Begrudgingly, Japan is beginning to accept that it needs more immigrants

[Wilian]

Japan does not need more immigrants. The governments needs more bodies to tax and they are starting not to care where those bodies come from.

Well, what other options do you present at their shrinking population that is already borderlining non-recovery birth-rates? Make them breed on gunpoint?

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No, they do not.
They need more productive people.
They can either raise native productivity, or the can 'import' productive people.
They do not need 'immigrants'.

I don't think you know what you're saying. Immigrants are people coming in from other places, be they productive or not.

[Vizardlorde]

Well, what other options do you present at their shrinking population that is already borderlining non-recovery birth-rates? Make them breed on gunpoint?

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I don't think you know what you're saying. Immigrants are people coming in from other places, be they productive or not.

Alien abduction sims 2 style

[Nirya]

Well, what other options do you present at their shrinking population that is already borderlining non-recovery birth-rates? Make them breed on gunpoint?

Pull back all kinds of birth control.

It's probably one of the biggest mistakes to introduce birth control as they did.

[Gamevizier]

No, they do not.
They need more productive people.
They can either raise native productivity, or the can 'import' productive people.
They do not need 'immigrants'.

rofl. "importing" a productive person still means accepting an immigrant. an immigrant can be in a country on different visas, that is if they are there legally. it's either a working visa, or an immigration visa, or a student visa. they've still immigrated there, either temporary or permanently.

[Deleted]

Well, what other options do you present at their shrinking population that is already borderlining non-recovery birth-rates? Make them breed on gunpoint?

Adjust to it. Just because the population declines does not mean that the industrial base evaporates with it as well.

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The most obvious solution to this problem is immigration. The problem is that Japan and most European countries have severe cultural problems integrating immigrants. The Japanese don't try, for the most part, and the Europeans who have tried — particularly with migrants from the Islamic world — have found it difficult. The United States also has a birthrate for white women at about 1.9, meaning that the Caucasian population is contracting, but the African-American and Hispanic populations compensate for that. In addition, the United States is an efficient manager of immigration, despite current controversies.

Two points must be made on immigration. First, the American solution of relying on immigration will mean a substantial change in what has been the historical sore point in American culture: race. The United States can maintain its population only if the white population becomes a minority in the long run. The second point is that some of the historical sources of immigration to the United States, particularly Mexico, are exporting fewer immigrants. As Mexico moves up the economic scale, emigration to the United States will decline. Therefore, the third tier of countries where there is still surplus population will have to be the source for immigrants. Europe and Japan have no viable model for integrating migrants.

The Effects of Population on GDP

But the real question is whether a declining population matters. Assume that there is a smooth downward curve of population, with it decreasing by 20 percent. If the downward curve in gross domestic product matched the downward curve in population, per capita GDP would be unchanged. By this simplest measure, the only way there would be a problem is if GDP fell more than population, or fell completely out of sync with the population, creating negative and positive bubbles. That would be destabilizing.

But there is no reason to think that GDP would fall along with population. The capital base of society, its productive plant as broadly understood, will not dissolve as population declines. Moreover, assume that population fell but GDP fell less — or even grew. Per capita GDP would rise and, by that measure, the population would be more prosperous than before.

One of the key variables mitigating the problem of decreasing population would be continuing advances in technology to increase productivity. We can call this automation or robotics, but growths in individual working productivity have been occurring in all productive environments from the beginning of industrialization, and the rate of growth has been intensifying. Given the smooth and predictable decline in population, there is no reason to believe, at the very least, that GDP would not fall less than population. In other words, with a declining population in advanced industrial societies, even leaving immigration out as a factor, per capita GDP would be expected to grow.

Changes in the Relationship Between Labor and Capital

A declining population would have another and more radical impact. World population was steady until the middle of the 16th century. The rate of growth increased in about 1750 and moved up steadily until the beginning of the 20th century, when it surged. Put another way, beginning with European imperialism and culminating in the 20th century, the population has always been growing. For the past 500 years or so, the population has grown at an increasing rate. That means that throughout the history of modern industrialism and capitalism, there has always been a surplus of labor. There has also been a shortage of capital in the sense that capital was more expensive than labor by equivalent quanta, and given the constant production of more humans, supply tended to depress the price of labor.

For the first time in 500 years, this situation is reversing itself. First, fewer humans are being born, which means the labor force will contract and the price of all sorts of labor will increase. This has never happened before in the history of industrial man. In the past, the scarce essential element has been capital. But now capital, understood in its precise meaning as the means of production, will be in surplus, while labor will be at a premium. The economic plant in place now and created over the next generation will not evaporate. At most, it is underutilized, and that means a decline in the return on capital. Put in terms of the analog, money, it means that we will be entering a period where money will be cheap and labor increasingly expensive.

- https://www.stratfor.com/weekly/popu...nomic-reversal

Look, even the poorest shithole by the end of this century is going to have birth rate lower than required 2.1. Countries who will make painful but long-term investments in to their future will benefit more than Germany which is probably going to end up looking more like Bangladesh in all meanings some time mid-century.
But a point will arrive when they won't be able to attract enough people. It is going to happen within our lifetimes (born early 90's and statistically, I could it make it to 2070).

There are plenty of inefficiencies even in a country like Japan. Young people not going and studying for jobs that matter. NEETs doing NEET things.
So many reforms one can and should do before importing people.

[Nirya]

rofl. "importing" a productive person still means accepting an immigrant. an immigrant can be in a country on different visas, that is if they are there legally. it's either a working visa, or an immigration visa, or a student visa. they've still immigrated there, either temporary or permanently.

Guest worker =/= Immigrant.

[Gracin]

I just wanna move to Japan and open an American BBQ restaurant.

[Gamevizier]

Guest worker =/= Immigrant.

guest worker is still a type of migration. people immigrate to other countries for a variety of reasons, just because people prefer to use immigration as a derogatory term doesn't mean immigration itself is bad. what is bad though is uncontrolled immigration, meaning either illegal immigration, or low standards for immigration (which is set by the government) which results in a large number of immigrant population who refuse to integrate and be productive.

a guest worker is still going to live in that country for either a specified amount of time (e.g when his contract is over.) or if the laws permit, he can apply for a permanent residency and even citizenship. I do not know what the laws of Japan are in regards to obtaining permanent residency.

[GennGreymane]

To all the people who say "just have more kids"

1. That contributes to other issues
2. They ain't fucking in Japan. Many articles about this
3. You won't have a population boom as quickly as needed
4. Why not so both the more kids/incentives option and immigrants?

[Nirya]

guest worker is still a type of migration. people immigrate to other countries for a variety of reasons, just because people prefer to use immigration as a derogatory term doesn't mean immigration itself is bad. what is bad though is uncontrolled immigration, meaning either illegal immigration, or low standards for immigration (which is set by the government) which results in a large number of immigrant population who refuse to integrate and be productive.

Being an immigrant means you are permanently settling there for the foreseeable future. Being a guest workers mean you are there on a contract and have to go back home once it's over. Pretty big differences.

[Garnier Fructis]

No, they do not.
They need more productive people.
They can either raise native productivity, or the can 'import' productive people.
They do not need 'immigrants'.

Imported productive people somehow aren't immigrants?

What the fuck did I read?

Edit: Nirya's answer explains this, I guess.

[Gratlim]

I like Japan, for all its insanity, but I wouldn't want to work there in any kind of office environment. Too many horror stories.

This. Been in Japan and I love the country but I would trade the pay and working environment from Norway for nothing.

[tikcol]

This is why they are working on robots. Japanese would rather have robots than immigrants and maybe it's not just the Japanese.

You couldn't be more right, no sarcasm.

[Wilian]

Adjust to it. Just because the population declines does not mean that the industrial base evaporates with it as well.

You don't exactly adjust into dying out as an entire nation. At least not in the long term.

[Draco-Onis]

That's exactly what it is about. The current system requires a growing tax base to maintain all the benefits the politicians promised to get elected. Rather than adjust the systems, the government wants to bring in more people to tax. This only works, however, if the population moving into the country is work ready.

We can see the failure of this policy in Europe and the US, which are bringing in massive numbers of uneducated unemployable people who will not provide tax revenue. Even those that eventually become employed will do so in the lowest income brackets and will be a net loss for the government after welfare, food stamps, etc is accounted for, but on the plus side the politicians will get more indebted voters to maintain there power. As they build the house of cards higher and higher it will eventually fall, but not on their heads, it will be future generations who bear the brunt of current leaders bad decisions.

Good luck doing massive cuts to benefits to the elderly, any political party that does it will be committing suicide. Secondly even if you adjust it the math will not work out unless you do plan on giving nothing to some of them it's just long term Japan birth rate is insanely low.

Also there have many studies about the benefits of immigration especially in a country like Japan it is a long term boon. Unless you are a native which most people are not most people in the US are the results of massive immigration from Europe, Africa and Asia and last time I checked the US wasn't a real life version of mad max.

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For some reason the men in Japan are too akward to have relationships, let alone intercourse with women.

And I guess the work ethic/culture doesnt help with family life either.

It's more of a society, work pressure problem everything from their insane work hours, treatment of children out of wedlock to how women are treated in the workforce when they get pregnant / have children. Japan has created an environment where having sex, kids is basically taboo on the other hand it also explains why they have so much porn.

[Gamevizier]

Being an immigrant means you are permanently settling there for the foreseeable future. Being a guest workers mean you are there on a contract and have to go back home once it's over. Pretty big differences.

no, immigration means moving to another country to settle down. (tourism for example isn't immigration)

there are different types of immigration, like I said, the reason that you refuse to use the word "immigration" is probably because you're one of the people who uses it as a derogatory word and thus, try to use other terms to distance from the word itself.


guest worker is still a form of temporary immigration. the immigrant will move back to their country when their contract expires, depending on the country's immigration policy he may or may not be able to upgrade his status to permanent residency.

it's really simple, here is the wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration

quoting from the very first paragraph:

Immigration is the international movement of people into a destination country of which they are not natives or where they do not possess citizenship in order to settle or reside there, especially as permanent residents or naturalized citizens, or to take-up employment as a migrant worker or temporarily as a foreign worker.

ESPECIALLY as permanent residents or naturalized citizens. Immigration can be temporary or permanent depending on individuals and their reasons for immigrating and the countries immigration policies.

[Triggered Fridgekin]

How can they have birthrate issues? 98% of JAV is nothing but super rape creampies.

[Nirya]

no, immigration means moving to another country to settle down. (tourism for example isn't immigration)

there are different types of immigration, like I said, the reason that you refuse to use the word "immigration" is probably because you're one of the people who uses it as a derogatory word and thus, try to use other terms to distance from the word itself.


guest worker is still a form of temporary immigration. the immigrant will move back to their country when their contract expires, depending on the country's immigration policy he may or may not be able to upgrade his status to permanent residency.

it's really simple, here is the wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration

quoting from the very first paragraph:



ESPECIALLY as permanent residents or naturalized citizens. Immigration can be temporary or permanent depending on individuals and their reasons for immigrating and the countries immigration policies.

immigrant
ˈɪmɪɡr(ə)nt/
noun
noun: immigrant; plural noun: immigrants
a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country.

I'll stick to that, thank you.

[Gamevizier]

immigrant
ˈɪmɪɡr(ə)nt/
noun
noun: immigrant; plural noun: immigrants
a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country.

I'll stick to that, thank you.

right, because when the word appeared in universal dictionaries there were stuff like working visas and such. *rolls eyes*

[Deleted]

Japanese school girl outfits.
Those four words are the key to bringing more immigrants into the country.