S2M Baseline?

[Djriff]

My point stands, your points are stupid.

1) Not everybody plays alpha / beta / ptr and its a valid assumption to think that more than one talent choice on a line would be viable.
2) I agree its StM interaction with MH, regardless, it needs toning down no matter how you spin it.

To counter argument your first point.

While not everyone played alpha/beta/ptr they had access to videos and streams. I they didn't decide to research their class before delving into it, then that's they players fault not the class. I get that StM isn't for everyone, but if the class your playing isn't fun, then you shouldn't play that class and swap.

[Theed]

a big amount of players hate S2M including me. I like button mashing and fast paced gameplay and high skill cap but i hate the death component. I hate that it does not work in pvp. If they made S2M baseline/mandatory with the death component and 10 minute cd it would make me quit the game. And i wouldn't be the only one.

[anon5123]

there are plenty of people that do not like the play style it generates, I mean there are already plenty of people that have been given up on Shadow due to not liking the play style, making it even more extreme is only going to push more away

So...don't play Shadow Priest if you don't like how it plays? Blizzard cannot please everyone. There are plenty of other classes/specs to play.

and if they nerf it/remove the death mechanic then they basically just turned it into basic DPS CD all of it's flavor comes from the "skirting close to death" thing

That's what's making people hate it: the fact that you have to play perfectly or die. If there was no punishment for failure, then it'd be a lot less stressful to use, while still rewarding people who play it well.

Like I said, "class fantasy", "flavor", whatever you want to call it...should be fun and interesting things, not frustrating and punishing things.

It's like claiming that Combustion needs to make the Mage take tons of self-inflicted fire damage, and if you take that away, then the CD has no more flavor...what? No, nobody wants frustrating, punishing mechanics for no reason other than "muh class fantasy".

[Aydinx2]

It is not overtuned, the whole spec is based around it.

No, it's not.
The SPriest spec is based around Insanity. Just because StM buffs this mechanic doesn't mean the spec is based around it.

[Djriff]

a big amount of players hate S2M including me. I like button mashing and fast paced gameplay and high skill cap but i hate the death component. I hate that it does not work in pvp. If they made S2M baseline/mandatory with the death component and 10 minute cd it would make me quit the game. And i wouldn't be the only one.

Sure, but I'm also a fan of talents meant for certain situations/scenarios. So StM being great for PvP is great, if anything they need to bring the other talents up to bear. That's the largest issue with playing a class with only 1 DPS spec.

No, it's not.
The SPriest spec is based around Insanity. Just because StM buffs this mechanic doesn't mean the spec is based around it.

All of our damage is tuned around execution. We have 2 talents that take direct advantage of it, Twist of Fate and Reaper of Souls. I did some talent comparisons awhile back and all the other talents pale in comparison to those two with StM. ToF is especially powerful in comparison to the other talents in the row. While StM may not be what the spec is suppose to be balanced around, at the moment that's the perception of the community.

[SafariDiscoLion]

No, it's not.
The SPriest spec is based around Insanity. Just because StM buffs this mechanic doesn't mean the spec is based around it.

Almost every single one of our damage boosts is in execute phase, AKA S2M. S2M itself, Reaper of Souls, Twist of Fate, Mass Hysteria, even our random utility legendaries and traits are based on being in Voidform, and when S2M makes Voidform last longer, it means it has to be balanced around that, not the non-S2M phases. If any of these WERE made good for non-S2M VF, they'd be psychotically overpowered during S2M, like HM.

[RsinRC]

Been reading through this thread and there are great points, good points and some questionable at the least lol.

I'd like to give my 2 cents about the 'rework' because Shadow is my ultimate spec and I love it dearly.

First off lets think practicality and usefulness of our talents, which talents we can afford to lose, things we lack and would love to gain.

▪In the 1st Tier we really only have 1 talent choice in most if not ALL situations. And that is ToF. It increases our healing and damage. Being an execute based spec, ToF is a passive long overdue in becoming a baseline passive abilty. Its been top for many years. We always take it and for good reason.

- The first tier has 2 talents that shift our insanity gain. Shadow Word: Void will be too OP combined with ToF and StM and should definitely be reworked or if not, have it compete with Oblivion talent. Shadow needs a way to get into VF a lot faster from low levels since its so slow paced and lack in any fast paced leveling dungeons or low lvl pvp.

▪2nd tier we basically have 1 choice as well. Body and Soul. Should it baseline? I dont think it should but considering how niche Mania is and how these two talents are our only mobility options period (baseline or otherwise) we should definitely get that tier reworked. What I propose is changing Mania into a talent that - whenever you enter VF you get a perma/short buff to speed or - upon entering VF we become immune to roots and snares for a few seconds just like our old fade talent and maybe increase our speed a tad aswel.

- And being since we are one with Shadow and Void magics, Shadowmend should not give Shadowpriests a debuff at all and replace Masochism with Void Tendrils. Disc should keep the shadowmend debuff since they are not attuned as much as we are. Or my favorite idea, instead of bringing back spectral guise we could have an abililty that lets us port to any target's shadow and any object/environmental shadow within a certain distance of the player.

▪3rd tier hardly anyone uses the Dominant Mind. It got nerfed to the ground during beta and was given a long ass cd and it also becomes completely useless in pvp. Why? Isnt there a more appealing solution to this? Why shaft us so hard on a talent already super niche?

▪4th tier is ok but I been saying since beta how Void Lord should be baked into our spec again or atleast into LotV.
Basically entering VF with Lingering Insanity without Void lord feels super sluggish and leaves bad taste after working up that huge stack of lingering and losing it the moment yu go back into VF. It shouldnt be a playstyle choice.

- Void Lord should instead be an active abilty that when used it removes your current lingering insanity stacks, saving it, and you'll have up to a minute to use it again and resume the stacks. If LI is under a certain time (i.e. under 5s-10s) this new VL can bring it up some and a CD can be put on it.

▪I think the 5th tier is pretty solid. Sanlayn is great for leveling and overall damage. AS is amazing at keeping up VF and SI is great for pvp (mobility) and when you overgear content or fast clears it provides more insanity and damage than AS.

▪The 6th tier is also great but Shadow Crash has to be reworked. I have 2 ideas for it. Have shadow crash scale with haste OR give 15 insanity like it does currently but also give Insanity over time per target hit. That way it'll feel and become more attractive in a tier all about boosts in insanity.

Now for the juicy lvl 100 Tier and my opinion on it.

▪LotV should definitely have something extra going on. To think something so simple can become a level 100. It is by far my default choice but only because of the choices it competes with. And I can safely say it is a super boring level 100 talent.

- Mind Spike is too restrictive when mobility is involved and it is too involved of a talent trying to get stacks or waiting for the perfect moment to use MB to detonate it. This talent should be completely reworked or replaced and not only myself but countless others been saying this since beta.

- Surrender to Madness. StM is a love or hate kind of talent. It has a death component because of how powerful it is (high risk, high reward gameplay). Since you WILL die when using this, it should offer tremendous damage in return. Now in practice if used right you will always beat any other spec period, no one should be able to beat you under the right circumstances. Amazing as that is, non-Spriests must hate that concept. That 1 talent alone gives spriests so much power regardless if yu die because in the end meters (how much damage is done) is what matters.

- At this point I think its too late to try and remove it. It became instantly iconic for the spec. Making StM baseline would have them mold the entire spec around that one abilty. And I for one am not ok with that. The only work around is either nerf it by not having such high reward tied to it or completely reworking it into something much cooler (super fun) than what it is now and giving a long explanation with a good apology.

- Mass hysteria is what makes our class what it is. It is the sole reason why StM is as strong as it is. Maybe reworking or replacing Mass Hysteria is the real answer.

P.S. Just for xtra flavor they should change the name and look to PW:S for shadow priests

[anon5123]

no one should be able to beat you under the right circumstances. Amazing as that is, non-Spriests must hate that concept.

People do hate it. Whenever a thread about DPS balance pops up and people start linking World of Logs parses, there's always immense salt directed at Shadow Priests, claiming how they're "broken beyond belief" and "insanely OP" and such.

[Vargur]

S2M put me off my Spriest because I didn't want to be pressured to literally kill myself regularly just to do competitive damage, if they make it baseline that won't change the situation at all. I would rather they completely reworked it to remove the death aspect or just removed it, it's an absurdly dominating part of the spec now.

Exactly my thoughts. Unfortunately we're in the minority and we're bullied because of it.

[Djriff]

Exactly my thoughts. Unfortunately we're in the minority and we're bullied because of it.

I think bullying is a bit of a stretch, but I get where your coming from. While I love the idea of StM and find it fun, I don't think it should be the only competitive talent. I know plenty of priests who agree with me on that (you being one of them).

[Dracodraco]

While not having read the entire discussion, I want to add that it's likely not just a priest tidbit. Most specs and classes have talents that are literally mandatory - for my hunter, for example, Sidewinders might as well be made baseline.