[Movie] Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Sidious said Vader was Sith, therefore Vader was a Sith. Vader also received plenty of training from Sidious. Sidious was serious about who is and isn't a Sith. He was quick to correct someone if they tried to themself a Sith (or even his apprentice), Vader wouldn't have the title Darth if Sidious didn't accept him as a the Sith.



Luke was a Jedi Master, its his job to know the difference between someone using the dark side and a Sith.

I’d agree Vader was a sith but not really sithy if you know what I mean compared to the old republic sith or even Sidious.

Luke how ever Is in no way a master Jedi by any standers. He spent like what half a year training in a swamp? If even that. Jedi spends years trading before they get to knight let alone master Luke is only a Jedi because all the real Jedi are dead. He didn’t even read the old Jedi books I doudt he knows the difference between a sith or any one using the dark side.

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To be given the title of Darth makes him a Sith. Palpatine seemed to take more of a self study approach to training but he did have something like 20 years to train Vader.

Palpatine gives litteraly every one the name Darth, I always saw it that he had planed to train him but gave up on that when he lost his limbs. Instead he used Vader as a tool rather then teach him.

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In Rebels Vader is directly referred to as a Sith Lord. Kylo Ren and Snoke have not been referred to as anything other than dark side users.

Not saying that's a conclusive statement as far as lore wise him actually being a true Sith, just putting it out there that we have canonical references to Vader as a Sith whereas we have nothing like that for Kylo or Snoke.

Do they really not call them sith? I must have never noticed.

[Endus]

The surprise of Luke having come to believe that the Jedi has to end and being this unrecognizable negative character does not serve the franchise well in my opinion.

It's what the franchise needed, and this film having some "I'm not teaching that garbage to anyone else" factor was the one thing I absolutely needed to see to think it was going down the right path.

The Jedi religion is garbage. It led to the hubris and arrogance that led to the collapse of the Republic and the genocide of the entire Order. It's a faith that extols overtly evil values, and freely uses its powers to manipulate and control secular governments. They aren't "better" than the Sith; the Jedi Order of the prequels is a monastic group that has been controlling galactic affairs from behind the scenes for a thousand years, and engaging in an ongoing campaign of genocide against Force users who won't join them (and particularly any who label themselves Sith).

This nonsense is why Luke almost killed Ben Solo, his nephew. And he realized that. Which is why he won't teach it. Because that shit encourages murder, and the quashing of any emotional connections you have, to family, friends, any of that.

This is also why it's pretty important that, when starting to teach Rey, he told her to reach out with her feelings. It's why he didn't quash her asking questions, as Yoda did to him. Because he realizes the flaws.

And hell, so did Yoda, in the end. That's why Yoda's force ghost torched the tree, when Luke hesitated.

The more I think about it the more I would have wanted them to make him the Jedi Master of the New Jedi Order training the next generation at the Jedi Academy.

That happened off screen, before the movie began. That's sort of why he ran away, because he almost killed Ben, and got all his students killed.

She also kicks the shit out of Kylo Ren, lifts tons of boulders, does a mind trick after not knowing what the force is a day earlier, and just seems perfect.

She staves off a heavily wounded Kylo Ren, and managed to escape, she uses a mind trick after she feels it being used on her, and the boulders thing is just raw strength, which they established she has oodles of. Way more than Luke did.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

People probably won’t agree but why should we care what the actor thinks of the character? It’s not like he was working on all the eu crap that came out over the years. He plays a roll how he feels about the character he is playing doesn’t matter as he doesn’t write the character.

Also jedis totally give up just look at yoga and obi wan.

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Luke took three movies to be true powerful. Anakin took three movies to be powerful.
Rey took half a movie.

Luke took one movie to blow up the Death Star Anakin took one to build a bot a speeder and blow up a space station. There all Mary Sues.

[Zeek Daniels]

Luke took three movies to be true powerful. Anakin took three movies to be powerful.
Rey took half a movie.

Yea your interpretation of powerful is way off. By your logic Broom kid is super powerful. Just because you use the force does not mean your as powerful as Luke, Vader, Yoda etc. After 2 movies we now know Rey was chosen by the force to be a strong lightside user. Thats why shes so strong. Snoke says this. As the Darkside gets stronger so does the light. If kylo ren is one of the more stronger dark users in the universe then Rey is the balance to that darkness.

The problem people are having is they accept anything that is told about the force and jedi/sith in the prequels and the original trilogy but refuse to accept the truths about the force in TFA and TLJ.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

She also kicks the shit out of Kylo Ren, lifts tons of boulders, does a mind trick after not knowing what the force is a day earlier, and just seems perfect.

She would have to be comptly incompident or forcelese to lose to kylo.

[Mormolyce]

There is nothing brilliant about what they did. They set up a big mystery about Rey' s parents in E7 and then turned around in E8 to tell us the twist "they are no one inportant". The ESB twist works because they didn't spend time in ANH telling the viewers/hinting that Vader was his dad. It's like if Obi Wan kept telling Luke at random, "btw Vader isn't your dad. I swear he isn't" Then in ESB surprise he really is! We got you good!! What a great twist.

If you think about it, it should've been obvious from TFA. Rey is convinced her parents are going to return so she can't leave Jakku - but they obviously aren't. It's clearly implied that she's in denial about the situation with her parents.

She also can't be the child of anyone important in the franchise, because whoever her parents were they sold her into slavery on a dustbowl planet and then abandoned her. Which beloved Star Wars character do you want to find out did that?

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The Jedi religion is garbage. It led to the hubris and arrogance that led to the collapse of the Republic and the genocide of the entire Order. It's a faith that extols overtly evil values, and freely uses its powers to manipulate and control secular governments. They aren't "better" than the Sith; the Jedi Order of the prequels is a monastic group that has been controlling galactic affairs from behind the scenes for a thousand years, and engaging in an ongoing campaign of genocide against Force users who won't join them (and particularly any who label themselves Sith).

They absolutely are better than the Sith, anyone who isn't an evil murdering bastard is better than the Sith.

The only reason the Jedi Order sucks is that they were written terribly in the prequels. And some expanded fiction.

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A couple of black market deals here and there. Maybe a shipment of munitions goes missing somewhere. A couple of pirates attract trade convoys. People knew about the First Order, the Republic didn't they were a threat.

I liked the idea, I just wish they'd explored it further and made more of an effort for it to make sense.

[Nefarious Tea]

Really, the only reason to explain Snoke's background is for universe building purposes, which they will mostly do in an upcoming book. It doesn't matter in the current saga.

Honestly, I think it's as simple as "Snoke doesn't need backstory, and we're better off leaving things mysterious and shadowy than shining a bright light on something people won't like."

Except that doesn't work. The Jedi either indoctrinated or killed every Force-sensitive they can find (as you said, Endus), and then Palpatine had every Jedi killed - and every other Force-sensitive he could get his hands on (as we see in Rebels) - because they might threaten his power. In a situation like that, you can't have some battle-scarred old man show up out of nowhere. He's old enough that he'd have been around during the Jedi Purge. SOMEONE knew about him, especially considering how easily strong in the Force he is. He's also twelve feet tall; a little harder to hide on your consular ship than Yoda.

Yea, the Emperor worked without backstory in the original trilogy, because literally what he is, is in the name. He's the Emperor, which means he controls the evil Empire. Anyone with even a basic understanding of history is told, right there, all they need to know for narrative purposes. But This trilogy is set after, and within living memory of characters in it of the original trilogy (TFA happens exactly thirty years after the battle of Endor). That's my problem with it. You have to explain how someone so strong in the Force survived everything that happened in the first two trilogies. Luke even tells Rey he knew about Snoke before Ben Solo became Kylo Ren. Which stands to reason that Luke knew about him very early on, if not before, he started training Ben.

The opening crawl of TFA tells us all we need to know about the First Order - it's the renamed Imperial Remnant (similar to how Ben Solo is clearly Jacen Solo, and several other post-EU examples). Snoke, on the other hand, demands at least some explanation, given what we know and see in other canon media. If TFA and TLJ existed in a vacuum, it would be fine, because from a narrative standpoint, as several people have pointed out, he is essentially the Emperor from a story perspective. But episodes VII and VIII don't. He's not a Sith? Fine. I have no issue with that. Is he a fallen Jedi? It's logical, but neither is it mandatory. But you have to explain how a guy who is that old and that strong evaded both the Jedi and the Empire for decades.

[GennGreymane]

[Fayolynn]

Luke pulling that saber was like the very first practical use of Force done by him in the movies. With no training.

In the time between ANH and ESB what are the chances Obi Wan never reached out to Luke to give him any guidance with the Force? What are the chances that he put zero time and effort on honing his skills?

[Sky High]

While not a big fan of this movie and I thought the characterizations were weak save for Ren, I can’t help but lap up the butt hurt MRA/conservative tears. I guess that’s one thing to look forward to for the next ones.

And yes I know their not being serious but we have people being serious in this very thread.

[Grimbold21]

Just saw the movie. Didn't like it.

Throughout the film I had a lingering feeling of "ok, when does this get interesting? What am I supposed to feel here?". Honestly it felt like a bunch of random scenes hastily put together to create something close to a storyline.

I guess at this point, it's beating the dead horse, but what was the point of Finn/Rose side story? It added nothing to it.

[Archon14]

what was the point of Finn/Rose side story?

Well I saw a couple of reasons.

1. One of the motives of this movie is failure, most characters failed in some way and it's meant as a learning experience for Finn and Rose. And both Poe and those two had no idea that Leia already had a different plan in motion.
2. We got to see a different perspective on people in the galaxy. Until this film, it's been mostly the militant and the oppressed, and the corruption outside of that was pretty much smugglers and bounty hunters in dusty towns, with a dash of pod racing. Now we got to see a bit of the corrupt elite, in a beautiful city rather than a desert, getting the picture of just how far you can get as a "bad guy" in this universe.
3. There was a part about selling weapons to both sides, which is a good lesson to learn, and I think it's important. Or at least important to Finn.
4. Fourth, it's important to what happens after, since you have the whole "if they don't fail, they don't get caught. If they don't get caught, Benicio del Toro doesn't reveal the information to the First Order. If he doesn't do that, they don't target the transports instead of the last ship left running. And if they don't do that, you won't have that glorious lightspeed collision scene that considerably wrecks the First Order."
5. Introduction to the child(ren) who may represent the next Resistance/Jedi Order/whatever.

Sure, it may have been a little boring compared to the other arcs of the story that were happening at the same time, but I think I was satisfied with what I saw during that story, or at least what I think the director wanted to show.

[PACOX]

I’d agree Vader was a sith but not really sithy if you know what I mean compared to the old republic sith or even Sidious.

Luke how ever Is in no way a master Jedi by any standers. He spent like what half a year training in a swamp? If even that. Jedi spends years trading before they get to knight let alone master Luke is only a Jedi because all the real Jedi are dead. He didn’t even read the old Jedi books I doudt he knows the difference between a sith or any one using the dark side.

Luke is very much considered a Jedi Master. He faced down two Sith, became a Jedi scholar, established a Jedi temple.

Palpatine gives litteraly every one the name Darth, I always saw it that he had planed to train him but gave up on that when he lost his limbs. Instead he used Vader as a tool rather then teach him.

Actually he was very particular about who he gave that title to and who was allowed to call themselves Sith. Not sure if you watched the cartoons but Asajj wasn't allowed to call herself a Sith. Palpatine made it very clear to Maul that he was no longer Sith. In Rebels the Inquistors are not Sith.

Do they really not call them sith? I must have never noticed.

Snoke did not consider himself or Kylo Sith.

[buck008]

If established Jedi/Sith (albeit no longer canon) lore has taught us anything, it's that training is over rated. Actual talent in the Force was overwhelmingly mostly natural ability. Training was basically on focus and control. The great majority of Jedi training was dogmatic. It's why they train in temples. They learn to be warrior priests of their order. So the training is first religious, second martial, and third force use.

This whole training argument with Rey is crazy to me.

[Nefarious Tea]

If established Jedi/Sith (albeit no longer canon) lore has taught us anything, it's that training is over rated. Actual talent in the Force was overwhelmingly mostly natural ability. Training was basically on focus and control. The great majority of Jedi training was dogmatic. It's why they train in temples. They learn to be warrior priests of their order. So the training is first religious, second martial, and third force use.

This whole training argument with Rey is crazy to me.

My favorite part of why people are like "Rey does shit that took Luke YEARS!" is that they forget Luke thought it was all bullshit and didn't believe Obi-wan and barely believed Yoda. But the FIRST thing Rey hears about the Force is from Han "hokey religions" Solo saying everything is true. All of it. So right off the bat, Rey 150% believes in the Force, because here's literally a living legend telling her that shit is as real as day.

[Shadowferal]

This whole training argument with Rey is crazy to me.

Why? It's real life.

When it comes to "training vs natural ability," someone who is trained will always win out.

[roninwookie]

Question, and it might have been answered before, but we are 120+ pages into this and i dont wanna read it all.

Did Luke's passing do his character justice? My brother said he giggled because he thought it was too silly a scene. I didn't cry but I feel like it was a good send off.

[ohiostate124]

Why? It's real life.

When it comes to "training vs natural ability," someone who is trained will always win out.

And the movie pretty much says Rey and Kylo are basically equal in terms of raw talent so Kylo should definitely not be losing to Rey the first day she picked up a lightsaber.

[buck008]

And the movie pretty much says Rey and Kylo are basically equal in terms of raw talent so Kylo should definitely not be losing to Rey the first day she picked up a lightsaber.

I mean, he kicked the shit out of her and Finn until she tapped into the Force and got a good hit in before the planet fell apart. Oh after he was emotionally a mess after killing his dad and had been shot in the damn chest by Chewie. Also, the movie already established she was a scrapper. So her fighting ability shouldn't really be called into question.

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Why? It's real life.

When it comes to "training vs natural ability," someone who is trained will always win out.

That's a cool statement if you clip the rest of my post about what the training actually consisted of.

[Ragedaug]

Question, and it might have been answered before, but we are 120+ pages into this and i dont wanna read it all.

Did Luke's passing do his character justice? My brother said he giggled because he thought it was too silly a scene. I didn't cry but I feel like it was a good send off.

To me it was just as useful as Obi-Wan's send off, and made as much sense as his mother dying.

Padme: "I have a broken heart" --> abandons her kids
Luke: "I'm really tired" --> abandons his sister
Ben: "Well, those are at least as legit reasons as I had for dying" --> abandons Luke

Star Wars Moral of the Story: If you don't want to try any more, you can just quit, become a space ghost and act morally superior to everyone else.


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As far as Episode 8 goes, it felt like the end of the Star Wars I know. I feel absolutely no anticipation for Episode 9, which just seems odd to me. Maybe the trailers will change my mind, but at this point I'm planning on just waiting until it comes out on Hulu.