PVP So unrewarding for casual play

[ComputerNerd]

Nah, I want the rewards to be less focused on the binary win/loss.... and for them to find a middle ground where EVEN IF YOU WIN... if you sat around and didnt do squat, you don't get crazy rewards. And on the reverse side of the coin... EVEN IF YOU LOSE... if you were the allstar of the team, you should get rewarded more then the trash of the winning team.

They have all the elements there to reward the top 20-40% of players for each side... as well as apply more emphasis on the objective bonuses. They simply choose not to.

I agree with that.
In Arathi Basin for example there is an honorable defender buff, which is I think a very good idea vastly underutilised.
A big part of the problem in my opinion is players who obsess over the damage meters, but put that damage into irrelevant kills.
Doing damage relevant to the outcome would be most likely when it is is proximity to an objective, be that a flag carrier or a stationary capture point etc.

[Lucetia]

Almost one hour AV versus the Russians.

Yes I know they always win and its best just to leave at the start, blah blah blah....

But we really tried and got to within 70 points by the end when they won on reinforcements....

Reward?

450 AP

While losing is frustrating, the main thing I find unrewarding is that I can't pick and choose what pieces of gear to get. By this I mean merely the appearances and instead get to play RNG and hope to get all the pieces to mog the whole set rather than (currently 10 pieces of each) of the same piece.

[procne]

I remember when I used to join those 1h long AV battles back in vanilla, simply for the fun of it, not the rewards.

If people play PvP for rewards only then I kinda miss the point of it.

[Lucetia]

I agree with that.
In Arathi Basin for example there is an honorable defender buff, which is I think a very good idea vastly underutilised.
A big part of the problem in my opinion is players who obsess over the damage meters, but put that damage into irrelevant kills.
Doing damage relevant to the outcome would be most likely when it is is proximity to an objective, be that a flag carrier or a stationary capture point etc.

I like that buff there as I tend to stay at BS doing callouts for when it's being invaded and such. There's another BG (can't think of name) that has a south goblin mines that I do the same. The honor you get isn't anything amazing and why people go for kills so they get more honor quicker and agree it could use some additional benefit.

Edit: So I just realized in Battle for Gilneas: Mines the flags don't have that defender buff. Made me sad since I stay at mines and always defend it, but oh well.

[Ealyssa]

It's a game, kid.

Yeah it's a game. And you should learn to accept to loose, kid...

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

1) PvP is more casual-friendly in Legion than any previous x-pac. Even casuals accumulate honor talents just doing the WQs, so we are on a much more even playing field than when PvP gear was a decisive factor.
2) You don't have to do long BGs like AV to satisfy the weekly; you can exclude any two from your random queue.
3) So much of your success in casual random BGs will depend on the relative competence and experience of the teams. How many of the players on either side even understand the objectives? How many will waste time just randomly fighting each other? So you can try to explain the basics while you wait for timer to countdown, and/or just re-queue till you find a good group.
4) Don't fall into the trap of "Alliance sucks Horde always wins" or "Horde sucks Alliance always wins"... In reality it's the same players! Like seriously, 80% of WoW players have toons of both factions. It's same players and same classes - just different skins.

I've started doing a lot more casual PvP since I realized how much AP is available. Overall I'm winning about 50-50, and I'm ok with that. Sometimes my group is fail but the other group is even more fail. Sometimes I think I'm getting better only to run into some more experienced PvPers and get seriously humbled. :P Every now and then, I actually do something clever that helps our side win! Those are the fun ones.

[Hyxi]

If people get basically nothing for losing, they're going to stop queuing after a couple losses if their faction is getting wrecked. If you want the losers to feel like their time was wasted so they'll stop queuing, you're voting against your own best interests....

[Teri]

Been pvping on 3 chars this week, and still got a decent amount of stuff for winning, however losing giving nothing(beside honor gained) can be annoying.

Blacklisted AV and isle as those take the longest for sometimes pure pve matches.

Imo there should always be some form of token, you can exchange for an AP token or like 3 loss tokens for 1 green strongbox (contain gold/potions/mark of honor)

[AetherMcLoud]

Why are you not blacklisting AV?

[Higgit]

Why are you not blacklisting AV?

That shouldn't have to be the only answer

[Halicia]

Why are you not blacklisting AV?

Isle of Conquest & Strand of the Ancients are two good reasons, imo.

[Snegovik]

Why should you get rewarded for losing?

It's like these medals they give out at schools so everyone is a winnner! No, fuck off. People win and people lose not everything is meant for everyone.

I agree with this, this is the new mentality our society is floating to: every1 is a winner, not the finish place but the participation that matters... what kind of bunch of BS is it lmao? I dont see getting a glad title/mount for losing games @ high rated arena and not getting above tittle cut off. I dont see ppl getting rewards for losing an RBG game that takes at least 30 minutes just to assemble, heck even in PvE even casual LFR ppl when whipe on a boss, do not get a reward, so why should ppl in casual pvp get a meaningful reward, even if you lose you get some minor rewards, so casuals should be happy for that.

[Kagthul]

I agree with this, this is the new mentality our society is floating to: every1 is a winner, not the finish place but the participation that matters... what kind of bunch of BS is it lmao? I dont see getting a glad title/mount for losing games @ high rated arena and not getting above tittle cut off. I dont see ppl getting rewards for losing an RBG game that takes at least 30 minutes just to assemble, heck even in PvE even casual LFR ppl when whipe on a boss, do not get a reward, so why should ppl in casual pvp get a meaningful reward, even if you lose you get some minor rewards, so casuals should be happy for that.

... why is it so hard for people to understand?

The game is about progressing your character. Period. End. Full Stop. That's the entire point of a progression-based, gear-based MMO.

If there are two activities i can participate in, and they both take forty minutes, but one of them has a 50% chance of giving me ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to progress my character, guess which activity i wont be doing?

[Joodoc]

Nah, I want the rewards to be less focused on the binary win/loss.... and for them to find a middle ground where EVEN IF YOU WIN... if you sat around and didnt do squat, you don't get crazy rewards. And on the reverse side of the coin... EVEN IF YOU LOSE... if you were the allstar of the team, you should get rewarded more then the trash of the winning team.

They have all the elements there to reward the top 20-40% of players for each side... as well as apply more emphasis on the objective bonuses. They simply choose not to.

They have all the elements? really? How should they reward you? Based off HPS and DPS? So thus warlocks will usually top the charts because they do good damage and have insane self healing/absorbs? Plus this rewards people who sit int he middle and kill people as opposed to DOING the objective, such as in WSG. Using objectives instead? So in WSG all that matters is getting that click in on the flag? Well for caps certain classes are better at it, for returns melee has a huge advantage(range can be too far to click it), so that's not fair, and the list is limited(if no returns only 3 per WSG IF you win, potentially none if you lose, even if it is a close 0-1 match!). So being near an objective(E.G. guarding flag, attacking FC, carrying flag), nope, that means people can AFK near points and be rewarded(And you can't just look at activity, because guarding a flag vs. AFKing near a flag looks VERY similar as far as the logs are concerned).

There is no good way to reward participation. Likewise, even your best player on a team may not be accomplishing much, because 9 players on the other team have it out for that player, and he is keeping them busy. That is actually a huge asset to his team, as 1 player is keeping 9 busy, but logs wise it looks really bad, as he isn't getting many kills, is likely dying a lot, and isn't accomplishing much.

And if you are rewarding people for losing, then people will just enter the BG, do nothing or near nothing, and get the reward.

As for people complaining it is about the other 39/19/9 players, yes that is true, they do affect it, but so long as you are active every match you play, you have a higher chance of winning, as there are only 9 potentials for duds on your team, and there are 10 potentials for duds on the other team. This means the odds are slightly higher that the other team will be less active than your team, as the other team can range from 0 to 10 active players, but your team can only range form 1 to 10 active players.

And while AV and IoC can massively emphasize this difference, you can always blacklist those two, and then you don't have to do them. It makes it less noticeable if you enter a WSG, are massively outclassed, and you lose in 5-10 minutes. Then you just get on with it and enter a new one, get a new chance to have some better gear. The better you are, the better your odds of winning(No, you will never be able to carry a team entirely by yourself, unless the other team is mostly duds, but a VERY good player can make up for multiple duds on a team).


Oh and P.S. if they start rewarding you for losing, they will either nerf winning, or increase the costs of stuff to compensate, so you end up not coming out ahead unless you are more of a dud than an actual participant on your team.

[rda]

There is no good way to reward participation. Likewise, even your best player on a team may not be accomplishing much, because 9 players on the other team have it out for that player, and he is keeping them busy. That is actually a huge asset to his team, as 1 player is keeping 9 busy, but logs wise it looks really bad, as he isn't getting many kills, is likely dying a lot, and isn't accomplishing much.

There is.

Rating.

Make all PVP rated (solo queue). Done. If you are doing something that actually works towards a win, your rating will increase, that's the reward. If you are doing something that does not work towards a win, your rating will decrease. (Don't even need to tie gear to this, the rating is its own reward - pride, achievements, etc. You can hand out gear just for participation, not even for wins.)

[Deleted]

Almost one hour AV versus the Russians.

Yes I know they always win and its best just to leave at the start, blah blah blah....

But we really tried and got to within 70 points by the end when they won on reinforcements....

Reward?

450 AP

Blacklisting solves this issue.
I imagine it is pretty rewarding for them in turn.

[rda]

I imagine it is pretty rewarding for them in turn.

It's awfully boring, to say the truth. It's like farming mobs a couple of notches below your limit in D3 - you get a slow stream of rewards (legendaries in D3, HKs in WoW), but it's very mundane, these things are generally talked about in terms of rewards/hour.

[Schwert]

There is.

Rating.

Make all PVP rated (solo queue). Done. If you are doing something that actually works towards a win, your rating will increase, that's the reward. If you are doing something that does not work towards a win, your rating will decrease. (Don't even need to tie gear to this, the rating is its own reward - pride, achievements, etc. You can hand out gear just for participation, not even for wins.)

This is an MMORPG and not a MoBA.
The core game itself is not competitive and forcing the ladder on people is only going to piss off the people who play super casual. The moment there's a "ranking" attached, people are going to just turn away because of how volatile the community.
Besides, the ladder is dead now.

Unless you start throwing tons of rewards in the sub 2k range to get people to get over their warranted unease/hate of the rated PvP community, this can only deter more people from trying and at best add a little more fluff to the ladder.

We just simply need more rewards that aren't for 2400+/Gladiator players. Until people realize the game doesn't revolve around the few thousand players who still care about top ratings we're not going to make any progress.

[rda]

This is an MMORPG and not a MoBA.

Not everything in an MMORPG must have gear progression (RPG) in it.

Do pet battles give you gear? No. But people play them. There is some progression in the form of collecting more and better pets. Well, PVP ratings are the same. They aren't gear, yet the numbers are in clear relation to each other. And they may give achievements, titles, consumables, transmog items, whatever.

I don't think "WoW is not a MOBA" is a big argument if we are talking about changes to PVP. For PVE, maybe, for PVP, not really. PVP is different from PVE in that people find fun in playing *against* each other, that's an endless stream of fun, unlike bosses. Would they play without gear rewards? Well, WoW devs think they wouldn't, but other games demonstrate that they will plenty - if PVP itself is good enough. Those who play MOBAs today might play both that and WoW PVP if WoW PVP is good and entertaining. Not sure what would be wrong in that.

[Omaski]

This idea makes sense.

but how would the system determine who contributed to a win? for example, lets take a arathi basin match...typically, in casuals, ally goes ST/Lm/mines while horde goes farm/BS/mines. lets say ally controls ST/LM/BS, if i, as ally, decided to guard ST the entire match and the horde rarely even peeked at it, resulting in me having 0kbs...althought ally wins, i have 0's across the board but i defended a node does that mean i contributed nothing to the win? and on the other hand, 3 badasses are road killing hordies in between farm and LM basically stopping any attempt for them to cap LM or ST...they have 15kb each...does that mean they contributed nothing to the win? And this is just for a base sitting map.

there is no way you can truly gauge who actually contributed to any random win. i think any healing/damage done in close proximity to a flag/cart/node (friendly/enemy) should net at least 3x's more honor than KBs.

to be quite blunt, BLizz is treating PvP like a stepson compared to PvE and because i do both PvE and PvP competitively i can see the reasoning behind when people who just PvP get mad because PvE'ers want free drops for losing, but "losing" in PvE doesnt get you free drops either. you MUST put in the time and effort to get the rewards. sucking in PvP doesnt get you loot just like sucking in PvE doesnt get you loot