[Shadow PvE]Why you should play STM(Surrender to Madness)

[Ashandra]

Hello my shadow friends !

Little disclaimer: i don't pretend i'm the best SP nor the best DPS, i think i have a good raiding experience and
played SP for quite a long time. Remember, this MY opinion and only MINE

I've seen that a lot of you have troubles to get DPS in raiding and dungeons (and a lots of you are asking for help on forums).

I was on the same mood last week, asking me why I should play SP ? I love the gameplay, it's a really challenging and rewarding one (don't attempt to do some damage while spamming one/two keys or reroll mage) and moreover it's FUN ! But even if I trained a lot, get almost perfect rotation/cycle, optimizing every seconds of fights I couldn't reach top dps .
I was playing Legacy of the Void and this was my mistake... LoV is good, but if you have an homogeneous raid (where all players have the same skill) you'll be a mid-tier caster for almost all fight (and you ll cry in full mono combat *hello Ursoc*).

I've tried Mind Spikes (even with the up previous week), still really weak, but usable on small & long duration pack (less then 5 adds)
Don't use it (or prepare your e-penis to shrink)

So the last one: Surrender to Madness ! One of the coolest/lorest/powerful talent in the game, you can surrender to your artifact whispers !

So why you should take StM ?
You 'll reveal the true power of shadow, and get the most powerful exec phase in the game. SP is, by default, the king of <20% (<35% if you take RoS), with StM correctly played and timed, you can earn more than 80k dps with this phase (even in mono *welcome back Ursoc*)
Just watch SP logs, and see how much damage they get on exec phase ... StM just fill perfectly with it

Is StM hard to play ?
It's harder than LoV or MS but not because it require a lot of skill, but because you need to have a good knowledge of SP rotation (and moreover VF rotation) and the most important thing you need to know the fights ! At ~40+ stacks one mistake, you die ! (remember that you can cast while moving if StM is active).

Can I play LoV instead of StM ?
I really don't like LoV, it's a great talent for mob bashing (questing and trash) but on bosses this talent is almost useless. the first reason is what is said upper, LoV is mid-tier. the seconde reason is ... you'll almost never go in VF with 70 insanity. To go VF at 70 insanity you should be on a perfect case (MB off CD, Dots over 6 sec on targetS, less then 15 sec Cd on Void Torrent, some spirit to generate missing Insanity). If you're not VF'll vanish really early (can be less than 20 stacks VF ...).
While i was playing this talent, i always go VF at ~85/90 insanity so you 'lose' 1/3 to 2/3 of your talent power

So even if I don't master the StM i should go for it ?
I would recommend it

Is StM viable in MM+ ?
I've played a lot with LoV/Void Lord for MM & MM+ ... You're a little better on thrash but you still one of the weakest class for burst AoE. I've tried StM recently in MM+ and you just rocks on bosses (you can STM at 35% easy). So SP can be really good if you play with AoE class and SP can burst bosses.
My advice here is to play LoV/Void Lord for starting MM, once you've learn your VF rotation, just go StM and RoS




Little Lexicon:
StM = Surrender to Madness
MS = Mind Spikes
LoV = Legacy of the Void (hello Starcraft)
RoS = Reaper of Souls (hello Diablo)
VF = Void Form

[Deleted]

If you want to play S2M on mythic+ bosses (given boss is s2m friendly), you basically want to S2M right on pull, unless it's really high level with bossfight lasting 2 min+.

[Deleted]

While I do know that it probably is superior to the other two choices in most situations, I still usually don't pick it. Simply because I don't like playing with it. Be it because I occasionally make mistakes in the rotation, or because it just feels too stressful overall.

That said, I only play 5-man content (including Mythic+), so raids aren't a relevant factor for me.

[zito]

If you want to play S2M on mythic+ bosses (given boss is s2m friendly), you basically want to S2M right on pull, unless it's really high level with bossfight lasting 2 min+.

Does S2M death counts toward the timer penalty? I have not actually seen a shadow priest use it in mythic +

[Djriff]

StM is so broken it's ridiculous. In terms of the lvl 100 talents, you either take StM, or you just don't take a talent at all. LotV provides a very marginal DPS increase over not having a talent, and MSp is still clunky when it comes to higher levels of haste.

That aside, if you aren't playing StM you are seriously gimping your DPS.

[Daveydave]

StM is so broken it's ridiculous. In terms of the lvl 100 talents, you either take StM, or you just don't take a talent at all. LotV provides a very marginal DPS increase over not having a talent, and MSp is still clunky when it comes to higher levels of haste.

That aside, if you aren't playing StM you are seriously gimping your DPS.

When i'm doing dungeons on my own without my friends I don't like to take StM in case I don't get resurrected after the fight. Would you say I just need to do it anyway and hope for the the best?

Plus its a shame food effects don't last beyond death but not a major deal breaker I guess.

[Djriff]

When i'm doing dungeons on my own without my friends I don't like to take StM in case I don't get resurrected after the fight. Would you say I just need to do it anyway and hope for the the best?

Plus its a shame food effects don't last beyond death but not a major deal breaker I guess.

No, unless your group is coordinating StM death into decreased time on boss, then it's not worth it for mythic +. Personally I run LotV and Void Ray in dungeons and do alright.

[anon5123]

Yeah, STM's problem is that it's way better than the other two talents, and the death effect is just an annoying hassle. But oh "class fantasy class fantasy"....

[Djriff]

Yeah, STM's problem is that it's way better than the other two talents, and the death effect is just an annoying hassle. But oh "class fantasy class fantasy"....

Just to be clear, I haven't met a priest that agrees the death effect is a good thing.

[Daveydave]

I really like the idea of the talent but the death effect is a bit much. Do you think it would be better if it automatically rez you after the fight perhaps? I wonder how they will change it in 7.1 if they do.

[Phalamore]

No, unless your group is coordinating StM death into decreased time on boss, then it's not worth it for mythic +. Personally I run LotV and Void Ray in dungeons and do alright.

I could have sworn that after the mind spike buffs, you were saying that mind spike + void ray was the best way to go in M+. Does that still hold true or is mind spike a no pick talent even in M+?

[spiritsurge]

I could have sworn that after the mind spike buffs, you were saying that mind spike + void ray was the best way to go in M+. Does that still hold true or is mind spike a no pick talent even in M+?

Honestly I've used Mind Spike and it's not bad but LotV is easier to use and has better use on trash pulls. I've always liked Mind Spike and hoped we could use it more but LotV will probably get you more overall value in mythic+.

[Djriff]

I could have sworn that after the mind spike buffs, you were saying that mind spike + void ray was the best way to go in M+. Does that still hold true or is mind spike a no pick talent even in M+?

It's hit or miss depending on the dungeon. Mindsear is pretty insane on trash with dots rolling which is one of mind spike's strengths (aoe damage). It may still be an increase, but atm I just prefer the smoothness of mind flay over spike.

[Linri]

dying at the end is still kinda weird to me, yeah i get it, but i'd rather take a 30 second stun which i am unable to do anything in, if i screw up... or maybe get stuck at 1hp...

[anon5123]

Just to be clear, I haven't met a priest that agrees the death effect is a good thing.

And I've had multiple people tell me that it should stay, because "class fantasy".

"class fantasy" should be fun and interesting mechanics, not frustrating and hindering mechanics. This isn't vanilla, we've moved on past the time of spells and abilities being frustrating in various ways. (insane cooldowns, reagents, etc) I enjoy no longer having to farm Light Feather, or waste bag slots on Holy Candle.

Hell, STM having a 10 minute cooldown is already excessive, seeing as most other DPS cooldowns are 3 minutes or 5 minutes.

Blizz needs to nerf STM (and buff the other two 100 talents), remove the death effect and give it a 3-5 minute CD. No reason why an already mediocre DPS needs to have an obscenely long cooldown on what is pretty much its only big cooldown.

[Woop Woop]

Just to be clear, I haven't met a priest that agrees the death effect is a good thing.

Here's to hoping that particular part of StM meets the nerfhammer. Hard. Like a bug.

[Djriff]

And I've had multiple people tell me that it should stay, because "class fantasy".

"class fantasy" should be fun and interesting mechanics, not frustrating and hindering mechanics. This isn't vanilla, we've moved on past the time of spells and abilities being frustrating in various ways. (insane cooldowns, reagents, etc) I enjoy no longer having to farm Light Feather, or waste bag slots on Holy Candle.

No offense to anyone on MMO-C that feels that way, but I think class fantasy < Quality of Life in this case.

Hell, STM having a 10 minute cooldown is already excessive, seeing as most other DPS cooldowns are 3 minutes or 5 minutes.

Blizz needs to nerf STM (and buff the other two 100 talents), remove the death effect and give it a 3-5 minute CD. No reason why an already mediocre DPS needs to have an obscenely long cooldown on what is pretty much its only big cooldown.

If they changed StM from 3-5 minutes CD and removed the death effect, it would be even more OP than it is now. They would have to literally nerf our class into the ground/start from scratch if they did that. Honestly StM wouldn't be absolutely terrible if it wasn't for Mass Hysteria, if anything that should be fixed/nerfed/changed as it what makes us OP.

[Woop Woop]

How would a 3 minute cd with no death effect be any different from what it does now, except for making it viable in dungeons as well? Assuming the cd would start when you leave combat to avoid every boss being xavius 2.0. I think it would be great, lower trash dmg would be so much easier to live with as well.

[Coils]

StM is so broken it's ridiculous. In terms of the lvl 100 talents, you either take StM, or you just don't take a talent at all. LotV provides a very marginal DPS increase over not having a talent, and MSp is still clunky when it comes to higher levels of haste.

That aside, if you aren't playing StM you are seriously gimping your DPS.

Basically this. The other two talents in this tier are total trash in their current state. STM is simply so powerful that the entire spec must be tuned to account for it. If you don't like it you have little choice unless the content you're playing isn't super competitive.

I do encourage everyone to try it, because it does create some legitimately unique gameplay and likely won't exist like this forever. That said, I don't like being defined by a singe talent and find it frustrating that it basically invalidates whatever I do for the first three-quarters of the boss fight.

[Deleted]

Just to be clear, I haven't met a priest that agrees the death effect is a good thing.

For it's effect, I don't mind the death penalty, it's quite unique. Dying to it was never a big deal for me - even if I lose a bit of gold on food after successful kills, I save more by using this "feature" not to pay big repair bills after wipes.

There, you met one.

Enjoy S2M when it lasts. We all know it will get changed in 7.1 not to be as ridiculous in right hands, but before 7.1 comes you still have couple weeks/months to have fun.