[Movie] Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

[PhaelixWW]

I'd be really surprised if TLJ makes up the last 100 million while it's in theaters. It made about 6M the last week, and that number's only going downward.

Just wanted to point out that it made 6m last week domestically, not worldwide.

[Deleted]

The dreadnaught not is a shit at ship-to-ship combat. Its only going to hit slow nonmoving targets

Say who? In the movie It called a Fleet-killer and aim its gun at the fleet.....

[eschatological]

Again, here's my weekly reminder that this isn't GenOT, and crying "SJW!" at every turn isn't allowed in this subforum. If you're going to discuss the film, discuss the film. Not other users and your perceptions of them.

[Intuitive]

Again, here's my weekly reminder that this isn't GenOT, and crying "SJW!" at every turn isn't allowed in this subforum. If you're going to discuss the film, discuss the film. Not other users and your perceptions of them.

Isn't it funny how pro-SJWs can make ad hominem attacks and it's just considered as part of the discussion, but anyone else does and it's infraction or threatened with a ban. You would do well to know who you are threatening before actually threatening them.

[Endus]

Say who? In the movie It called a Fleet-killer and aim its gun at the fleet.....

You've got to remember that Star Wars battles are meant to be like WWII/WWII-era battles, and fleet battles are comparable to naval battles. A dreadnaught class vessel is big, heavy, and has massive guns. A cruiser, comparatively, is much smaller, faster, while still packing a reasonable punch. Cruisers are roughly the "middleweights", below battleships and above destroyers/frigates.

A Dreadnaught is a fleet-killer because, in a big fleet battle, it can take a LOT of punishment, and dish out even more. But this requires that you have that battle, that the enemy stays within effective range of your guns.

In the film, they didn't. They fled. And because cruisers are faster than dreadnaughts, they can get out of that range and stay out of it, as long as the fuel lasts. That was sort of the entire point of the chase scene, in the first place; the Resistance ships were able to stay far enough ahead of the First Order fleet that their guns weren't effective.

Now, you might argue that in a hard sci-fi setting where physics makes the rules, this doesn't make sense, and modern naval fleets carry guns that can shoot over the horizon, and so on. But that doesn't really apply to Star Wars. It's not hard sci-fi, and even if the rules seem silly, they're still the setting's rules.

If you try and do a fleet-on-fleet battle and the enemy has a dreadnaught, you're probably all gonna die. If you see the dreadnaught and run, the dreadnaught is slow and sluggish, and can't keep pace. Unless you're trying to stay JUST out of reach, to conserve fuel and keep them chasing you, which was the plan, if you recall.

[Ragedaug]

You've got to remember that Star Wars battles are meant to be like WWII/WWII-era battles, and fleet battles are comparable to naval battles. A dreadnaught class vessel is big, heavy, and has massive guns. A cruiser, comparatively, is much smaller, faster, while still packing a reasonable punch. Cruisers are roughly the "middleweights", below battleships and above destroyers/frigates.

A Dreadnaught is a fleet-killer because, in a big fleet battle, it can take a LOT of punishment, and dish out even more. But this requires that you have that battle, that the enemy stays within effective range of your guns.

In the film, they didn't. They fled. And because cruisers are faster than dreadnaughts, they can get out of that range and stay out of it, as long as the fuel lasts. That was sort of the entire point of the chase scene, in the first place; the Resistance ships were able to stay far enough ahead of the First Order fleet that their guns weren't effective.

Now, you might argue that in a hard sci-fi setting where physics makes the rules, this doesn't make sense, and modern naval fleets carry guns that can shoot over the horizon, and so on. But that doesn't really apply to Star Wars. It's not hard sci-fi, and even if the rules seem silly, they're still the setting's rules.

If you try and do a fleet-on-fleet battle and the enemy has a dreadnaught, you're probably all gonna die. If you see the dreadnaught and run, the dreadnaught is slow and sluggish, and can't keep pace. Unless you're trying to stay JUST out of reach, to conserve fuel and keep them chasing you, which was the plan, if you recall.

This is ridiculous that you are still holding on to this.

1) Even current U.S. Navy Cruiser class ships, while smaller than the bigger ships still isn't agile enough to avoid a bombardment gun that has it's range.

2) In Star Wars, "Cruiser" is used for ships ranging from the Tantive IV to the Capital Ships/Command ships used in Ep. VI. So there's nothing natively smaller & faster about a cruiser.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cruiser
Tantive IV - aka Alderaan Cruiser - 150 meters in length
MC80 - Mon Calamari Star Cruiser 1200 meters in length
Then you have General Leia's cruiser, which dwarfs those.
MC85 - The Raddus - - Heavy Cruiser Class - Which is over 2 Miles in length.

3) Every Dreadnought is not the same.
The Fulminatrix was a Mandator IV-class Siege Dreadnought, which was 5 miles long and had Orbital Bombardment Cannons
The Supremacy was a Mega-class Star Dreadnought that was 37 miles wide and had no Orbital Bombardment Cannons

4) We don't know how fast the Mandator class dreadnoughts are. For all we know they can pace an MC85 heavy cruiser.

5) The Orbital Guns are significantly more powerful than standard turbo lasers and would have blown through the shields, even if it couldn't keep up with the Raddus.

6) The Resurgent-class Star Destroyers that were escorting the Supremacy are smaller than the Raddus. So size alone doesn't determine speed.


Almost forgot...

7) If Poe doesn't take out the Fulminatrix prior to the Resistance jumping to light speed, then when the First Order shows up with the Supremacy AND the Fuminatrix, they don't bother sending Kylo out. The Fulminatrix just levels it's guns on the Raddus, and takes them out well before they even get to the point of "out ranging" the First Order.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Isn't it funny how pro-SJWs can make ad hominem attacks and it's just considered as part of the discussion, but anyone else does and it's infraction or threatened with a ban. You would do well to know who you are threatening before actually threatening them.

are you saying the mod's shouldn't be mods because your a big deal?

[Kaleredar]

Just wanted to point out that it made 6m last week domestically, not worldwide.

Additionally I don't really know what people are going on about this movie being a "flop." It was the highest grossing film of 2017 domestically.

- - - Updated - - -

This is ridiculous that you are still holding on to this.

1a) Even current U.S. Navy Cruiser class ships, while smaller than the bigger ships still isn't agile enough to avoid a bombardment gun that has it's range.
1b) In Star Wars, "Cruiser" is used for ships ranging from the Tantive IV to the Capital Ships/Command ships used in Ep. VI. So there's nothing natively smaller & faster about a cruiser.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cruiser
Tantive IV - aka Alderaan Cruiser - 150 meters in length
MC80 - Mon Calamari Star Cruiser 1200 meters in length
Then you have General Leia's cruiser, which dwarfs those.
MC85 - The Raddus - - Heavy Cruiser Class - Which is over 2 Miles in length.

2a) Every Dreadnought is not the same.
The Fulminatrix was a Mandator IV-class Siege Dreadnought, which was 5 miles long and had Orbital Bombardment Cannons
The Supremacy was a Mega-class Star Dreadnought that was 37 miles wide and had no Orbital Bombardment Cannons

2b) We don't know how fast the Mandator class dreadnoughts are. For all we know they can pace an MC85 heavy cruiser.
2c) The Orbital Guns are significantly more powerful than standard turbo lasers and would have blown through the shields, even if it couldn't keep up with the Raddus.
2d) The Resurgent-class Star Destroyers that were escorting the Supremacy are smaller than the Raddus. So size alone doesn't determine speed.


Almost forgot...

3) If Poe doesn't take out the Fulminatrix prior to the Resistance jumping to light speed, then when the First Order shows up with the Supremacy AND the Fuminatrix, they don't bother sending Kylo out. The Fulminatrix just levels it's guns on the Raddus, and takes them out well before they even get to the point of "out ranging" the First Order.

We're talking about a fantasy space universe where people talk with ghosts, use laser swords and push each other around with wizard magic.

Consistency between vehicles has never been anything beyond "rule of cool" and "does it fit the story" in Star Wars.

[Ragedaug]

Additionally I don't really know what people are going on about this movie being a "flop." It was the highest grossing film of 2017 domestically.

They are judging it against the other 7 Star Wars movies. So in those terms it is the weakest. I tend to think "flop" is wrong anyway you parse it, but folks like to be dramatic.

*edit* I take that back, I substantially under-estimated how poorly AOTC and ROTS did at the theaters, compared to the previous SW movies. TLJ already has more ticket sales than either Ep 2 or 3...though I would submit that's due to TLJ having a much better lead in (Force Awakens vs Phantom Menace). After Phantom Menace you saw ticket sales drop by 60% (give or take) for the next two movies. I tend to think Episode 9's opening weekend will be the gauge of how well Ep 8 was received. It's still two years out, so we have some waiting to do, but with emotions back to normal levels, it will be interesting to see if there's a sharp decline in opening weekend sales or if it hangs right up there with 7 & 8.

We're talking about a fantasy space universe where people talk with ghosts, use laser swords and push each other around with wizard magic.

Consistency between vehicles has never been anything beyond "rule of cool" and "does it fit the story" in Star Wars.

While I would agree with you in principle, Endus is arguing based on real world comparisons, using World War II era vehicles and armaments as his reference.

If you want to say, "throw out all real world rules", I'm OK with that. Though I still haven't seen anything in the movie to convince me that the Fulminatrix, with it's orbital guns, wouldn't have blown the Raddus out of space the moment they reverted from Light Speed. Just based on what we see in the movie and the power of the orbital guns and the proximity they would have been to the Raddus at the moment they dropped out of hyperspace, the Raddus wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes if Poe hadn't taken out that dreadnought prior to the jump.

[Endus]

This is ridiculous that you are still holding on to this.

1) Even current U.S. Navy Cruiser class ships, while smaller than the bigger ships still isn't agile enough to avoid a bombardment gun that has it's range.

And? When they were fleeing, they were out of effective range. This was established.

2) In Star Wars, "Cruiser" is used for ships ranging from the Tantive IV to the Capital Ships/Command ships used in Ep. VI. So there's nothing natively smaller & faster about a cruiser.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cruiser
Tantive IV - aka Alderaan Cruiser - 150 meters in length
MC80 - Mon Calamari Star Cruiser 1200 meters in length
Then you have General Leia's cruiser, which dwarfs those.
MC85 - The Raddus - - Heavy Cruiser Class - Which is over 2 Miles in length.

And? You act like this proves anything, but it doesn't. There's all kinds of cruisers.

You also immediately follow with the admission that the Dreadnaught was way bigger.

3) Every Dreadnought is not the same.
The Fulminatrix was a Mandator IV-class Siege Dreadnought, which was 5 miles long and had Orbital Bombardment Cannons
The Supremacy was a Mega-class Star Dreadnought that was 37 miles wide and had no Orbital Bombardment Cannons

Again, not relevant. Ship classes are relatively broad and there are often overlaps at the extreme ends, when comparing between navies.

4) We don't know how fast the Mandator class dreadnoughts are. For all we know they can pace an MC85 heavy cruiser.

In basically every single other instance in Star Wars, smaller ships are faster. This is why ships like fighters and the Falcon can outpace capital ships with ease.

You don't get to handwave context because it doesn't help you argue there's an error.

5) The Orbital Guns are significantly more powerful than standard turbo lasers and would have blown through the shields, even if it couldn't keep up with the Raddus.

You're literally making that up. If they stood there, in range, sure. There's no indication they would have, and Leia certainly didn't seem to think the dreadnaught was that potent a threat if they ran. Thanks, but I'll take in-universe military expertise over the headcanon of some film viewer.

6) The Resurgent-class Star Destroyers that were escorting the Supremacy are smaller than the Raddus. So size alone doesn't determine speed.

Did you miss the part of the film where they tell the First Order ships to stay with the Supremacy? Because that's totally in there.

Almost forgot...

7) If Poe doesn't take out the Fulminatrix prior to the Resistance jumping to light speed, then when the First Order shows up with the Supremacy AND the Fuminatrix, they don't bother sending Kylo out. The Fulminatrix just levels it's guns on the Raddus, and takes them out well before they even get to the point of "out ranging" the First Order.

Again, you're literally making shit up here, and there's absolutely no reason to think you're in any way correct, particularly when the military experts in the actual film setting concretely disagree with your analysis.

[Torto]

Additionally I don't really know what people are going on about this movie being a "flop." It was the highest grossing film of 2017 domestically.

It made money, no one disputes that. But....

film will end up with around 34% less domestic and approximately 36% less worldwide than The Force Awakens.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#7d7ad4403432

So, if the film was a raging success and the only people hating on it are a few Internet nerds, why wasn't it as successful as TFA?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It made money, no one disputes that. But....



https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#7d7ad4403432

So, if the film was a raging success and the only people hating on it are a few Internet nerds, why wasn't it as successful as TFA?

TFA was the first starwars movie in years? is it really any surprise that a fresh start to starwars is gonna out sell what comes after?

[Torto]

TFA was the first starwars movie in years? is it really any surprise that a fresh start to starwars is gonna out sell what comes after?

No, but a $700 Million revenue drop? You won't convince anyone that Disney shareholders are happy with those figures.

[Ragedaug]

And? When they were fleeing, they were out of effective range. This was established.

1) It was established that they moved out of range because they were faster. They did not start out "out of range"
2) They were out of range of Turbo Lasers, not out of range of an orbital gun.
3) 2 doesn't matter because of 1. Because they were in range when the FO dropped out of hyperspace, the orbital guns would have just shot and blown them up...no chase, no moving out of range, no nothing except dead Resistance.

And? You act like this proves anything, but it doesn't. There's all kinds of cruisers.

You also immediately follow with the admission that the Dreadnaught was way bigger.

Whaaat? You are defeating my argument by saying my argument is right? I'm guessing you are a little tired. You are the one who is saying "cruiser means x and dreadnought means y". I am the one saying , there are all kinds of cruisers and dreadnoughts, so you can't establish a single rule of "all cruisers go this speed and all dreadnoughts go another speed". As I said (before you said), there's all kinds of cruisers....in fact, that was my entire point.

Again, not relevant. Ship classes are relatively broad and there are often overlaps at the extreme ends, when comparing between navies.

Again, you are making my point, which defeats your earlier point... sometimes I wonder if it's two different people posting on your account. I don't get it. Either way, congrats, you agree with me that you can't say "all cruisers go this speed and all dreadnoughts go another speed".

In basically every single other instance in Star Wars, smaller ships are faster. This is why ships like fighters and the Falcon can outpace capital ships with ease.

You don't get to handwave context because it doesn't help you argue there's an error.

The Falcon is only faster because it is heavily upgraded. Perhaps you haven't heard, but it's the ship that made the Kessle Run in uder 12 parsecs. Why don't you take a moment to watch Episode IV again...just like the first few minutes. You'll see a capital ship run down a cruiser. Yep, the giant star destroyer caught up to the Corellian corvette.

You're literally making that up. If they stood there, in range, sure. There's no indication they would have, and Leia certainly didn't seem to think the dreadnaught was that potent a threat if they ran. Thanks, but I'll take in-universe military expertise over the headcanon of some film viewer.

I'm literally not making that up. There's a reason you use orbital guns for bombardment, and it's because Turbo Lasers lose potency in atmosphere. Ships with standard turbo lasers have to enter at least through the outer edge of the atmosphere of a planet for full effectiveness. The whole point of having two specialized giant guns is because they are significantly more powerful. At this point you are grasping at straws trying to say the orbital guns would not have been effective where the turbo lasers weren't. Even from the movie's take, they were just outside the range of the turbo lasers, so it's not a big stretch to understand that more powerful weapons would still have been effective.

Did you miss the part of the film where they tell the First Order ships to stay with the Supremacy? Because that's totally in there.

They were talking to the fighters...I'm face palming now Endus. Now you are just making stuff up to try to win internet points. There were a dozen Star Destroyers there, all nearly the size (but just smaller) than the Raddus. If they could catch the Raddus, they would have and then ventilated it.

Again, you're literally making shit up here, and there's absolutely no reason to think you're in any way correct, particularly when the military experts in the actual film setting concretely disagree with your analysis.

It's like you didn't watch the movie... OK, so let me lay it out for you.

- The Fulminatrix was getting ready to shoot the Raddus. Like, they were giving the orders to shoot it just as the bombs were being dropped to destroy the Fulminatrix.
- When the FO drops out of hyperspace after tracking the Resistance. they were "in range" of the Raddus. The Raddus didn't get out of range until after it started "running".
- If the Fulminatrix isn't blown up, it will also arrive with the FO fleet, and will also be "in range" of the Raddus, so then when drop out of hyperspace, they will finish the command to shoot it.

The Fulminatrix dropping out of hyperspace and shooting would basically be like Captain Hammer finishing his note after thawing from Dr. Horrible's freeze ray.

- - - Updated - - -

TFA was the first starwars movie in years? is it really any surprise that a fresh start to starwars is gonna out sell what comes after?

To me, the difference can be seen in comparing opening weekend revenue versus the revenue that follows. TLJ was very close to TFA revenue during the opening weekend. By the first Monday, it stopped following TFA's ticket sales, and got much closer to Rogue One's ticket sales.

IMO, the opening weekend sales were indicative of the audience's desire to watch the sequel after watching TFA. The drop in sales after opening weekend seem to be in line with the number or people deciding they didn't need to go back and watch it a 2nd/3rd/4th time, etc.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

1)

To me, the difference can be seen in comparing opening weekend revenue versus the revenue that follows. TLJ was very close to TFA revenue during the opening weekend. By the first Monday, it stopped following TFA's ticket sales, and got much closer to Rogue One's ticket sales.

IMO, the opening weekend sales were indicative of the audience's desire to watch the sequel after watching TFA. The drop in sales after opening weekend seem to be in line with the number or people deciding they didn't need to go back and watch it a 2nd/3rd/4th time, etc.

i cant speak for that, i know i didn't go opening weekend even though im a huge fan and i never go see movies more once in theaters.

[PACOX]

This is ridiculous that you are still holding on to this.

1) Even current U.S. Navy Cruiser class ships, while smaller than the bigger ships still isn't agile enough to avoid a bombardment gun that has it's range.

2) In Star Wars, "Cruiser" is used for ships ranging from the Tantive IV to the Capital Ships/Command ships used in Ep. VI. So there's nothing natively smaller & faster about a cruiser.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cruiser
Tantive IV - aka Alderaan Cruiser - 150 meters in length
MC80 - Mon Calamari Star Cruiser 1200 meters in length
Then you have General Leia's cruiser, which dwarfs those.
MC85 - The Raddus - - Heavy Cruiser Class - Which is over 2 Miles in length.

3) Every Dreadnought is not the same.
The Fulminatrix was a Mandator IV-class Siege Dreadnought, which was 5 miles long and had Orbital Bombardment Cannons
The Supremacy was a Mega-class Star Dreadnought that was 37 miles wide and had no Orbital Bombardment Cannons

4) We don't know how fast the Mandator class dreadnoughts are. For all we know they can pace an MC85 heavy cruiser.

5) The Orbital Guns are significantly more powerful than standard turbo lasers and would have blown through the shields, even if it couldn't keep up with the Raddus.

6) The Resurgent-class Star Destroyers that were escorting the Supremacy are smaller than the Raddus. So size alone doesn't determine speed.


Almost forgot...

7) If Poe doesn't take out the Fulminatrix prior to the Resistance jumping to light speed, then when the First Order shows up with the Supremacy AND the Fuminatrix, they don't bother sending Kylo out. The Fulminatrix just levels it's guns on the Raddus, and takes them out well before they even get to the point of "out ranging" the First Order.

If you're going to bother linking stuff from wikipedia then why gloss over the actual entry for the Mandator and Fulminatrix? The class of ship is called a siege ship. It only offensive capabilities is its two "orbital autocannons", the Resistance was able to destroy it because it took a day and a half (figure of speech) to target the Resistance cruiser, its real life counterpart is a bombardment ship.

This Mandator class is trash at ship-to-ship combat. Why keep trying to argue something that its not?

[Maneo]

When I left the movie, I liked it fine. That being said however the more I thought on it the more I grew to dislike it.

Fin a character I really liked in Force Awakens, was used in a throw away plot line of no consequence w/this Rose character who I couldn't stand. I thought Poe was handled horribly as well..

It had some scenes I really enjoyed but as of right now I think it is one of my least favorite Star Wars Movie

Empire Strikes Back > Rogue One >Star Wars > Force Awakens > Return of the Jedi > Revenge of the Sith > Last Jedi = Attack of the Clones > Phantom Menace.

The only reason it got as high as it did is it did have some great scenes ..

[Intuitive]

are you saying the mod's shouldn't be mods because your a big deal?

It's pretty obvious what I was saying, sorry you had such trouble understanding it. Mods should be mods, but fairly and justly, not showing selective favouritism.

[tyrlaan]

In reality, NOTHING is objectively true because there is always a subject experiencing an event. So your attempted deflection was cute but worthless.

You can't handle reality so you project your insecurities onto others. I bet when growing up, the phrase "well your opinion is invalid" was frequently said to you.

You're spin game is so ridiculous that you probably got dizzy writing this post.

Good work on trying to divine what my childhood was like though. Nothing else here is deserving a response because nothing else here has any relevant substance to it.

Isn't it funny how pro-SJWs can make ad hominem attacks and it's just considered as part of the discussion, but anyone else does and it's infraction or threatened with a ban. You would do well to know who you are threatening before actually threatening them.

The threatening someone over allegedly threatening you is pretty, um, interesting.

It's pretty obvious what I was saying, sorry you had such trouble understanding it. Mods should be mods, but fairly and justly, not showing selective favouritism.

No, the problem is is that you seem to be having trouble discerning appropriate behavior when its in line with your personal beliefs.


On topic, it would be amazeballs if you actually wanted to talk about the content of the movie instead of invoking archaic anti-SJW nonsense to bash it. There are plenty of valid criticisms to lob at the film without needing to lean on political rhetoric to do it. If that's all you want to do, I'd imagine the conversation will continue to go poorly for you.

[Nefarious Tea]

You sir, have a brain issue. In the OT we knew NOTHING about the emperor or why he had power. All we needed to know was hw was in charge and was sith. Same with snoke. Fleshing out his story is most assuredly not required for the Rey vs Ren narrative they are telling with this trilogy.

Yes, call me retarded. Let the hate flow through you. Do it again. See what it does for your ability to continue posting here.

I'm well aware that we got no explanation for Palpatine, and we didn't need one in the OT. I said that in literally the second sentence of the post you quoted. Did you even read it? George Lucas drew very heavily from mythology to create the Star Wars trilogy, and powerful evil villain trope needs no explanation by itself. I know and understand this, dare I say, better than you ever will.

But Episodes VII and VIII aren't new movies. As often panned as the prequels were, Lucas knew he had to explain how Palpatine became Emperor. And among the few things that are objectively good about the prequels, the plot thread of Palpatine's rise to power is certainly among them.

Now, take a thought experiment with me. Imagine if Episodes VII and VIII had been made first. By themselves the archetype of Snoke's character is fine: he's bad, in charge, he's strong, he's betrayed by his underling, and he dies. Character arc complete. Snoke works, within Episodes VII and VIII by themselves. That's not what I'm arguing is wrong in the slightest (unlike what you seem to think). Now, imagine that episodes IV, V, and VI were the prequel trilogy instead. Snoke still isn't explained. Moviegoers, critics, and fans would all be left with the question of: how did that crazy, battle-scarred old man come into power? Where did he come from?

My problem with Snoke as a character isn't how he fits into episodes VII and VIII. My problem with Snoke as a character is that - from what we know JUST from Episodes IV, V, VI, and the Rebels TV show - Snoke doesn't fit into the greater narrative of Star Wars as a whole. He's too old and too powerful to NOT have existed while Palpatine was still Emperor. You can literally see in Episode VIII that his hair is greying. He's an old man, of whatever species he is. As an archetype, Snoke is fine. As a character within Star Wars, Episodes VII and VIII are set simply too close to the new trilogy for Snoke to exist as he does. If the two new movies had been set fifty or sixty years ahead, and Ben Solo was Han and Leia's grandson, the time gap would be enough for Snoke to exist. But Leia as a character is literally only 52 years old in this film.

The problems with Snoke are thus:

-Snoke is old. Too old. Were he a human, he'd be in his 70's to 80's. He's basically old enough to have lived through the Clone Wars. But, he's also much larger than a human, and as biology here on earth shows, larger animals tend to live longer. Blue whales, if certain countries would stop whaling, are estimated to live, on average, past the century mark. Humans, for comparison, get around 65-68 years globally. As Snoke's species is considerably larger than humans, logically his species also lives even longer. Therefore, he almost certainly was alive before the Jedi Purge. How did he survive it if he was a Jedi? If he wasn't, how did he survive for decades in the face of Palpatine's Inquisitors, or even Darth Vader, especially given how strong in the Force he is.

-He's extremely strong in the Force. As strong as Rey and Ben Solo are supposed to be, he tosses them around like ragdolls. This makes him a considerable threat to the New Republic, and Luke's nascent Jedi order. Even without him being the head of the First Order, he's a dangerous wild card. Why didn't the Republic or Luke do anything about him?

-Luke straight up tells us he knew about Snoke for years. Are we expected to believe Luke knew a powerful and evil Force user was out there and just decided to... ignore him? Are we expected to not think Luke is an idiot for training new Jedi while he knows someone who would want to actively corrupt his pupils is out and about?

TL;DR: My problem with Snoke is NOT that he doesn't fit in the narrative of the [I]new[i] movies. My problem with Snoke is that he doesn't fit in the narrative of Star Wars as a whole. There isn't enough of a time gap between Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens for Snoke to exist as a character.

- - - Updated - - -

If you're going to bother linking stuff from wikipedia then why gloss over the actual entry for the Mandator and Fulminatrix? The class of ship is called a siege ship. It only offensive capabilities is its two "orbital autocannons", the Resistance was able to destroy it because it took a day and a half (figure of speech) to target the Resistance cruiser, its real life counterpart is a bombardment ship.

This Mandator class is trash at ship-to-ship combat. Why keep trying to argue something that its not?

I think, in an extremely oblique way, what the person you quoted is trying to argue is that, a) capital ships generally have the manoeuverability of a brick, and b) as a ship designed for sieges, it would have a considerably longer effective range of its cannons. Therefore, the Raddus would have been screwed five minutes into the chase scene had the dreadnought not been destroyed at the beginning of the film.