Kuni's Frost Mage PVE Guide - 8.1.0

[nerfproof]

For me personally, not stacking haste and not going with ray of frost is a dps loss on almost every boss fight. There is always plenty of times where you can stay stationary long enough to get the complete cast off and when used with IV and RoP its amazing dmg.

[Ponkster]

Are you making false claims again? Top parses being what? top 5/10/100/200? You have any proof?

You know what I've concluded from all this? BS, to put it mildly... You're ripping kuni's guide by stating 'his missed some key things out that are important knowledge to the mage community'. What key things are you referring to? According to you; since you're clearly the superior mage here, why not write a frost guide with your own theory-crafting?

The fact that you've been following kuni's guides for years suggests you're full of yourself, mate. If you were as good as you claim to be, you wouldn't be following somebody else's guide and instead would've had one written by the time legion went live.

What does theory-crafting have to do with performance in raids?

I made my post because Kuni made a guide which was absolutely shocking minimal effort and had less information than the one that was on Altered-time.com or icy-veins.

He has added a lot since then (thanks to me pointing it out) and even said that he forgot to put the information in.

I don't direct films but I am allowed to have an opinion on them. It's called freedom of speech.

[SLSAMG]

What does theory-crafting have to do with performance in raids?

I made my post because Kuni made a guide which was absolutely shocking minimal effort and had less information than the one that was on Altered-time.com or icy-veins.

He has added a lot since then (thanks to me pointing it out) and even said that he forgot to put the information in.

I don't direct films but I am allowed to have an opinion on them. It's called freedom of speech.

Clearly you don't understand your freedom of speech rights. Because if you had, you'd know that free speech is only a thing between a government and its citizens, not between citizens.

[arcaneshot]

Apparently the blizzard team thinks frost is doing really well right now? They say it's because everyone is fire that it doesn't get noticed. I just don't see it at all tbh even if I were to dump ap into the frost artifact.

You absolutely need Chilled to the Core to see it, which most people won't have even if they Frost offspec. That's as opposed to Fire where you don't need to go nearly as far into the skill tree to get your superpower.

Frost in its current form is balanced around having that. The comparison to Surrender to Madness for Shadow Priests is very accurate.

[Ponkster]

Clearly you don't understand your freedom of speech rights. Because if you had, you'd know that free speech is only a thing between a government and its citizens, not between citizens.

Well where I'm from it also covers speech in the media or public forums.

Keep going though.

I have chilled to the core. Its still not good enough. Yes the burst is good, but fire is doing more burst and more consistent damage, especially with the wrists.

I agree that the frost tree has a lot of very good traits. The sims don't even take that into account though, i don't know the exact numbers but theres a limit on the traits points and its around the 2nd gold for each class.

[Haram]

Anybody know which of the following is true? In Kuni's frost mage guide, it states that Frost Bomb and Arctic Gale are pretty close to one-another, however on the IV guide, which is reviewed and approved by Kuni states that Arctic Gale is far behind, even so far as saying that with Zann'esu Journey, talenting into Arctic Gale is a significant DPS loss in both AoE and ST.

The reason why I ask this is because I find Arctic Gale to be the most fun talent in the tier. Unstable Magic is boring, and I don't like setting up for ice lances with Frost Bomb, whereas Arctic Gale allows me to add Blizzard into my rotation.

Also with Zann'esu Journey, do you want to be hard-casting flurry to rack up stacks and then dump them with Blizzard? Or do you wait until BF procs?

Edit: Going over Kuni's guide again, it states "Zann'esu Journey is the only one with an actual gameplay change tied to it. Basically you want to continue to cast Blizzard on cooldown until you get a stack. At which point you wait for 5 stacks before you cast Blizzard."

If we're casting Blizz on cooldown as it states, then I assume that is with Arctic Gale talented, so as to allow an increased amount of damage from Blizzard in our rotation. This again directly contradicts the IV guide which states that you should not talent into Arctic Gale with the legendary: "If this is the only legendary you have you should still use the stacks on Blizzard Icon Blizzard for single target, but talenting into Arctic Gale Icon Arctic Gale is a large DPS loss (on single-target or AOE)."

[Ponkster]

Anybody know which of the following is true? In Kuni's frost mage guide, it states that Frost Bomb and Arctic Gale are pretty close to one-another, however on the IV guide, which is reviewed and approved by Kuni states that Arctic Gale is far behind, even so far as saying that with Zann'esu Journey, talenting into Arctic Gale is a significant DPS loss in both AoE and ST.

The reason why I ask this is because I find Arctic Gale to be the most fun talent in the tier. Unstable Magic is boring, and I don't like setting up for ice lances with Frost Bomb, whereas Arctic Gale allows me to add Blizzard into my rotation.

Also with Zann'esu Journey, do you want to be hard-casting flurry to rack up stacks and then dump them with Blizzard? Or do you wait until BF procs?

Edit: Going over Kuni's guide again, it states "Zann'esu Journey is the only one with an actual gameplay change tied to it. Basically you want to continue to cast Blizzard on cooldown until you get a stack. At which point you wait for 5 stacks before you cast Blizzard."

If we're casting Blizz on cooldown as it states, then I assume that is with Arctic Gale talented, so as to allow an increased amount of damage from Blizzard in our rotation. This again directly contradicts the IV guide which states that you should not talent into Arctic Gale with the legendary: "If this is the only legendary you have you should still use the stacks on Blizzard Icon Blizzard for single target, but talenting into Arctic Gale Icon Arctic Gale is a large DPS loss (on single-target or AOE)."

Looking at logs mages with frost bomb are doing better than AG. The talent might not scale very well with the legendary but I don't have it to try

[Zakatt]

Anybody know which of the following is true? In Kuni's frost mage guide, it states that Frost Bomb and Arctic Gale are pretty close to one-another, however on the IV guide, which is reviewed and approved by Kuni states that Arctic Gale is far behind, even so far as saying that with Zann'esu Journey, talenting into Arctic Gale is a significant DPS loss in both AoE and ST.

The reason why I ask this is because I find Arctic Gale to be the most fun talent in the tier. Unstable Magic is boring, and I don't like setting up for ice lances with Frost Bomb, whereas Arctic Gale allows me to add Blizzard into my rotation.

Also with Zann'esu Journey, do you want to be hard-casting flurry to rack up stacks and then dump them with Blizzard? Or do you wait until BF procs?

Edit: Going over Kuni's guide again, it states "Zann'esu Journey is the only one with an actual gameplay change tied to it. Basically you want to continue to cast Blizzard on cooldown until you get a stack. At which point you wait for 5 stacks before you cast Blizzard."

If we're casting Blizz on cooldown as it states, then I assume that is with Arctic Gale talented, so as to allow an increased amount of damage from Blizzard in our rotation. This again directly contradicts the IV guide which states that you should not talent into Arctic Gale with the legendary: "If this is the only legendary you have you should still use the stacks on Blizzard Icon Blizzard for single target, but talenting into Arctic Gale Icon Arctic Gale is a large DPS loss (on single-target or AOE)."

The Icy Veins Guide is pre-hotfix I believe. Blizzard was really bad then - thus arctic gale, too.
If you look at the recent Simulationcraft frost mage rotation you see that it uses Blizzard - even when specced into Frostbomb.

[Haram]

The Icy Veins Guide is pre-hotfix I believe. Blizzard was really bad then - thus arctic gale, too.
If you look at the recent Simulationcraft frost mage rotation you see that it uses Blizzard - even when specced into Frostbomb.

Ah okay, thanks for the help!

So the way to go is cast blizz on cooldown in ST situations as well, and especially with AG.

So back to the legendary: Does Kuni mean to say to hard-cast Flurry to get the stack for increased blizzard damage, or are we still strictly using flurry on BF procs? Also I assume that AG is a DPS loss with the legendary as we want to hold off on Blizzard until we get max stacks, which nullifies the importance of 100% uptime on blizzard for AG.

[Deleted]

Ah okay, thanks for the help!

So the way to go is cast blizz on cooldown in ST situations as well, and especially with AG.

As I recall, you want to cast it on cooldown but not go out of your way to do it, it's still a filler spell like frostbolt. Switch a frostbolt cast for a blizzard one. And one of the main reasons you would use it on single targets is because of the 7-8 ticks of damage it does, each of which has a 5% chance to proc Fingers of Frost. Which means another ice lance to blow up frost bomb with. Not sure how it works with artic gale. Might be the whole mastery thing people talked about on altered-time.

[Jessicka]

I got Lady Vashj's Grasp, and I'm only half excited. I feel locked into the talent choice of Bone Chilling+Thermal Void, because the legendary's passive fits long Icy Veins uptime just too well to consider other talents. I'm even afraid to take Ray of Frost for fear of wasting FoFs. I'd love to just play without Thermal Void, but then LVG goes from 10+ free FoFs...to two. Seems kind of lame, and given today's discussion that the dev team is open to reworking legendaries, I can't help but wonder if LVG will be changed to be less talent-constricting.

Yeah, got those too. Slightly underwhelming since I much prefer playing with Comet Storm, but given that there are legendaries out there that are genuinely useless beyond ilvl/stats it's hard to complain.

[Deleted]

Ah okay, thanks for the help!

So the way to go is cast blizz on cooldown in ST situations as well, and especially with AG.

So back to the legendary: Does Kuni mean to say to hard-cast Flurry to get the stack for increased blizzard damage, or are we still strictly using flurry on BF procs? Also I assume that AG is a DPS loss with the legendary as we want to hold off on Blizzard until we get max stacks, which nullifies the importance of 100% uptime on blizzard for AG.

I fail to understand why we should bank for 5 stacks before casting Blizzard, except for a burst phase with or without adds. Why don't we just continue casting on cooldown.

Casting 5 Blizzard with 1 stack is the same additionnal damage from the legendary than one Blizzard with 5 stacks right? Except on the later you lose DPS from not casting Blizzard on CD.

Someone enlighten me please.

On a side note, am I the only one not liking casting Blizzard every ~ 6 sec because it makes it harder to keep stacks of Chain Reaction?

Oh and one more question, I am at work right now so can't check but I always wondered if we had to actually cast Blizzard on cooldown or when the previous one is over? If I'm not mistaking, with high haste (so low CD on Blizzard), casting a Blizzard overrides the previous one so it won't do all its ticks. So... DPS loss on cd?

[Ponkster]

I fail to understand why we should bank for 5 stacks before casting Blizzard, except for a burst phase with or without adds. Why don't we just continue casting on cooldown.

Casting 5 Blizzard with 1 stack is the same additionnal damage from the legendary than one Blizzard with 5 stacks right? Except on the later you lose DPS from not casting Blizzard on CD.

Someone enlighten me please.

On a side note, am I the only one not liking casting Blizzard every ~ 6 sec because it makes it harder to keep stacks of Chain Reaction?

Oh and one more question, I am at work right now so can't check but I always wondered if we had to actually cast Blizzard on cooldown or when the previous one is over? If I'm not mistaking, with high haste (so low CD on Blizzard), casting a Blizzard overrides the previous one so it won't do all its ticks. So... DPS loss on cd?

I believe chain reaction is really important and should have as much up time as possible.

[Deleted]

I agree, and that's why I find Ebonbolt and Blizzard annoying to use. They are very likely to break your stacks of Chain reaction. Unless under TW and/or Icy Veins.

[Haram]

I agree, and that's why I find Ebonbolt and Blizzard annoying to use. They are very likely to break your stacks of Chain reaction. Unless under TW and/or Icy Veins.

I very much assumed that Chain Reaction wasn't something to actively keep track of, and was mostly used as a set and forget.

- - - Updated - - -

I fail to understand why we should bank for 5 stacks before casting Blizzard, except for a burst phase with or without adds. Why don't we just continue casting on cooldown.

Casting 5 Blizzard with 1 stack is the same additionnal damage from the legendary than one Blizzard with 5 stacks right? Except on the later you lose DPS from not casting Blizzard on CD.

Someone enlighten me please.

On a side note, am I the only one not liking casting Blizzard every ~ 6 sec because it makes it harder to keep stacks of Chain Reaction?

Oh and one more question, I am at work right now so can't check but I always wondered if we had to actually cast Blizzard on cooldown or when the previous one is over? If I'm not mistaking, with high haste (so low CD on Blizzard), casting a Blizzard overrides the previous one so it won't do all its ticks. So... DPS loss on cd?

But at the same time with Frost Bomb, you have to weave in Blizzard and Frost Bomb in your rotation as well, meaning you're even less likely to be able to take advantage of Chain Reaction. At least with Arctic Gale, you get rid of the rotation-cast of Frost Bomb since you'll be casting Blizzard in your rotation in any case. As Kuni says in this guide, FB and AG are close in damage with FB having the added benefit of allowing for burst phases. As for your second point, I'm not sure. I assume that Blizz damage stacks right? Meaning when you have 2 blizz on a target, both are ticking damage.

- - - Updated - - -

For me personally, not stacking haste and not going with ray of frost is a dps loss on almost every boss fight. There is always plenty of times where you can stay stationary long enough to get the complete cast off and when used with IV and RoP its amazing dmg.

Really? BC with TV always sims higher for me in 5min raid fights. Even with sims on a patchwerk fight where RoF would never be interrupted BC outshines it.

[LordAmbrosia]

IReally? BC with TV always sims higher for me in 5min raid fights. Even with sims on a patchwerk fight where RoF would never be interrupted BC outshines it.

I believe they were getting at the concept that BV always sims higher, but in actual practice RoF performs better. Kuni said something similar on the last patch. Personally it seems like the sims are off and I wouldn't be surprised if RoF is the better talent.

About chain reaction, there's no way we are expected to keep it up right? It only lasts 6 seconds, and only procs on a crit. You delay your FoF generating cooldowns way to much by trying to weave in 2+ frostbolts every 6 seconds. I can't see ever having good uptime on it, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Haram]

I believe they were getting at the concept that BV always sims higher, but in actual practice RoF performs better. Kuni said something similar on the last patch. Personally it seems like the sims are off and I wouldn't be surprised if RoF is the better talent.

About chain reaction, there's no way we are expected to keep it up right? It only lasts 6 seconds, and only procs on a crit. You delay your FoF generating cooldowns way to much by trying to weave in 2+ frostbolts every 6 seconds. I can't see ever having good uptime on it, correct me if I'm wrong.

I actually enjoy RoF more as well, but the issue I'm having with it is pairing RoF with TV. In this regard, you don't want to be using RoF with IV simply because you will lose uptime % on your IV by not casting anything that could generate Icelances for the first 10 seconds. Of course in that situation, you would then want to cast RoF before throwing out Frozen Orb and popping IV, but you are then delaying IV by 10 seconds at the beginning of every fight, which could potentially cost you a lost IV in the entire run.

I would say the best RoF usage would be when hero is being used right at the beginning of a fight

[Deleted]

About chain reaction, there's no way we are expected to keep it up right? It only lasts 6 seconds, and only procs on a crit. You delay your FoF generating cooldowns way to much by trying to weave in 2+ frostbolts every 6 seconds. I can't see ever having good uptime on it, correct me if I'm wrong.

Well of course it's impossible to have 100% uptime on Chain Reaction, maybe if we had crazy amount of Crit (actually with Fire Mage stuff, we should have like 60% crit on Frostbolt with our artifact trait so... why not ). It lasts 6 seconds and duration refreshes on proc, so yeah it's as stressful and tedious as NT-spam Quickening Arcane mage but I can't see why this trait shouldn't be played around. Even more since Ice Lance are our number 1 source of damage (barring Ray of Frost).

Anyway, Chain Reaction 100% uptime is essentially useless and only need to be maxed before throwing FoFs. So the mindset is to keep casting Frostbolt to fish for stacks of Chain Reaction until either :
- You reach 3 stacks of Chain Reaction and throw all your current Ice Lances.
- You reach 3 Finger of Frost but less than 3 Chain Reaction. Throw ONE Ice Lance and continue fishing for Chain Reaction stacks.
- or Finger of Frost timer is running out, so you throw everything regardless of Chain Reaction stacks.

If you follow this priorities, bearing in mind that generating cooldowns (Frozen Orbs, Frozen Touch) are still top priority over Chain Reaction, you shouldn't be wasting cooldowns nor procs of FoFs. If I'm not mistaking.

Once again, I can be wrong but when I look at Chain Reaction, it looks too important to be a "set and forget".

I'm not that good with sims, I don't have Fire mage stuff, but I would really like to try a heavy crit build for fun (Frostbolt crits are so valuable for Chain Reaction and Frozen Veins...)

I actually enjoy RoF more as well, but the issue I'm having with it is pairing RoF with TV. In this regard, you don't want to be using RoF with IV simply because you will lose uptime % on your IV by not casting anything that could generate Icelances for the first 10 seconds. Of course in that situation, you would then want to cast RoF before throwing out Frozen Orb and popping IV, but you are then delaying IV by 10 seconds at the beginning of every fight, which could potentially cost you a lost IV in the entire run.

I would say the best RoF usage would be when hero is being used right at the beginning of a fight

But at the same time, RoF benefits very much of Icy Veins' haste, and Chilled to the Core on RoF is huge. Actually, RoF is always my top damage spell when I use it with RoP and IV. Not to mention the opener with RoP IV and Bloodlust is awesome, it feels amazing to match Fire Mage opener .

[Haram]

Well of course it's -snip-

Do you use a TMW / WA to track Chain Reaction?

I actually strayed away from Fire specifically because I don't enjoy using RoP. When I heard that IF and RoP are close for Frost due to Frost having pretty even damage throughout rather than high/low that Arcane and Fire have, I was happy to switch over. Even so, I assume that RoF with IV and/or lust with Chilled (which I still have to unlock - new mage) would be stellar. In that case, is it still worth taking TV? Or would CS be better for the final talent tier?

I enjoy how frost has so many different talent combination and options, but at the same time trying to math it all out and figure out which combinations are best for each situation is mind-boggling.

Edit: Just tried a few trials on a dummy to maximize usage of Icelance during Chain Reaction, and with TV it definitely puts a lot more micromanagement on your part to maintain IV uptime as well as try to maintain using Icelance within the CR window. I also had difficulty when I would get 3 stacks of CR but not being able to use any icelance generators (Frozen Orb, Ebonbolt, Water Jet, Frozen Touch) because I was setting up for my next IV, which is required when talenting into TV. I genuinely think that for 90%+ of people including myself, CR would be best left as a set and forget rather than adjusting your rotation to maximize benefit from it. Similar to IF in that regard. Not to mention on top of all that also weaving in Frost Bomb and Blizzard rotationally, and you got one messy priority system.

[LordAmbrosia]

Anyway, Chain Reaction 100% uptime is essentially useless and only need to be maxed before throwing FoFs. So the mindset is to keep casting Frostbolt to fish for stacks of Chain Reaction until either :
- You reach 3 stacks of Chain Reaction and throw all your current Ice Lances.
- You reach 3 Finger of Frost but less than 3 Chain Reaction. Throw ONE Ice Lance and continue fishing for Chain Reaction stacks.
- or Finger of Frost timer is running out, so you throw everything regardless of Chain Reaction stacks.

The problem with trying to do this, is there are SO MANY sources of FoF that optimizing them all like this seems impossible. Ebonchill, Water Jet, Winter's Touch, Frozen Orb, Blizzard ticks... keeping all these on cooldown without wasting FoF charges or using FoF without any Chain Reaction is completely impossible. It gets even harder when you factor in needing to have frost bomb up for all the FoF chains.

But, I do agree that if you have NO cds available you should fish for procs before using your extra lances, that makes sense.

About RoF with TV, I haven't really seen discussion about this, but maybe you would want to pop IV, and blaze through all of your FoF cooldowns as quick as possible, and then channel RoF during the downtime, then you can keep extending IV after it finishes. It delays RoF but the extra seconds of IV seem better.