Post-nerf Outlaw retune needed

[Yoshimiko]

Even there outlaw ST is as good as SuB ST till 870 ish gear... don'T pigeonholed yourself into 1 spec... you play rogue, a pure dps that makes you very felxible, if you to scared of having to switch depending on what the fight play a classe with 1 dps spec....

Oh, I'd LOVE to switch specs. Want to give me three 860-880 artifact relics and 300,000 artifact points? I don't know about you, but I haven't personally gotten off-spec artifact relics, in fear of getting stuck with an off-spec legendary, as has happened to a few of our guildies.

[Sephiroso]

Oh, I'd LOVE to switch specs. Want to give me three 860-880 artifact relics and 300,000 artifact points? I don't know about you, but I haven't personally gotten off-spec artifact relics, in fear of getting stuck with an off-spec legendary, as has happened to a few of our guildies.

Someone hasn't been doing WQ's then.

[Dryzz]

I have all 3 artefact to a good level... 15 in outlaw 16 in sins and 21 in subs, keeping 2 is even more viable, Sub/Outlaw or Sin/Outlaw are very strong Combo and where showing to be good combo from the start of the expac... Playing only one spec is YOUR choice, we knew form the start that it was doable and not very costly in term of point in MS to maintain 2 artefact.

https://felconcentration.wordpress.c...ing-artifacts/
https://felconcentration.wordpress.c...ing-artifacts/

Sorry you failed to see anything else than outlaw and thought it was going to be the strongest spec on everything....

We will talk again when u will get outDPS by people with full artifact unloked when u still try to keep 3artifact at same LvL.

Now is not a problem have 3 artifact at good level,late in Exp will be a problem.

[TheRealTish]

[QUOTE=Kalador;42576522]I have all 3 artefact to a good level... 15 in outlaw 16 in sins and 21 in subs, keeping 2 is even more viable, Sub/Outlaw or Sin/Outlaw are very strong Combo and where showing to be good combo from the start of the expac... Playing only one spec is YOUR choice, we knew form the start that it was doable and not very costly in term of point in MS to maintain 2 artefact.

[url]https://felconcentration.wordpress.com/2016/07/12/multispeccing

This couple potential REALLY hurt you in the long run if you continue to lvl all 3 that way. When we get to the 5% damage increase per rank traits, you're not going to want to be 3-4 ranks behind everyone else because you invested in 3 specs.

[Kalador]

Oh, I'd LOVE to switch specs. Want to give me three 860-880 artifact relics and 300,000 artifact points? I don't know about you, but I haven't personally gotten off-spec artifact relics, in fear of getting stuck with an off-spec legendary, as has happened to a few of our guildies.

It's not like outlaw is now pure crap... you're acting like there is nothing outside of sub now when it's clearly not the case. All 3 spec are perfectly fine. Outlaw still being the best ''swiss knife'' spec.

[Wow]

If adds are taking forever to die in mythic+ you're in a shit group. Also, doesn't matter how long it takes them to die, you can still MfD them all(most of them at least). You're a complete shit MfD sniper if you think outlaw aoe is dependant on good rtb buffs/greed procs.

If the mobs don't die you can't hit mfd again nothing you can do about that and given that last week mythic plus wanted you kill everything around the same time kind of makes a difference.

And you are really claiming you can run in no rtb's or greed procs on mobs that don't die in 5secs and do good aoe...

Keep in mind I'm not saying the spec doesn't have good aoe I'm saying the spec is heavily reliant rng on getting good aoe just like it is on st.

[Kalador]

vThis couple potential REALLY hurt you in the long run if you continue to lvl all 3 that way. When we get to the 5% damage increase per rank traits, you're not going to want to be 3-4 ranks behind everyone else because you invested in 3 specs.

Past the 1st point that give +5 % yes it is very costly to level more than one in terms of point into MS, but each point give 0.5% so it's a sacrifice you can chose to make, but we are far from it right now... i guess you didn't read the 2 doc i linked...

[Xanatu]

Past the 1st point that give +5 % yes it is very costly to level more than one in terms of point into MS, but each point give 0.5% so it's a sacrifice you can chose to make, but we are far from it right now... i guess you didn't read the 2 doc i linked...

Care to share your DPS logs of you swapping around with all 3 specs?

[Kalador]

We will talk again when u will get outDPS by people with full artifact unloked when u still try to keep 3artifact at same LvL.

Now is not a problem have 3 artifact at good level,late in Exp will be a problem.

Guess you didn't read the doc... You can maintaine 3 artefact without to much of a cost by leting them trail behind a bit. Yes you might be 2-3 trait behind people who went full into 1 spec, but it's somthing that give you flex on some fight and it's not going to make your main spec shit.

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Care to share your DPS logs of you swapping around with all 3 specs?

what my logs have to do with anything...

[shaunika123]

I mean I guess it's my opinion but it'd be a huge buff to the damage if the RNG wasn't as huge. The fluctuation on damage is too high and you can't reliably get the damage you need when you need it. The other specs can and that's another reason why outlaw isn't as high up anymore.

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I'm not talking about it from a "Fun" aspect. This thread is complaining about the fact that Outlaw's damage is low. This is partially due to RTB being so RNG based. Getting 1 buff which happens to be the worst or getting all 6 at once is just too high variance.

it's not low though
it's just not the best ever
im still doing good dmg on mythic progress atm

this whole "1 buff 6 buff" thing just screams ignorance
on a long 5-6 minute mythic fight it's not a big outlier

yes there's gonna be a high end and a low end but the average is good
and it's not like RPPM trinkets and shit like that didnt give certain classes insane variance before

[Xanatu]

Guess you didn't read the doc... You can maintaine 3 artefact without to much of a cost by leting them trail behind a bit. Yes you might be 2-3 trait behind people who went full into 1 spec, but it's somthing that give you flex on some fight and it's not going to make your main spec shit.

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what my logs have to do with anything...

You're talking about swapping around from spec to spec and keeping all of your artifacts leveled as if it's viable and won't impact your DPS. I'm asking for proof, because you're hurting yourself if you try to maintain 3 equal weapons, especially in terms of relics.

[Kalador]

You're talking about swapping around from spec to spec and keeping all of your artifacts leveled as if it's viable and won't impact your DPS. I'm asking for proof, because you're hurting yourself if you try to maintain 3 equal weapons, especially in terms of relics.

The viability in terms of artefacts point is mostly math about AK/AP and I linked 2 docs showing that leveling more than 1 artefacts as only minor impact in terms of amount of points in MS.. as for relics yes your main artefacts is probably going to end up with better relics than your offspec but that's up to you if you want to spend the time farming for offspec in mythic/Mythic+. The point is it's going to have minor impact on your MS will giving you the flex of offspec. You have the right to think I'm wrong but I'm not going to fall into a dick measuring contest as linking log would end up showing more about my skills than anything else...

[TheRealTish]

You're talking about swapping around from spec to spec and keeping all of your artifacts leveled as if it's viable and won't impact your DPS. I'm asking for proof, because you're hurting yourself if you try to maintain 3 equal weapons, especially in terms of relics.

^^^ Not mention the fact that you have 19 other players also try to obtain their gear and relics and one rouge maintaining 3 different specs for flexability wont fly until farm.

Also, the math has been posted regarding the costs of traits. The cost to get rank 2 of the damage% buff is more than the cost of maxing another full artifact. Which would put a pretty big handicap on a class that remains where we sit as it stands. I can see going to 15-17 in each, but maintaining all 3 with up to date relics and separate gear sets for all 3 is going to be implausible outside late farm.

[Xanatu]

^^^ Not mention the fact that you have 19 other players also try to obtain their gear and relics and one rouge maintaining 3 different specs for flexability wont fly until farm.

Also, the math has been posted regarding the costs of traits. The cost to get rank 2 of the damage% buff is more than the cost of maxing another full artifact. Which would put a pretty big handicap on a class that remains where we sit as it stands. I can see going to 15-17 in each, but maintaining all 3 with up to date relics and separate gear sets for all 3 is going to be implausible outside late farm.

Right, and it's not just traits. My whole gearing and relic strategy is Outlaw-based. Everything I have is designed around playing Outlaw rogue. It's not just "toss some AP into the other weapon", it's "collect 3 BIS relics, different trinkets, different gear", etc. This might be a bit hyperbolic since stats aren't THAT different from spec to spec right now but it's certainly not just "level your other weapon this week".

[ymirsson]

Right, and it's not just traits. My whole gearing and relic strategy is Outlaw-based. Everything I have is designed around playing Outlaw rogue. It's not just "toss some AP into the other weapon", it's "collect 3 BIS relics, different trinkets, different gear", etc. This might be a bit hyperbolic since stats aren't THAT different from spec to spec right now but it's certainly not just "level your other weapon this week".

Now imagine you had a healing off spec.

[Greylan]

Now imagine you had a healing off spec.

I imagine it not being a problem at all for someone maining DPS.

[Hctaz]

it's not low though
it's just not the best ever
im still doing good dmg on mythic progress atm

this whole "1 buff 6 buff" thing just screams ignorance
on a long 5-6 minute mythic fight it's not a big outlier

yes there's gonna be a high end and a low end but the average is good
and it's not like RPPM trinkets and shit like that didnt give certain classes insane variance before

No it isn't low but it's lower than sub which Blizzard said they wouldn't do. I'm not saying RTB is the reason why but I think the variance MIGHT play into it a bit. Blizzard maybe it balancing around stuff that doesn't seem to be happening in a real raiding environment.

[Deleted]

I imagine it not being a problem at all for someone maining DPS.

Then you didn't imagine it at all. The previous statement was to imagine not dumping all AP in one spec.

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We had a spec that was superior on ST, MT, cleave and overall utility. Now people are whining that "but Ion said!" in some Q&A taking his words verbatum as some kind of ultimate rule. That's not necessarily a bad thing to base decisions on, but people need to think for themselves a little bit. Of course there's going to be tuning. Of course there's going to be different specs being good in different situations. They're not going to leave one spec that much ahead of the rest for the entirety of an expansion because Ion said so once in a video, when they're talking again and again about the importance of broad class AND spec balance.

The nerfs to outlaw aren't even the main reason why the ranking of specs changes either, it's primarily buffs to the other specs. What makes you think that the specs are set in stone now? What makes you think you'll not see some adjustments to subtlety if it ends up vastly outshining the other specs in all aspects? What makes you think outlaw (or assassination) won't get buffed if it gets left in the dirt?

The sky is not falling

[shaunika123]

^^^ Not mention the fact that you have 19 other players also try to obtain their gear and relics and one rouge maintaining 3 different specs for flexability wont fly until farm.

Also, the math has been posted regarding the costs of traits. The cost to get rank 2 of the damage% buff is more than the cost of maxing another full artifact. Which would put a pretty big handicap on a class that remains where we sit as it stands. I can see going to 15-17 in each, but maintaining all 3 with up to date relics and separate gear sets for all 3 is going to be implausible outside late farm.

you know you can get relics for your offset from mythic+ for example right?

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No it isn't low but it's lower than sub which Blizzard said they wouldn't do. I'm not saying RTB is the reason why but I think the variance MIGHT play into it a bit. Blizzard maybe it balancing around stuff that doesn't seem to be happening in a real raiding environment.

can you quote me on blizzard saying outlaw wont be lower than sub?

all they said they'll try their best to make the specs stay as close as possible and instead of heavy nerf you could expect heavy buffs rather.

did you just expect them to intentionally leave sub worse for 2 whole years?

[Kpmk]

Actually we're back to only 1 viable spec, it's now sub. Outlaw is 100% useless without more tuning. There is NO reason to play this spec right now other than the fact that we're kind of stuck with it for EN.

Sure, if you're pushing for world first, you probably shouldn't go outlaw. Other than that, it is completely viable. Saying it is totally useless is just you throwing a temper tantrum.