[Movie] Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

[Endus]

I've always seen the Jedi Order as a means of mitigating absolute corruption, granted the corruption was stronger than the order at the end of Episode 3. But I see it in the vein of the "power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely" type thing. Without the strict rules of the Order, every being with force potential who comes into their Force Powers has the chance to become the next Palpatine or Exar Kun. Then the next question is, without the Jedi Order and their rules, who's left to fight and defeat the Palpatines and Kuns?

The one major component of the mythology that the universe operates in, in this setting, is that the Force provides balance. There's a solid argument that Vader was prophesied to bring balance by murdering both sides, and resetting the scale, so to speak. And that's how it worked out, in the end. In Eps 7 and 8, there seems to be balance, if you consider Snoke and Luke to be dark-mirror analogues, and the same for Rey and Kylo Ren.

Frankly, they don't need an organized force to try and produce that balance, and the Jedi's attempt to create such created imbalance. Hence Vader murdering them all.

This is sort of the entire point that The Last Jedi is trying to drive home. Without the Jedi Order, there wouldn't need to be Palpatines and Kuns to oppose them. Balance.

I wouldn't be totally shocked if Episode 9 involves Rey and Kylo becoming largely "grey", learning to be in control of the dark sides of their own psyches. Kylo needs to, to get himself under control and see that there is still light in him, Rey needs to come to an understanding of the Dark Side, rather than fearing and fleeing it. Rey might lean more Light, and Kylo more Dark, but one trying to kill the other is basically pointless. It eliminates the enemy you know, and the Force will produce a new unknown enemy to fill the void.

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I thought conspiracy theories weren't allowed on these boards? There's zero evidence of Jedi killing force users for not joining their order. It was a handful of Masters in RotS that decided to kill Palpatine instead of risk arresting him, and it was Anakin that seeing this as a betrayal of the Jedi ideals that caused him to stop Master Windu.

Well, there's the thousand years or murdering anyone who labels themselves Sith, just for being Sith, regardless of what they do. The Masters going after Palpatine is just the latest iteration of that. Recall that being Sith just means they follow a different faith regarding the Force. It's literally an ongoing religious genocide.

There's also the pretty glaring lack of other Force users around.

Qui-gonn clearly states, when presenting Anakin to the Council, that "Had he been born in the Republic, we would have identified him early, and he would have become Jedi, no doubt...he has the way." That's not stating there was a choice there, or that there were other options. They usually took new younglings in as infants. They never had a choice in the matter.

Without the EU, we're short on full details, but there's certainly no evidence of non-Jedi force users, and the Jedi, by canon, grabbed all the kids born in the Republic who showed signs of being able to touch the Force.

It may be reading between the lines a bit, but it's not a particularly deep dive.

[I Push Buttons]

This is sort of the entire point that The Last Jedi is trying to drive home. Without the Jedi Order, there wouldn't need to be Palpatines and Kuns to oppose them. Balance.

A pretty dumb point since they also drive home the fact that the force is everywhere always and people will always use it for good and evil ends.

And then at the end of the movie they just throw the whole point out with Luke exclaiming "I won't be the last Jedi..."

The movie is stupid, the plot is stupid, the writing is stupid. It is a farce of the Star Wars IP.

[Endus]

A pretty dumb point since they also drive home the fact that the force is everywhere always and people will always use it for good and evil ends.

And then at the end of the movie they just throw the whole point out with Luke exclaiming "I won't be the last Jedi..."

The movie is stupid, the plot is stupid, the writing is stupid. It is a farce of the Star Wars IP.

If that's your measure of "stupid writing", you really don't have any business claiming that the Star Wars IP represents good writing. The original trilogy was chock full of stupid stuff like "kessel run in 12 parsecs".

[I Push Buttons]

If that's your measure of "stupid writing", you really don't have any business claiming that the Star Wars IP represents good writing. The original trilogy was chock full of stupid stuff like "kessel run in 12 parsecs".

I never claimed the original had good writing, Lucas was a hack when it came to writing scripts.

[Tackhisis]

"Godspeed."

"Godspeed" is from "good" and "speed".

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From the same scene

That snow and blood are so fake...

[Elim Garak]

If that's your measure of "stupid writing", you really don't have any business claiming that the Star Wars IP represents good writing. The original trilogy was chock full of stupid stuff like "kessel run in 12 parsecs".

Nothing is stupid about the kessel run, other than people who don't understand how hyperspace works in SW.

[Endus]

Nothing is stupid about the kessel run, other than people who don't understand how hyperspace works in SW.

I know the retcon explanations that have been invented to justify it.

When it was written, it was written because George Lucas didn't know that "parsec" was a unit of distance, not time. Everything else is a retcon added to try and make it less egregiously stupid in retrospect.

[Super Kami Dende]

I know the retcon explanations that have been invented to justify it.

When it was written, it was written because George Lucas didn't know that "parsec" was a unit of distance, not time. Everything else is a retcon added to try and make it less egregiously stupid in retrospect.

Because I'm sure so many people at that time knew what a Parsec was, thus caused massive confusion in the Fanbase.

[Aurrora]

The one major component of the mythology that the universe operates in, in this setting, is that the Force provides balance. There's a solid argument that Vader was prophesied to bring balance by murdering both sides, and resetting the scale, so to speak. And that's how it worked out, in the end. In Eps 7 and 8, there seems to be balance, if you consider Snoke and Luke to be dark-mirror analogues, and the same for Rey and Kylo Ren.


Well, there's the thousand years or murdering anyone who labels themselves Sith, just for being Sith, regardless of what they do. The Masters going after Palpatine is just the latest iteration of that. Recall that being Sith just means they follow a different faith regarding the Force. It's literally an ongoing religious genocide.

There's also the pretty glaring lack of other Force users around.

Qui-gonn clearly states, when presenting Anakin to the Council, that "Had he been born in the Republic, we would have identified him early, and he would have become Jedi, no doubt...he has the way." That's not stating there was a choice there, or that there were other options. They usually took new younglings in as infants. They never had a choice in the matter.

Without the EU, we're short on full details, but there's certainly no evidence of non-Jedi force users, and the Jedi, by canon, grabbed all the kids born in the Republic who showed signs of being able to touch the Force.

It may be reading between the lines a bit, but it's not a particularly deep dive.

By George Lucas's accounts the light side IS the balance, the dark side is unnatural. They definitely seem to be going off script and making it a Yin and Yang thing with the new canon though as evidenced by the mural of the first Jedi, and yet another font of the dark side where Jedi made their homes.

There's no evidence of Jedi attacking Sith just for being Sith. Most likely the historical conflicts between the Jedi and Sith were the Sith starting a war of conquest as they tend to do and the Jedi coming to stop them. The Sith also habitually fought each other for more power, and with the creation of the Rule of Two they pretty much committed genocide on themselves.

The younglings parents are given the choice, and the Jedi were so respected it was almost always a yes. Dooku was allowed to freely leave the order, in a new canon comic Anakin was contemplating leaving the order and Obi-Wan as going to join him to continue his teaching if he did.

There's also a new canon comic in which Yoda comes to a planet with tribes of warring force users, after doing what he can to bring peace to them he leaves them. No genocide at all.

[Elim Garak]

I know the retcon explanations that have been invented to justify it.

When it was written, it was written because George Lucas didn't know that "parsec" was a unit of distance, not time. Everything else is a retcon added to try and make it less egregiously stupid in retrospect.

You are factually wrong. Originally it was mentioned as "standard units of time". In the movie it's changed to parsecs. And I wouldn't call something a retrospect if it happened just a month later after the movie release.

[Heathy]

Not sure where this new star wars is headed but I think there were better stories, recently rewatched this video just reminds me that we'll probably not see star wars like that again, or that its never going to end because its setup to never end. love a good story, but i guess i can take some sort of solace in knowing it could have ended.

imo the force is the antagonist and so long as ppl can feel it, there will always be jedi, who become or train sith. so there will always be conflict in that universe, forever.

the force seeks endless balance, eradication of all dark side users and look at the cluster fucks it causes. billions of deaths for anakin's prophecy. the force is bad, ppl who use it contribute to the problem in one way or another.

[BloodyAngel12]

[Totemslap]

Disagree. The Emperor had no real backstory before the prequels as well. And I totally bought the moment, especially because of the talk of hubris earlier on which had rang true because we've seen many times to be the downfall of people in the other movies.

I just had a lively discussion with my dad who took (to an extent) the side of people disappointed in Luke's and Snoke's deaths, and I came away thinking the "passing of the torch" theme of this movie was even more solid and well though-through. Every single plotline works towards this theme, it is kind of incredible. I firmly believe history will be kind on this movie.

I firmly believe history will be kind on this movie.

Whatever you say, buddy. Whatever you fucking say.

[Selastan]

If that's your measure of "stupid writing", you really don't have any business claiming that the Star Wars IP represents good writing. The original trilogy was chock full of stupid stuff like "kessel run in 12 parsecs".

According to the script, that was supposed to be Han showing a bit of stupidity in his attempt to brag up his ship. It was intended to be an incorrect statement.

[Skulltaker]

Whatever you say, buddy. Whatever you fucking say.

Jesus it keeps dropping...

[Sunseeker]

Not sure where this new star wars is headed but I think there were better stories, recently rewatched this video just reminds me that we'll probably not see star wars like that again,.

You mean a half-written story with no conclusion because Chris Avelone gets bored easily and can't write a complete story to save his life?

Kotor2 had great characters. But frankly the story was terrible and had no idea where it was going. Aside from being a lot more grey than Star Wars typically is KOTOR2's success was largely in it's memorable characters who were flawed and through character choices could rise above their faults or fall down to them. The actual story of the Exile...was not that great.

This is very different from KOTOR 1's success which succeeded on a very traditional Star Wars story with very traditional Star Wars characters. The characters of KOTOR1 are much less memorable than the characters of KOTOR2 in large part because they are very stereotypical Star Wars characters. The Strong Woman. The Handsome Pilot. The Kid. The Wookie (lets face it's not even really a character, but Star Wars needs a wookie). The Grumpy/Witty/Snarky Old Master. The Angry Padawan. And of course, The Mary Sue. These aren't great characters. But the story around them was very "Star Wars".

Which is pretty much what we got with TFA. A straight-up Star Wars story. No frills, to pretty bow, we, the collective fans wanted a "Star Wars movie" and we got it.

Like Kotor2, TLJ diverged from the typical Star Wars formula. For better or worse? I dunno, it's a middle movie. Empire Strikes Back is one of the least popular of the original trilogy, like most middle movies it's designed to be the middle of the story. The middle of the story is never the most terribly interesting part. It's the culmination of the events before it, but not their climax, nor their conclusion. It's attempting to set the stage for the next entry, for better or worse, it did that.

[Katchii]

It was very much built in secret. The Rebels only find out about the Death Star in Rogue One because the designer gets a message out thanks to a defecting pilot. The entire population of Geonosis was eradicated after the construction of the Death Star was moved elsewhere to maintain its secrecy.

Which means they found out about it. I'll admit, they may have found out pretty late into the game, but they did find out.

[Ivanstone]

Empire Strikes Back is one of the least popular of the original trilogy, like most middle movies it's designed to be the middle of the story.

Um, really? Using the anecdotal evidence of everyone I know, everyone not only thinks Empire is the best Star Wars movie, its the standard by which all other mid-trilogy movies are weighed against.

[Heathy]

You mean a half-written story with no conclusion because Chris Avelone gets bored easily and can't write a complete story to save his life?

snip

Its my favourite take on star wars, it answered questions that were vague and had some reasonable insight, it did have an ending, it really depends what you want from starwars, personally, I like a good story, kotor 2 ending with the idea that the conflict would never end, unless ppl choose to give up the force, or everyone is made to no longer hear it. it never made sense to me this two tone universe.

personally, i like a story with an end, star wars can't have an end, so long as the force influences ppls decisions so will there be good and bad jedi. it is an endless recurrence. whether the master becomes evil or the student, its guaranteed to keep happening.

the story of the exile was that they were just able to use the force as they desired without playing into the whim of the force itself, while also they were able to give up the force, survive and not become weaker because of it. both kreia and the exile are extremely unique to starwars. ofc, the true ending was that there never was a true synthesis between the dark and light, while they also didn't create a massive force echo either. the story was that kreias teaching were pretty much lost whatever the exile learned was lost and the cycle just repeated.

kotor 2 had a good story with both the main characters being females. kriea female, the exile (meetra surik) female. this was never an issue for me what gender they were, they were still unique takes on star wars as a whole. the female roles in LTJ weren't as interesting as they have been. compare the exile and her backstory to rey, compare kreia to luke, I found more written depth in kotor 2 than i have in the stories since then. pretty sure kotor 2 was what inspired interest in star wars as a whole, i thought the original movies were cool but they never really explained much about the universe.

[Endus]

By George Lucas's accounts the light side IS the balance, the dark side is unnatural. They definitely seem to be going off script and making it a Yin and Yang thing with the new canon though as evidenced by the mural of the first Jedi, and yet another font of the dark side where Jedi made their homes.

One side winning and exterminating the other isn't "balance". Avoiding darker emotions out of, ironically, darker emotions of fear and hatred towards them is not "balance", it's hypocrisy.

I know Lucas may have wanted things to be that way, but Lucas is a terrible writer and needs someone fixing whatever he does. Which is why Episode 5, ESB, is usually seen as the best of the original trilogy.

There's no evidence of Jedi attacking Sith just for being Sith. Most likely the historical conflicts between the Jedi and Sith were the Sith starting a war of conquest as they tend to do and the Jedi coming to stop them. The Sith also habitually fought each other for more power, and with the creation of the Rule of Two they pretty much committed genocide on themselves.

Pretty sure things like attacking Palpatine shows the first to be untrue. As for the second, they're pretty clear that the Sith Empire has been dead for a thousand years. There's been no "wars of conquest" in that time frame. Some of this is EU stuff that's non-canon now, but Palpatine states in the films that the Republic has stood for 1000 years.

The "rule of two" largely exists because of this campaign of genocide. They were wiped out 1000 years back, and they came up with it to keep themselves under the radar so that they could act in secret, not in force. It's also EU stuff, so far as I know.

The younglings parents are given the choice, and the Jedi were so respected it was almost always a yes.

Not presented that way in the films, really. The implication is otherwise, and they don't dig into details to clarify.

Dooku was allowed to freely leave the order, in a new canon comic Anakin was contemplating leaving the order and Obi-Wan as going to join him to continue his teaching if he did.

There's also a new canon comic in which Yoda comes to a planet with tribes of warring force users, after doing what he can to bring peace to them he leaves them. No genocide at all.

Dooku was also killed the moment they realized he was breaking Jedi edicts and in touch with the Dark Side.

New canon comics I see as attempts to fix this long-time issue in Star Wars lore. As presented in the films, the Jedi are horrible. Maybe not as bad as the Sith, but generally not a force for "good". And the prophecy around Anakin generally supports that; he brought balance to the force, by ending the Jedi and the Sith, leaving only Luke, who's reforming the system as of Ep 8.

And I mean, this is without digging into overtly evil behaviours by Jedi, like their flippant use of what is essentially mind-rape. Seriously, that "these are not the droids you're looking for" stuff is pretty universally presented as the power of horrible villains, in pretty much any other context. That's The Purple Man's entire power set, in Jessica Jones, for instance. And it's not like they only resort to it when necessary; they use it to cut corners and make their lives easier.