Final Boss Warlock Episode

[Sanoku]

So did anyone else watch the Final Boss for warlocks yet? I was watching and found a lot of problems with the answers the people being interviewed gave.



I've also been on the warlock discord and am kind of in disbelief about how many people on there just flat out deny the problems warlocks face.





Now before some of you accuse me making this a pure "the sky is falling" post, I am fully aware that warlocks have some good things going for them and before someone says "you ignored xyz point in the video"... I didn't... I'm just focusing on some of the nonsense that was in the video.



So first off, Not was saying that warlocks are tanky and that he just stands in things and expects people to heal him. This was the same attitude that Blizzard stated in a blue post and the apparent design behind the class in exchange for mobility. What Not fails to cover, perhaps doesn't realize (maybe lack of mythic raiding?) that there are mechanics DESIGNED to kill you. Not only that, even if you CAN stand in things, they will stun you, knock you back, silence you, or deal damage to other people or cause problems for other people (cough HoV and Wardens boss). So really, you CAN'T stand in things and your group often gets upset with you for standing in things.



Pyro also made a point that Burning Rush is great for Cenarius because it negates Scorned Touch put out by the Twisted Sisters. Which I agree! It's awesome! And then Not replies with "well I'll just stand in it and get healed because it won't kill me". This tells me he does not understand how the mechanic works. Scorned Touch does ZERO damage to you when it's on you. It does like 1 million damage to people who get hit by someone ELSE'S and then REAPPLIES the debuff to the person who got hit. So not only are you screwing someone over by not moving and dealing damage to them, but standing in a Scorned touch just spreads the debuff. So he really didn't sound like he knew what he was talking about there.



Next issue was again with Not (there seems to be a theme here) and originally when he was asked how Demo was he basically said he has no complaints and that it's fine. He was then asked about movement and how Demo plays out with that and he again said it's a non issue.... ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Demo is a turret spec that is completely inflated by simcraft (surprise.... this was addressed by Terryn) and it loses tons of dps with every mechanic that you have to deal with.



So overall, I felt like the entire podcast (interview?) was a recap of like 75% of the stuff that is already on MMO Champion and then ignoring and bypassing the real problems like mechanics and poor design choices.



I will say I am glad they touched up on how Blizzard wants us to be tanky and yet they moved Demon Skin and are forcing Demonic Circle down our throats (which btw I use Burning Rush for 5 mans and a few EN fights and now I'm basically forced to never use it). So at least they addressed that.







So to me, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth that we are being represented by people who make these guides and are supposed to be "knowledgable" and when given the spotlight just kind of glance over our issues as a whole. They even joked about how many people rerolled mage and how they jump around like an idiot with all their instant cast bs and do more damage and then it just stopped and they went on with their textbook information.





The podcast in general felt really underwhelming and feels like unless you get someone who addresses all the real issues we'd have a better chance to have our mechanics fixed. I also just what to emphasize that I don't want to cry and whine until I do 2x the damage as a mage, I just want to do close to what other classes do without feeling like I'm pulling teeth through the entire process. If I did 80 - 85% of what the top classes were doing but it didn't require me to wade through broken mechanics and movement punishing raid abilities, I'd be perfectly ok with that.



/endrant

[xuros]

Eh, I woudlny say Not has no idea how they work since he is 7/7 mythic. Although in my guild if i stand in shit that doesnt kill me i get bitched at and told move or be replaced.

[dmon83]

Saying "your healers will heal you" is a bunch of shit from Not. That's pretty selfish and while we can take a bit of a better beating ( I am usually one of the last to die on a wipe ) you should't be purposely standing in shit and take away heals from classes that can't really absorb like we can.

We'll suffer when moving but it's better to be alive than standing in garbage that will wreck you. Demo is merely fine - this is not a good thing - some of the PVP talents should be baseline (insta. dogs for instance -- that giant Fel guy would be cool for AOE as well), we shouldn't be so gimped when having to move (unsure how to fix this but no demons = no damage) but I feel our damage is in a good place.

Eh, I woudlny say Not has no idea how they work since he is 7/7 mythic. Although in my guild if i stand in shit that doesnt kill me i get bitched at and told move or be replaced.

I don't think this gives anyone authority.

[Shoeboots]

While I agree with you that Not's take on mobility wasn't really helpful to me or most people, it's totally valid for him to have that take, given his credentials.

But ultimately, what is least helpful is for you to go on a rant about how you disapprove of all the free resources we have in the warlock community. If you don't like what's being said, make some content and contribute. Don't just tell all these skilled players that spend an incredible amount of their time sharing their knowledge and experience that they have to make better content for you.

[Yintoo]

I thought the FinalBoss vid was incredibly well done and I'm actually very excited to see the rest of them. Bringing in some of the best theorycrafters for the class to talk about each spec felt great. I'll agree that I think some negative points about the specs were glossed over, but this may have been intentional from FinalBoss in order to keep the video from becoming overly negative or less useful. I think part of what Not said was in a half joking manner, I don't think he advises people to stand in bad mechanics.

Overall though all three (Not/Pyro/Terryn) made a fantastic video that carried good information in it. Now I just continue to pray for mechanical changes to soul effigy or demonic empowerment so I can stop playing Hunter.

[Spunt]

Do any of those locks actually play affliction or do they all play demo and destro?

Also, SOUL EFFIGY IS STILL BUGGED IF YOU HAVE MORE THAN 1 AFFLICTION IN A RAID (about a rare as seeing 2 unicorns fucking, but hey, warlock bugs aren't even on their list of things to fix!)

[Gaidax]

I think OP does not understand how things work, maybe that's why he bashes Not's approach, which is completely legitimate simply because when you pop Dark Pact you can stand in shit all day long and it won't scratch you, things like Gloom or Blob fixating on you or that AoE wind on Renferal whatever it's called - they all do 0 damage to you while Dark Pact is up.

Naturally you don't stand in frikkin' Rot or shit that has actual mechanic to it, but there IS a ton of shit in Mythic EN you can simply stand in and merrily nuke away.

[xuros]

Saying "your healers will heal you" is a bunch of shit from Not. That's pretty selfish and while we can take a bit of a better beating ( I am usually one of the last to die on a wipe ) you should't be purposely standing in shit and take away heals from classes that can't really absorb like we can.

We'll suffer when moving but it's better to be alive than standing in garbage that will wreck you. Demo is merely fine - this is not a good thing - some of the PVP talents should be baseline (insta. dogs for instance -- that giant Fel guy would be cool for AOE as well), we shouldn't be so gimped when having to move (unsure how to fix this but no demons = no damage) but I feel our damage is in a good place.



I don't think this gives anyone authority.

Who said anything about authority? But being in a top tier guild and being ranked in the 95+ percentiles on all the MYTHIC fights would suggest that the person knows what hes talking about.

[Deleted]

Yeah dude, Not is a real professional you shouldn't think your better at him. He's played in the top guilds. World first many times.Affliction isn't as bad as the OP makes it sound. Didn't Not say that Affliction has the best potential out of all the specs? Or did I hear wrong. Anyway, warlocks are in a good spot. There are two warloks in our raid team but they just can't play and that's why other classes are doing better. I've check warcraftlogs and there are many warlocks doing over 300k even in Ilgynoth.

[Deleted]

The most significant bit is where the guy starts talking about mages and says

"hey, but don;t warlocks have to stand and turret whilst mages are jumping around doing their instant casts, becaus eit;s all like instant casts, and then if a mage turrets they do more damage than the warlock does anyway?"

And then there's this long, awkward silence where it's obvious that all the three warlock players are thinking "yeah, it's true, but we don;t want to say so"

Broken by the destro player hwo starts saying "well, yeah, but we can't all have our cake and eat it"

It comes across as not wanting to be too negative and trying to find good things to say

Also, worth remembering that these guys are top players, and they are able to overcome the higher skillcap demands and also so used to min-maxing they are more iwlling to tolerate the incessant talent changing bullshit and so on, in fact they are so skilled they probably don;t find a warlock any harder to max out than any other class they might choose to play

Just not true of the vast majority of the playerbase, most of it don;t see why they have to put double the skill and three times the effort and time than their mage pals do just to get not even the same reward

As for standing in shit and surviving and wanting healers to heal you up, well, that's exactly the class design philosophy that Blizz have applied, it's how they expect you to behave

[Nadiru]

The most significant bit is where the guy starts talking about mages and says

"hey, but don;t warlocks have to stand and turret whilst mages are jumping around doing their instant casts, becaus eit;s all like instant casts, and then if a mage turrets they do more damage than the warlock does anyway?"

And then there's this long, awkward silence where it's obvious that all the three warlock players are thinking "yeah, it's true, but we don;t want to say so"

Broken by the destro player hwo starts saying "well, yeah, but we can't all have our cake and eat it"

It comes across as not wanting to be too negative and trying to find good things to say

Got a timestamp for that awkward silence? I wanna see it but don't wanna wade through 130 minutes of video.

[Nevalus]

I think OP does not understand how things work, maybe that's why he bashes Not's approach, which is completely legitimate simply because when you pop Dark Pact you can stand in shit all day long and it won't scratch you, things like Gloom or Blob fixating on you or that AoE wind on Renferal whatever it's called - they all do 0 damage to you while Dark Pact is up.

Naturally you don't stand in frikkin' Rot or shit that has actual mechanic to it, but there IS a ton of shit in Mythic EN you can simply stand in and merrily nuke away.

This. Soaking a flower on dragons doesn't even break the shield either. It just runs out after 20 seconds.

[Deleted]

It was also obvous they thought the talent swap was bullshit, basically "we want you to be tanky and if that isn;t working we want to double down on strengths"

Then they decide to do the opposite by making leech and Pact mutually exclusive (another rolleyes section of the podcast)

And, moreover, they want talent choices to be interesting and significant

So howdoes that work when aflfiction gets "alternatives" of Mortal Coil and HOwl of Terror, like those have any use whatever in a dungeon or raid

And why the hell doesn;t affliction have showdofury?

[Sanoku]

This. Soaking a flower on dragons doesn't even break the shield either. It just runs out after 20 seconds.

I do understand how it works. I regularly abuse DP and make it a habit to soak mechanics LIKE the flower so others dont have to. My point lies in the fact that many mechanics don't kill you but PUNISH you for standing in it as I stated above (stuns, knockbacks, things that kill others etc) and that's what I feel Not has glossed over.

I myself have raided in good guilds and I myself feel I can play the class to its best potential. As also stated by someone above me (sorry for not directly quoting but I'm on my phone and it's cumbersome to edit this) but we CAN do well at the expense of 5x the work someone like a mage can do and mages do have their cake whilst eating it too.

I can pull the numbers and i can master the skill that is involved with the class. Warlock has been my love since I started this game in 2007 and my frustration with the class in general is my general feeling that Blizzard does not know how to balance us or that no one plays the class themself, and that our mechanics are annoying or clunky with our talent trees being life or death decisions that other classes dont have to make because their base abilities weren't thrown into their talent trees.

And after reviewing the replies, yes you guys are probably right. Not is probably trying to not make the video entirely negative but the issues felt ignored but I stand by the warlock discord usually completely denying the issues we have.

[Deleted]

OP, dont take it personally, but by your post it looks like you have little to no clue about warlocks and their raid performance, you also fail to understand the sarcasm of certain points, and the reason why demo is overplayed in simc is not because of movements or shit, but due reaction time, same as blood talons ferals or s2m priests

I also wonder what are those glaring issues you are referring to, since apparently you look much more informed than anyone else

[Deleted]

My problem with the episode is that it was basically 2 hours of them reading their guides out to us. The video must have dedicated a good 20 minutes just to them explaining the artifact route. There was very little discussion itself, particularly between the warlock players, which is disappointing when I think Final Boss provides a unique context for interactions between top players (or just getting deeper into their thoughts on things) which past warlock episodes have showcased pretty well. This one isn't really worth watching if you already frequent class forums and know the ins-and-outs of 7.0 warlock.

[Deleted]

The demonology was pure BS and make believe, I cringed when he argued that doom was the best thing ever. The affliction and destruction sections were both fun and informative, and accurate. My warlock have yet to do any encounter in EN on mythic and what they said were true to some degree.

[Deleted]

well I completed 7/7 mythic tonight, cenarius got ganked and xavius two hours later. I think im completely in agreeance of how Not says that warlocks are good and can just literally stand in shit asmuch as we want.

450k Absorb shield from the passive regening shield, and a 1.4mil Absorb on a 1 min CD paired with 40% dmg reduction just makes me not literally give a single fuck about abilities in mythic since they won't even go through my shields.

2.4m HP and 2m Absorb shields +40% damage reduction is what we have at 875 ilvl ish.

On the subject of mobility, we have Demonwrath to cast WHILE RUNNING , I have no problems with moving from shit to somewhere else and casting Demonwrath to gain shards or lifetap during this time. Recasting doom, applying Darkglare, movement we also can completely plan, and ignore mechanics as I pointed out earlier because of we are tanky as a Rhino.

[evertonbelmontt]

I'm not gonna criticize anyone because I don't think I could've done better in their place, instead, I'll congratulate Terryn because he really said what should have been said.

And you can see how he tries to put it in a way that doesn't sound angry or complicated.

About Not, you can use his aproach to explain to RL that the upside of being a lock is that you CAN soak some things, and if they want you to move out of everything because healers will have one less person to worry about, tell them to fu** off, err, I mean, link them the vod!

About Pyre... All I can think about is his LEGS. OH MY GAWD. DAYUM LEGS.

[Deleted]

well I completed 7/7 mythic tonight, cenarius got ganked and xavius two hours later. I think im completely in agreeance of how Not says that warlocks are good and can just literally stand in shit asmuch as we want.

450k Absorb shield from the passive regening shield, and a 1.4mil Absorb on a 1 min CD paired with 40% dmg reduction just makes me not literally give a single fuck about abilities in mythic since they won't even go through my shields.

2.4m HP and 2m Absorb shields +40% damage reduction is what we have at 875 ilvl ish.

On the subject of mobility, we have Demonwrath to cast WHILE RUNNING , I have no problems with moving from shit to somewhere else and casting Demonwrath to gain shards or lifetap during this time. Recasting doom, applying Darkglare, movement we also can completely plan, and ignore mechanics as I pointed out earlier because of we are tanky as a Rhino.

Well you might want to get used to around 1.25m shields +40& reductions as we've not going to keep that combo in 7.1

Congrats on 7/7M but DE+Lifetap is not an interesting mechanic no matter how you put it. Our damage is great in both PvE and PvP however while the clunkiness of hard-casting can mitigated in PvE it is much more punishing in PvP with the 7.1 shield nerf. Since we don't have a snare we're dependent on our Pet+stun to chase pillar huggers and Demonwrath RNG to provide us with shards. I don't get why people aren't commenting with 7.1 in mind when stating everything is fine etc etc fucking etc.