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  1. #201
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Terykats View Post
    I might be wrong on my calculations, but I am not sure the Chain Reaction is actually a nerf since:

    Ice Lance buffed from 89.3% of spellpower to 120%

    So now Ice Lance does 89.3% * 3 (FoF) = 267.90% of spell power
    Say you are at 3 stacks of Chain Reaction at an extra 60% = 428.64% of spell power
    (at one stack 321.48%, two stacks 375.06% of sp)

    With the change Ice Lance does 120%*3 (FoF)=360% of spell power
    At 3 stacks of Chain Reaction an extra 30%=468% of spell power
    (at one stack 396%, two stacks 432% of sp)

    Like i said I might be wrong on my calculation, but to me it seems like quite a decent buff. Even at two stacks the damage will be more than the damage of 3 stacks pre-change.
    It's not ment to be a nerf, the change is to make the spec less dependent on maintaining 3x stacks as currently it is far to punishing if they drop or you get bad rng. Rejoice now the non-cyborgs amongst us may actually get close to the sims :P

    The extra damage is also no doubt been shifted from frostbolt, which was becoming too strong the more haste/crit we gained.

  2. #202
    just got the legendary belt, what is the correct usage of this belt? get 5 stacks then blizzard?

  3. #203
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    It's not ment to be a nerf, the change is to make the spec less dependent on maintaining 3x stacks as currently it is far to punishing if they drop or you get bad rng. Rejoice now the non-cyborgs amongst us may actually get close to the sims :P

    The extra damage is also no doubt been shifted from frostbolt, which was becoming too strong the more haste/crit we gained.
    well, considering how the current PTR iteration of frost is 100% praying for rng FoF proccs to keep up icy veins uptime It's kinda strange how they try to decrease the actual mitigatable randomness of chain reaction while entirely removing the consistency and player input of the rest of the specc devolving it into Frozen orb + water jet and then essentially mindlessly spamming frostbolts until they are off cd.

  4. #204
    updated post above with more changes pointed out above (sorry it took a bit, was busy last night)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Egeras View Post
    well, considering how the current PTR iteration of frost is 100% praying for rng FoF proccs to keep up icy veins uptime It's kinda strange how they try to decrease the actual mitigatable randomness of chain reaction while entirely removing the consistency and player input of the rest of the specc devolving it into Frozen orb + water jet and then essentially mindlessly spamming frostbolts until they are off cd.
    I think what they're doing is giving the spec two different builds, as players already seem to be trying that anyway. Looks like they're more supporting it and removing the FoF randomness dependence.

    If you want to go with a Thermal Void/Ice Lance/Fingers of Frost build, you take Frozen Touch as your Level 60. This smooths out the FoF generation and makes it more frequent and dependable.

    If you want to go with a Glacial Spike build, you take Splitting Ice instead, since you don't really care too much about FoF generation, and possibly also Lonely Winter as well.

    Unsure where you're going if you are doing a Ray of Frost build.

    And still unsure from where we're generating any AoE damage worth a crap.

  5. #205
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ham on Rye View Post
    updated post above with more changes pointed out above (sorry it took a bit, was busy last night)

    - - - Updated - - -



    I think what they're doing is giving the spec two different builds, as players already seem to be trying that anyway. Looks like they're more supporting it and removing the FoF randomness dependence.

    If you want to go with a Thermal Void/Ice Lance/Fingers of Frost build, you take Frozen Touch as your Level 60. This smooths out the FoF generation and makes it more frequent and dependable.

    If you want to go with a Glacial Spike build, you take Splitting Ice instead, since you don't really care too much about FoF generation, and possibly also Lonely Winter as well.

    Unsure where you're going if you are doing a Ray of Frost build.

    And still unsure from where we're generating any AoE damage worth a crap.
    This^

    With relics and increasing haste IV uptime was getting pretty ridiculous as well, which will only get stronger and scale out of control.

    Also to add onto your point about RoF, i was hoping that they would make comet storm baseline, to help out with AoE then they could have replaced CS with RoF, thus giving three distinct builds based on your lvl 100 talents and made a new talent for row 15

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    Also to add onto your point about RoF, i was hoping that they would make comet storm baseline, to help out with AoE then they could have replaced CS with RoF, thus giving three distinct builds based on your lvl 100 talents and made a new talent for row 15
    This surprised me also. For how much damage Ray of Frost does, and for how large a percentage it contributes to your overall damage, and for how much it generally changes the playstyle and your gearing, it seems that it makes more sense as a level 100 talent than a level 15 one.

  7. #207
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ham on Rye View Post
    updated post above with more changes pointed out above (sorry it took a bit, was busy last night)

    - - - Updated - - -
    moving the FoF randomness dependence.

    If you want to go with a Thermal Void/Ice Lance/Fingers of Frost build, you take Frozen Touch as your Level 60. This smooths out the FoF generation and makes it more frequent and dependable.
    Dunno from my testing on the PTR with TV build I loose about 40-60 seconds uptime compared to live on each icy veins entirely dependant on RNG it's actually way worse on the PTR compared to on live due to the lack of consistency. Also even worse is how the new frozen touch removes even more of player interraction with FoF generation and how you set up your coming FoF generators. It's actually rather awful to play as it feels like there's no difference between playstyles other than gear and RNG in it's current iteration (as you spam so many frostbolts you constantly have 3/3 chain reactions) meaning there is nothing to manage as a player other than pray for FoFs and using them when you start capping out. rather dreadful to play in the current state really.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Egeras View Post
    Dunno from my testing on the PTR with TV build I loose about 40-60 seconds uptime compared to live on each icy veins entirely dependant on RNG it's actually way worse on the PTR compared to on live due to the lack of consistency. Also even worse is how the new frozen touch removes even more of player interraction with FoF generation and how you set up your coming FoF generators. It's actually rather awful to play as it feels like there's no difference between playstyles other than gear and RNG in it's current iteration (as you spam so many frostbolts you constantly have 3/3 chain reactions) meaning there is nothing to manage as a player other than pray for FoFs and using them when you start capping out. rather dreadful to play in the current state really.
    This is my experience as well. I posted this on Altered Time and will mirror it here:

    What was once a smooth, reliable, and predictable rotation has turned into an RNG infested inconsistent nightmare. You're often in a drought with nothing to extend IV, and end with an IV that lasted barely a minute, whereupon the dice rolls then give you all those FoF procs after IV has already ended.

    Instead of six guaranteed Ice Lances every minute (two from Ebonbolt, and four from Frozen Touch), we now get what seems to be a high chance to get procs, except it's a multiplicative increase, so what appears to be a massive buff is only a 4.8% increased chance for Frostbolt to give us FoF. Overall, it's a massive nerf to TV and is exacerbated by the loss of the haste buff from Frost Armor. Very disappointing.
    Last edited by aznxk3vi17; 2016-11-16 at 05:36 PM.

  9. #209
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by aznxk3vi17 View Post
    This is my experience as well. I posted this on Altered Time and will mirror it here:

    What was once a smooth, reliable, and predictable rotation has turned into an RNG infested inconsistent nightmare. You're often in a drought with nothing to extend IV, and end with an IV that lasted barely a minute, whereupon the dice rolls then give you all those FoF procs after IV has already ended.

    Instead of six guaranteed Ice Lances every minute (two from Ebonbolt, and four from Frozen Touch), we now get what seems to be a high chance to get procs, except it's a multiplicative increase, so what appears to be a massive buff is only a 4.8% increased chance for Frostbolt to give us FoF. Overall, it's a massive nerf to TV and is exacerbated by the loss of the haste buff from Frost Armor. Very disappointing.
    Good that I am not the only one, kinda disheartening to see these massive mechanical changes for the worse as I have a hunch the frost mage community is not large enough for the required collective whining to get them to change much for the better .

  10. #210
    Herald of the Titans Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    I don't know if you guys quite understand the history of TV, but every time the uptime has been stupidly high, it gets nerfed in some fashion. The talent is not supposed to take an 11-16% uptime buff and extend it to 70%+. I've been seeing ~45% on PTR, and I suspect that's still too high for their liking.

    The spec should function without absurd uptime on the spec's main DPS cooldown.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    I don't know if you guys quite understand the history of TV, but every time the uptime has been stupidly high, it gets nerfed in some fashion. The talent is not supposed to take an 11-16% uptime buff and extend it to 70%+. I've been seeing ~45% on PTR, and I suspect that's still too high for their liking.

    The spec should function without absurd uptime on the spec's main DPS cooldown.
    I agree, but the problem is that their changes take out all semblance of fun and interaction with the spec. It takes away our control. It drastically reduces our APM, and it ends up feeling like Beast Mastery: hit things on cooldown and hope for procs. Instead of changing both Ebonbolt and Frozen Touch, they could have changed Thermal Void to increase IV by 1 second instead, which would cut down on uptime but give us the control we need for potential burst windows.

  12. #212
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by aznxk3vi17 View Post
    I agree, but the problem is that their changes take out all semblance of fun and interaction with the spec. It takes away our control. It drastically reduces our APM, and it ends up feeling like Beast Mastery: hit things on cooldown and hope for procs. Instead of changing both Ebonbolt and Frozen Touch, they could have changed Thermal Void to increase IV by 1 second instead, which would cut down on uptime but give us the control we need for potential burst windows.
    Agreed. Changing focus from using abilities to just praying even more for proccs does not seem like engaging changes no matter what they want to nerf. And nerfing something by making it less interactive does not seem like the way to go.
    Last edited by mmocbefc549a55; 2016-11-16 at 06:58 PM.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by noimawizard View Post
    just got the legendary belt, what is the correct usage of this belt? get 5 stacks then blizzard?
    Pretty much, yes. I would make a WA to track the duration because there have been times when I was waiting for it to reach 5 stacks and I wasn't playing attention and it wore off at 3 stacks.

    So don't be scared to use Blizzard if the buff is about to fall off even if you're not at 5 stacks.

  14. #214
    Deleted
    Just got Magtheridon's Banished Bracers yesterday. Think this might have been answered before but can't find where: is it worth using a non-FoF ice lance to maintain the 6 stacks if they are about to drop? Thinking specifically of situations where water jet or frozen orb is about to come off cd, so you know an ice lance within the following 8 seconds will have a FoF buff.

  15. #215
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by DanikSky View Post
    Just got Magtheridon's Banished Bracers yesterday. Think this might have been answered before but can't find where: is it worth using a non-FoF ice lance to maintain the 6 stacks if they are about to drop? Thinking specifically of situations where water jet or frozen orb is about to come off cd, so you know an ice lance within the following 8 seconds will have a FoF buff.
    I think the general consensus IIRC was it was more important to maintain your Chain Reaction stacks so it was a no, coupled with the fact that you could be losing out on brain freeze procs as well, tho i could be wrong.

  16. #216
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    I think the general consensus IIRC was it was more important to maintain your Chain Reaction stacks so it was a no, coupled with the fact that you could be losing out on brain freeze procs as well, tho i could be wrong.
    Right, I see. I remember reading before that it wasn't worth it, and that makes sense as to why.

    Regarding the upcoming changes, things seem mostly positive. Hopefully a glacial spike build will be viable with the buff. The one thing I was personally hoping for most was that the cleave aspect of splitting ice would be made baseline, maybe at the old 50% value, and the talent would buff this existing effect and icicles. Still, early days yet, maybe there will be some more changes coming.

  17. #217
    With the Blizzard nerf is it now only worth casting for AoE?

    A lot of people on the official forums are angry about the FoF prof chance change and claims it makes us too RNG dependent. Is it really that bad?

  18. #218
    Herald of the Titans Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Blizzard should be AOE only outside of AG. AG might actually need a buff to keep it there, we'll see I guess.

    People are claiming that FoF generation is too RNG now because it killed off TV extending IV to 70%+. That was the entire point of the changes.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    Blizzard should be AOE only outside of AG. AG might actually need a buff to keep it there, we'll see I guess.

    People are claiming that FoF generation is too RNG now because it killed off TV extending IV to 70%+. That was the entire point of the changes.
    That's fine and dandy, but it completely killed the fun of the spec. Spamming Frostbolts and praying for procs is not enjoyable, engaging, or rewarding gameplay. It makes your dps feel separate from your skill, after all: what separates a good Frost player from a mediocre one in 7.1.5? One got luckier with his dice rolls.

    They could have simply removed passive FoF generation during IV, reduced the time extension per lance, or similar, instead they chose to remove control in place of the RNG they're in love with this expansion.

    Is there any idea what would be the ideal build moving forward? It just feels like overall, Frost got nerfed in single target, and with absolutely no changes to our dreadful AoE, seems like Frost is just not as good (and more importantly for me, less fun). I guess they want us to play Arcane?

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by aznxk3vi17 View Post
    what separates a good Frost player from a mediocre one in 7.1.5? One got luckier with his dice rolls.
    On any given day? Sure. But luck does even out over time as the sample size of encounters gets larger, and as a result the good player will finish ahead of the mediocre one more often than not.

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