Pro MM hunters: does focus actually affect your rotation in any way at this point?

[blitzbong]

I've noticed more than not, that the amount of focus I have has almost no bearing on my rotation. It exists... but beyond throwing in a few extra noodle lashings (AS) it doesn't actually affect my rotation in any way. I think I could actually remove focus tracking entirely!

Full focus w/ 2 sidewinders charges? You'll be using sidewinders instead of trying to dump. RIP 200+ focus

100 focus but you've got a marked targets proc and no vulnerable up? Oh, you're gonna be using sidewinders. RIP 150+ focus

have to actually move more than 10yds for a mechanic? rip 100-200+ focus



why the fuck do we even have focus any more? so that we can slap our enemies around with wet noodles outside of vulnerable? I don't even know. I have no idea where MM is going at this point. we get an AS nerf now and being told vulnerable is going to stack better but that buff would apply to currently 0% of MM hunters because you've completely forced us to play in this boxed in method. don't get me wrong, I do enjoy the way the class plays right now but I'm not sure where it's going.


also ,this is a sidebar but... can we FUCKING fix windburst to properly scale with mastery already? we're almost 2 months into the expansion and you've given us two notable nerfs, but not bothered to actually make our artifact ability work properly

[Ometius]

Yeah, why do rogues have energy? Just put a CD on every ability according to the frecuency of using that skill and remove it, same with maelstrom, and mana, actually every resource!

[Arrol]

the spec is limited by focus, so yes, it is a huge part of your dps. try checkmywow.com on your logs and I bet it will be a wake up call on issues you have been making.

[Azortharion]

Windburst has been scaling properly with Mastery for a few weeks, but don't let facts get in the way of your outrage.

[Saphyron]

the spec is limited by focus, so yes, it is a huge part of your dps. try checkmywow.com on your logs and I bet it will be a wake up call on issues you have been making.

Thank you. This has helped me see where I fuck up. And see where my irl friend fucks up.

Seems I have a problem with windburst usually 9/11 or 10/13 used.
That and aimed shot on movement fights.

And my friend learned he had to actually use vengeful retreat.

[Queen of Hamsters]

... Unless you're a LFR hero mashing anything at random when it lights up, then yes... focus does affect rotation.

[Dieranged]

read read read read. if it's available to you read it.

Start with the weapon traits.
I would suggest starting with Mark of the wind runner to help you with your focus dump and hitting like a wet noodle concern.
Then Marked for Death to help with your focus management rotation. A lot can happen in 10 secs.

[Shakou]

Ya I'm not sure the OP is really saying anything at all other than he can't hunter very good.

Also, not really feeling the aimed shot nerf too much over here, it was hitting too hard, if it wasn't nerfed just a baseline crit (i.e. no special procs, no flask etc) with my current gear would do over 1 million dmg. It was doing 800k dmg when it would crit when I was still 858ish i lvl and my artifact wasn't nearly maxed out and just a few item lvls short of the current cap.

But you know what is hitting close to 1 million dmg at times because mastery is working properly now? Windburst.

As for your focus troubles OP, maybe if you weren't prioritizing crit over haste this wouldn't be an issue for you? I've seen plenty of "geared" mm hunters doing crap dps, and it's always because they have virtually no haste. I'm at 15% right now and that's killing me because if I'm not extra careful on my rotation there will be notable gaps (other than the usual that comes with target switching and having to run from bosses like Ursoc and so on) where I don't have vulnerable up, otherwise it's just peachy.

Also I probably should make a separate topic for this but I have a strong feeling that Azortharian's MM legendary bis list is incorrect. Zevrim's Hunger sounds kinda bad on the tooltip but the proc has no internal cooldown. I have often enough in a raid environment had it proc 3-5 times in a row off of the same originating hunter's mark. Seeing as how there are few fights where there is any opportunity to cleave adds and the boss at the same time, and even less where there are often 20 target's up I do not believe that War Belt of the Sentinel Army is very useful at all outside of trash pulls. Would rate Zevrim's Hunger as 2nd BIS with Ullr's Feather Snowshoes at #1. Because it's common sense. Yes more RNG isn't great, but there's a pretty good chance when it procs that you're going to be in situation where you have to move anyways, and so what Zevrim's Hunger means is not only a chance at more marked shots, but an opportunity to have better uptime of vulnerable. I'd say from my testing that it can actually be at least a good 40k to perhaps even a 100k dps upgrade assuming the rest of your gear is solid, that is when fighting bosses anyways. I know it works out pretty great with my currently relatively low haste as it allows me to better manage my focus and keep vulnerable up more often.

[Azortharion]

Aimed Shots crits are only 1 mill or 800k if you got the legendary belt.

I have Zevrim's, I know first-hand that it is a mediocre legendary and it definitely deserves no better than 2nd best.

If you believe the list is incorrect, present some empirical evidence to support this statement.

What you're saying about the DPS upgrade is simply wrong.

[bongo6116]

Speaking of the leg ring. How are you using the ring given the recommended ability usage in your guide? Like do you hang on marked shot procs in order to maintain vulnernable uptime without waiting for the autoshot proc? Or do you use multiple marked shot whenever it lights up since it basically equates to a stronger aimed shot at half cost?

[Azortharion]

You just spam Marked Shots back to back.

Vulnerable uptime is not a meaningful metric by itself.

[Raugnaut]

Yeah, why do rogues have energy? Just put a CD on every ability according to the frecuency of using that skill and remove it, same with maelstrom, and mana, actually every resource!

Nowhere near the same actually. For Rogues, Energy goes full-in their rotation - Rogues do not have a "dump" akin to Hunters. Mana IS pretty much ignored for most casters - Warlocks and Arcane mages are the only ones who have to watch it in a normal rotation, its a pvp resource for everyone else. Maelstrom is shit.

They really fucked up Hunters, and most other classes this expansion. Currently, for MM, and to a lesser extent BM, you have so much focus generation that your priority abilities are already covered, and your "dump" deals similar damage to an auto. Doesn't feel so good. The previous way was much better - A few strong priority abilities, a strong resource dump, and a very weak resource filler with an option to chose a strong resource filler. Now? Complete trash, and its not just hunters - They fucked over Enhancement's previous CD based rotation, fucked over Warlocks, fucked over pretty much everybody. Balancing is retarded atm, as can be seen by the numerous buffs/nerfs they send out weekly. Talents are even more fucked up - At least in WoD, you had a good option and generally 2 niche options. Now, you have Great, very niche, and complete trash options for almost all talent tiers, including PvP.

New blizzard balancing team is failing at thier job. "Its ok as long as a class has 1 viable spec" fucking retarded philosphy, I thought they did away with that shit in Wrath.

[blitzbong]

Ya I'm not sure the OP is really saying anything at all other than he can't hunter very good.

Also, not really feeling the aimed shot nerf too much over here, it was hitting too hard, if it wasn't nerfed just a baseline crit (i.e. no special procs, no flask etc) with my current gear would do over 1 million dmg. It was doing 800k dmg when it would crit when I was still 858ish i lvl and my artifact wasn't nearly maxed out and just a few item lvls short of the current cap.

But you know what is hitting close to 1 million dmg at times because mastery is working properly now? Windburst.

As for your focus troubles OP, maybe if you weren't prioritizing crit over haste this wouldn't be an issue for you? I've seen plenty of "geared" mm hunters doing crap dps, and it's always because they have virtually no haste. I'm at 15% right now and that's killing me because if I'm not extra careful on my rotation there will be notable gaps (other than the usual that comes with target switching and having to run from bosses like Ursoc and so on) where I don't have vulnerable up, otherwise it's just peachy.

Also I probably should make a separate topic for this but I have a strong feeling that Azortharian's MM legendary bis list is incorrect. Zevrim's Hunger sounds kinda bad on the tooltip but the proc has no internal cooldown. I have often enough in a raid environment had it proc 3-5 times in a row off of the same originating hunter's mark. Seeing as how there are few fights where there is any opportunity to cleave adds and the boss at the same time, and even less where there are often 20 target's up I do not believe that War Belt of the Sentinel Army is very useful at all outside of trash pulls. Would rate Zevrim's Hunger as 2nd BIS with Ullr's Feather Snowshoes at #1. Because it's common sense. Yes more RNG isn't great, but there's a pretty good chance when it procs that you're going to be in situation where you have to move anyways, and so what Zevrim's Hunger means is not only a chance at more marked shots, but an opportunity to have better uptime of vulnerable. I'd say from my testing that it can actually be at least a good 40k to perhaps even a 100k dps upgrade assuming the rest of your gear is solid, that is when fighting bosses anyways. I know it works out pretty great with my currently relatively low haste as it allows me to better manage my focus and keep vulnerable up more often.

I don't have focus troubles. I'm usually in 80%-100% for dps. I think you just don't understand what I'm saying is all.

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you have so much focus generation that your priority abilities are already covered, and your "dump" deals similar damage to an auto. Doesn't feel so good.

this was my point. sidewinders generating focus just feels completely arbitrary because you're never actually chasing focus usage. you're just dumping aimed shots into vulnerable so that they don't hit like fucking noodles. what's the purpose of focus if you're just chasing vulnerable all the time?

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read read read read. if it's available to you read it.

Start with the weapon traits.
I would suggest starting with Mark of the wind runner to help you with your focus dump and hitting like a wet noodle concern.
Then Marked for Death to help with your focus management rotation. A lot can happen in 10 secs.

I have 28 traits.

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Windburst has been scaling properly with Mastery for a few weeks, but don't let facts get in the way of your outrage.

A few people have mentioned this now - but it's still doing 360k while the tooltip indicates it should be dealing 580k. Am I missing something here?

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the spec is limited by focus, so yes, it is a huge part of your dps. try checkmywow.com on your logs and I bet it will be a wake up call on issues you have been making.

yes, i tend to be in the 80%-100% in logs

thanks for your concern though babe

[Arrol]

all physical damage is reduced by 30%~ due to armor >.>

Not knowing that I would be even more encouraging of you using checkmywow.com as vuln uptime is a much lower issue than maximizing the focus you gain, and actually using the focus you do have without overcapping.

[Raugnaut]

all physical damage is reduced by 30%~ due to armor >.>

Not knowing that I would be even more encouraging of you using checkmywow.com as vuln uptime is a much lower issue than maximizing the focus you gain, and actually using the focus you do have without overcapping.

He is not complaining about his damage. What he is saying is that Blizzard greatly dumbed down MM. In WoD, you actually had to manage focus to ensure you could use all your priority abilities on CD. Now, your focus regen baseline is enough to do so, making the rotation extremely simple.

[Shakou]

Aimed Shots crits are only 1 mill or 800k if you got the legendary belt.

I have Zevrim's, I know first-hand that it is a mediocre legendary and it definitely deserves no better than 2nd best.

If you believe the list is incorrect, present some empirical evidence to support this statement.

What you're saying about the DPS upgrade is simply wrong.

No what I said about the DPS upgrade is not wrong. You haven't calibrated that thing with precision accuracy, on your guide you state it's not very good and at best in 3rd place, that is simply wrong. You are vastly underestimating this legendary and insinuating that the belt is better than it when it gives you no more than a 10% buff to only your next aimed shot at most in most of the time in raid boss fights. Yes Zevrim's is rng within rng, so it's not always gonna be a big boost, but it has way more usefulness then you are implying. Used correctly this thing increases your vulnerable uptime, which means more aimed shots with vulnerable. Hella better than the belt which is only really great on the Eye boss and maybe 2nd phase of Xavius, and Cenarius if you're letting wisps spawn. Not to mention it has the added ability to help smooth out your rotation when you have to move a lot.



Of course it's no better than 2nd place, and that is what I said. That doesn't mean it's bad. It's not. Obviously boots are top, but the belt? Reliable but not actually a big boost at all outside of trash/add phases.

And what do you mean vulnerable uptime isn't a useful metric in and of itself? How do you figure? That makes no sense whatsoever, MM dmg is completely tied in to keeping vulnerable up on your target, target switching fucks with that, as does movement intensive fights. When that legendary procs it's at least giving you 6 more seconds of vulnerable for a low focus cost, it does not require a lot of math to figure out that's a really good dps upgrade...although not reliable, good thing in this case you're only required to keep the hunters mark up to use that bonus 6 seconds to your advantage and that lasts a long time. It gives you options, maybe not all the time whenever you need them, but that's so much more than a mesely 10% dmg on your next aimed shot after you use sidewinders which is all you get out of the belt the vast majority of the time.

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He is not complaining about his damage. What he is saying is that Blizzard greatly dumbed down MM. In WoD, you actually had to manage focus to ensure you could use all your priority abilities on CD. Now, your focus regen baseline is enough to do so, making the rotation extremely simple.

That is completely inaccurate. You do have to manage your focus in Legion or else you will screw up your rotation, be focused starved, or forced to cast aimed shots without vulnerable on the target. All you did in WOD outside of cooldowns was chimera on cooldown, steady shot so you can aimed shot. Not more complex in any way shape or form.

[Deleted]

No what I said about the DPS upgrade is not wrong. You haven't calibrated that thing with precision accuracy, on your guide you state it's not very good and at best in 3rd place, that is simply wrong. You are vastly underestimating this legendary and insinuating that the belt is better than it when it gives you no more than a 10% buff to only your next aimed shot at most in most of the time in raid boss fights. Yes Zevrim's is rng within rng, so it's not always gonna be a big boost, but it has way more usefulness then you are implying. Used correctly this thing increases your vulnerable uptime, which means more aimed shots with vulnerable. Hella better than the belt which is only really great on the Eye boss and maybe 2nd phase of Xavius, and Cenarius if you're letting wisps spawn. Not to mention it has the added ability to help smooth out your rotation when you have to move a lot.



Of course it's no better than 2nd place, and that is what I said. That doesn't mean it's bad. It's not. Obviously boots are top, but the belt? Reliable but not actually a big boost at all outside of trash/add phases.

And what do you mean vulnerable uptime isn't a useful metric in and of itself? How do you figure? That makes no sense whatsoever, MM dmg is completely tied in to keeping vulnerable up on your target, target switching fucks with that, as does movement intensive fights. When that legendary procs it's at least giving you 6 more seconds of vulnerable for a low focus cost, it does not require a lot of math to figure out that's a really good dps upgrade...although not reliable, good thing in this case you're only required to keep the hunters mark up to use that bonus 6 seconds to your advantage and that lasts a long time. It gives you options, maybe not all the time whenever you need them, but that's so much more than a mesely 10% dmg on your next aimed shot after you use sidewinders which is all you get out of the belt the vast majority of the time.

Feelycrafting at it's finest.

You seem very sure on something that you have done no math on whatsoever and relied completely on feels.

I assume you feelycrafted mark of the distant army for your neck enchant too.

[Azortharion]

No what I said about the DPS upgrade is not wrong. You haven't calibrated that thing with precision accuracy, on your guide you state it's not very good and at best in 3rd place, that is simply wrong. You are vastly underestimating this legendary and insinuating that the belt is better than it when it gives you no more than a 10% buff to only your next aimed shot at most in most of the time in raid boss fights. Yes Zevrim's is rng within rng, so it's not always gonna be a big boost, but it has way more usefulness then you are implying. Used correctly this thing increases your vulnerable uptime, which means more aimed shots with vulnerable. Hella better than the belt which is only really great on the Eye boss and maybe 2nd phase of Xavius, and Cenarius if you're letting wisps spawn. Not to mention it has the added ability to help smooth out your rotation when you have to move a lot.



Of course it's no better than 2nd place, and that is what I said. That doesn't mean it's bad. It's not. Obviously boots are top, but the belt? Reliable but not actually a big boost at all outside of trash/add phases.

And what do you mean vulnerable uptime isn't a useful metric in and of itself? How do you figure? That makes no sense whatsoever, MM dmg is completely tied in to keeping vulnerable up on your target, target switching fucks with that, as does movement intensive fights. When that legendary procs it's at least giving you 6 more seconds of vulnerable for a low focus cost, it does not require a lot of math to figure out that's a really good dps upgrade...although not reliable, good thing in this case you're only required to keep the hunters mark up to use that bonus 6 seconds to your advantage and that lasts a long time. It gives you options, maybe not all the time whenever you need them, but that's so much more than a mesely 10% dmg on your next aimed shot after you use sidewinders which is all you get out of the belt the vast majority of the time.

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That is completely inaccurate. You do have to manage your focus in Legion or else you will screw up your rotation, be focused starved, or forced to cast aimed shots without vulnerable on the target. All you did in WOD outside of cooldowns was chimera on cooldown, steady shot so you can aimed shot. Not more complex in any way shape or form.

Zevrim's does not meaningfully increase Vuln-Aimed count, actually. You might get an extra here or there but that's going to be pretty rare.

On my most recent Ursoc Mythic, my guildie without Zevrim's Marked Shot contributed 73k dps.

Mine, with Zevrim's, contributed 90k dps. Sure, RNG is RNG, but I'd like for you to show the math on his 73k non-Zevrim DPS count, and figure out in what sort of universe Zevrim's will give you 40-100k dps.

Vulnerable uptime isn't a meaningful resource by itself because Vulnerable uptime is worth nothing if you can't cast anything during it. You could have 100 uptime on Vulnerable, but you'd still be focus limited. Similarly you could have infinite focus, but still only have so many Marking Targets procs and Windbursts to supply you with Vulnerable uptime.

The simulations do the math for you, in this particular case. It's not as big of an upgrade as you seem to want it to be.

The nature of the Marksmanship rotation that most people are doing (SW > AS > MS > AS.. or slight variations thereof) means that with a Zevrim's proc, you're already on low focus, and while you could conceivably push in an Aimed before the Zevrim-Marked's Vulnerable window ends, this won't even be the better play at the time, because any focus you spend now will just be focus that you don't have in the next Vulnerable window, so the Aimed you gain, you lose later on.

I'm sorry friend, you just don't really know what you're talking about and as an attempt on my end to save my sanity and keep stupid out of my conscious, I am going to ignore you from here.

Both basic maths and simulations disagree with what you say.

The belt is almost as strong as an additional Trueshot on a single target. Given that absolutely no fight is pure single-target, and almost every fight presents you with opportunities to build massive stacks on one or multiple Aimed Shots, it's pretty obviously going to be a better legendary than Zevrim's. And even when the boots don't give you another Trueshot, they still allow you to counter some mechanics with a Trueshot used at another part in the fight than you would have been able to without the boots. It helps that pretty much every fight is long enough that the boots will give you another Trueshot..