Is the range of sap a problem for pvp?

[Deleted]

If I recall sap is now passively a 10yd or so ranged ability. No need for talents or glyphs.

While I'm not against making sap viable in pvp, including against mounted enemies, I still don't understand why can rogues easily sap a hunter in the middle of its flare or a paladin in the middle of its consecration or any other AOE. What is the point then?

Back at the beginning of the game, rogues had penalties for their stealth mechanic which is arguably one of the strongest mechanics in pvp in any game. Stealth reduced movement speed, if they got too close you could see them, especially hunter's tracking ability. But now stealth has zero penalties, you can even move faster in stealth if you wish to pick a talent, you can shadow dance, teleport and all that. I'm not against making rogues more mobile or easier to play. However I do mind when the stealth mechanics becomes a mechanic with no downsides and barely any possibility to break them out of stealth except for demon hunters.

Sap at least should not be able to bypass someone standing in the MIDDLE of a hunter flare or consecration. What is the point of those abilities if they are useless now against invisibility?

[Rucati]

I mean if you really think all flare is good for is stopping Sap you probably don't care enough about PvP for this to be a problem.

[Deleted]

I mean if you really think all flare is good for is stopping Sap you probably don't care enough about PvP for this to be a problem.

Thats a cop out answer. Flare is anti stealth spell, however it does nothing against sap and its very hard to unstealth a rogue with the flare given the time it takes to launch

[Rucati]

Thats a cop out answer. Flare is anti stealth spell, however it does nothing against sap and its very hard to unstealth a rogue with the flare given the time it takes to launch

Okay and Sap is a one time use (usually) CC that breaks on damage, and it's literally the only ability that Rogues have to counter Flare.

If you want to stop Sap, instead of flaring on yourself and standing in it brainlessly use a little skill and Flare on top of the Rogue to immediately break him out of stealth, even has the added bonus of giving you free damage while he has to react to it.

[Deleted]

Okay and Sap is a one time use (usually) CC that breaks on damage, and it's literally the only ability that Rogues have to counter Flare.

If you want to stop Sap, instead of flaring on yourself and standing in it brainlessly use a little skill and Flare on top of the Rogue to immediately break him out of stealth, even has the added bonus of giving you free damage while he has to react to it.

Yeah because "use a little skill and flare on top of the rogue" is so evident right, just randomly "guess" where the rogue is, its not like he remains in stealth right?
You make it sound like flare is some instant 3km square ability,its not. Flare doesn't reach the floor immediately, any good rogue can avoid a hunter initiating a flare.

So you are just basically another rogue (given your post history) defending your class with weak arguments. I'm not here to talk about damage or strength, I'm talking about the issue with stealth currently

[Soisoisoi]

Flip the thought process here, OP. Why should Hunters have the ability to 100% deny a Rogue of their class-defining mechanic? Sap isn't a problem - if anything, out of the two, abilities like Flare (and previously, Faerie Fire) are the problem. You should not have abilities in the game that completely counter something an entire class (more so for Sub) is designed around.

FWIW, you can still see players in stealth if you are close, nothing has changed there. You can also still break them out with AoE/Flare/Traps (and Rogues can't even see Traps any more). So, yes, you can definitely break Stealth without being a Demon Hunter - ironically I have less issues with DH than I do with other classes breaking Stealth as you can easily predict Spectral Sight, you can't predict invisible traps, Flares, or other random instant AoEs.

You can also use Flare mid-combat to deny a Vanish/reset, rather than simply herp-derp stand in Flare to not let a Rogue get an opener.

Contrary to what you said in reply, @Rucati was correct - you clearly do not know enough about PvP to warrant the opinion considering you do not see Flare's many uses. You also seem to be under the impression that every Rogue is Sub - when in fact (unfortunately, imo) Assassination is the "go-to" spec for PvP right now. That means Stealth isn't used anywhere near as much, and there is no teleporting outside of Shadowstep.

[Rucati]

So you are telling me to just randomly throw flare somewhere nearby just in case it hits the rogue? Cause you seem to forget that the rogue remains in stealth after a sap, so how does "guessing" equal skill? You make it sound like flare is some instant 3km square ability,its not. Stealth doesn't reach the floor immediately, any good rogue can avoid a hunter initiating a flare.

So you are just basically another rogue (given your post history) defending your class with weak arguments. I'm not here to talk about damage or strength, I'm talking about the issue with stealth currently

I mean it's not like it's very hard to predict where a Rogue might be heading, and throw a flare in that direction. If you miss just go stand in it, if not congrats you win. Meanwhile you could always just get in combat with something else.

The issue with stealth currently is that there isn't an issue. In case you didn't realize Flare completely stops openers (aside from Sap, which isn't an opener) along with Vanish. I don't think I've ever seen anyone complain about Sap before, it's literally the most "whatever" CC in the game unless it's combo'd out of something else, which is *insanely* easy to stop with Flare.

[Deleted]

Why should Hunters have the ability to 100% deny a Rogue of their class-defining mechanic? Sap isn't a problem - if anything, out of the two, abilities like Flare (and previously, Faerie Fire) are the problem. You should not have abilities in the game that completely counter something an entire class (more so for Sub) is designed around.

FWIW, you can still see players in stealth if you are close, nothing has changed there. You can also still break them out with AoE/Flare/Traps (and Rogues can't even see Traps any more, so yeah...)

First off ,hunters don't have traps anymore except for survival (melee spec).

Second, god forbid that ONE class have specific strengths against another one

I don't see any rogue mentioning how their class completely shut downs both warlocks and shadow priests. And counter an entire class?Hyperbolic much? Sap doesn't make or break rogue,sorry to burst that bubble

[Soisoisoi]

First off ,hunters don't have traps anymore except for survival (melee spec).

Second, god forbid that ONE class have specific strengths against another one

I don't see any rogue mentioning how their class completely shut downs both warlocks and shadow priests. And counter an entire class?Hyperbolic much? Sap doesn't make or break rogue,sorry to burst that bubble

BM/MM are getting traps back, and - funnily enough, SV is also a Hunter spec, ergo, Hunters do have Traps. If you're not bothered about Hunters countering Rogues with Flare then why are you bothered about Sap "countering" Flare? Flare doesn't make or break Hunter, either. Feel free to read the rest of my post as I added to it.

[Deleted]

I mean it's not like it's very hard to predict where a Rogue might be heading, and throw a flare in that direction. If you miss just go stand in it, if not congrats you win. Meanwhile you could always just get in combat with something else.

The issue with stealth currently is that there isn't an issue. In case you didn't realize Flare completely stops openers (aside from Sap, which isn't an opener) along with Vanish. I don't think I've ever seen anyone complain about Sap before, it's literally the most "whatever" CC in the game unless it's combo'd out of something else, which is *insanely* easy to stop with Flare.

Its not whatever at all in battlegrounds. Might be in arena but no in BGs, especially cap based ones

[Soisoisoi]

Its not whatever at all in battlegrounds. Might be in arena but no in BGs, especially cap based ones

If you have half a brain you know to stand ~15-20y away from a Flag and you can't get sap-capped. Also, if you know you're on flag duty, you talent into Relentless and the duration of CC will be less than the flag cap. Specifically as a Hunter, you can just use your pet.

[Deleted]

BM/MM are getting traps back, and - funnily enough, SV is also a Hunter spec, ergo, Hunters do have Traps. If you're not bothered about Hunters countering Rogues with Flare then why are you bothered about Sap "countering" Flare? Flare doesn't make or break Hunter, either. Feel free to read the rest of my post as I added to it.

Maybe just maybe because flare is a pure anti stealth spell? Its nowhere near as strong as DH spectral vision but it should at least protect you from stealth abilities, including sap. Otherwise if a rogue just saps you until flares goes out, what is the purpose of the ability? Deny other form of openers? Well they have sap, why is it relevant? Also shadowstep with a fast opener has always worked even inside a flare so thats not an issue for rogues

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If you have half a brain you know to stand ~15-20y away from a Flag and you can't get sap-capped. Also, if you know you're on flag duty, you talent into Relentless and the duration of CC will be less than the flag cap. Also, as a Hunter, you can just use your pet.

Not everyone plays hunter with a pet or hunter in general. How does the majority of specs do counter sap? They don't

Just like stealth, it has ZERO drawbacks, stealth has become a "whatever" brainless button like any other dps class

[Segus1992]

First off ,hunters don't have traps anymore except for survival (melee spec).

Second, god forbid that ONE class have specific strengths against another one

I don't see any rogue mentioning how their class completely shut downs both warlocks and shadow priests. And counter an entire class?Hyperbolic much? Sap doesn't make or break rogue,sorry to burst that bubble

Hunters DO have strengths against Rogue. It's called Flare. Just because it's not a 100% counter against Stealth doesn't mean it's not a strength. Failproof counters are boring, counters that require skill is what's fun.

As someone who's played quite a bit of both Rogue and Hunter PvP (mostly Hunter) Flare is fine.

[Deleted]

WTB time when rogue had to actually come close to sap.

[Deleted]

Hunters DO have strengths against Rogue. It's called Flare. Just because it's not a 100% counter against Stealth doesn't mean it's not a strength. Failproof counters are boring, counters that require skill is what's fun.

As someone who's played quite a bit of both Rogue and Hunter PvP (mostly Hunter) Flare is fine.

Flare is fine if rogues have stealth drawbacks such as moving slower or without subterfuge. Now rogues move at 100% (if not more) speed in stealth and can easily avoid a hunter trying to flare them out.

I like flare and I like stealth but one has been simplified while the other has remained the same. Now flare only works to have a chance to target the rogue, but given how fast they move in stealth, its pointless more often than not nowadays. There is no skill in flaring out a rogue, you basically have to guess "right or left? near or not?" not knowing if he used sprint, teleport, if he just left,etc..thats just guessing

[Rucati]

Its not whatever at all in battlegrounds. Might be in arena but no in BGs, especially cap based ones

Oh yeah those things that are not at all competitive and that the game isn't balanced around? You're right, maybe in those it's a better ability. Good thing those aren't competitive and don't need to be discussed as if they are.

Just like stealth, it has ZERO drawbacks, stealth has become a "whatever" brainless button like any other dps class

Yeah that brainless button we press before we fight anyone because it can't be used in combat, you're right.

Beginning to think you're just trolling, you can't be that clueless.

[DechCJC]

Thats a cop out answer. Flare is anti stealth spell, however it does nothing against sap and its very hard to unstealth a rogue with the flare given the time it takes to launch

Oh god, don't talk to me about the hunters that just sit in flare in camouflage waiting for the rogue to just reveal himself. Jesus.

Honestly I think it's fine; I play a lot of rogue/mage (as a mage) and my rogue partner has a lot of trouble as it is sapping people who just run around on their mounts while still giving us time to swap back, it'd be a nightmare if the range was reduced.

[Deleted]

Oh yeah those things that are not at all competitive and that the game isn't balanced around? You're right, maybe in those it's a better ability. Good thing those aren't competitive and don't need to be discussed as if they are.



Yeah that brainless button we press before we fight anyone because it can't be used in combat, you're right.

Beginning to think you're just trolling, you can't be that clueless.

Rated BGs are competitive whether you like it or not

[Rucati]

Rated BGs are competitive whether you like it or not

Ignoring the fact that rated BGs aren't competitive no matter who you ask, they also aren't balanced or even supposed to be balanced. Blizzard themselves says they balance around 3v3, that's why there's a 3v3 tournament but no rated BG tournaments.

[Deleted]

Oh yeah those things that are not at all competitive and that the game isn't balanced around? You're right, maybe in those it's a better ability. Good thing those aren't competitive and don't need to be discussed as if they are.



Yeah that brainless button we press before we fight anyone because it can't be used in combat, you're right.

Beginning to think you're just trolling, you can't be that clueless.

Yeah just like some classes such as rogue are great at 1vs1 and also 3vs3 right? I wonder why some other classes don't have that privilege but I guess you don't care.

Also rogue is not less braindead than any other dps specs in Legion. Tell me about that shadowstrike/shadow dance "ultra hard" gameplay

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Ignoring the fact that rated BGs aren't competitive no matter who you ask, they also aren't balanced or even supposed to be balanced. Blizzard themselves says they balance around 3v3, that's why there's a 3v3 tournament but no rated BG tournaments.

So in your opinion only 3vs 3 should be decent pvp and the rest garbage?

Reminds me of those mythic raider justifying that 90% of the rest of the game is crap because "doesn't matter"

Nice elitism