Raider.IO Development Updates - Raids and Mythic Plus

[Vynestra]

Anyone who actually likes raider.io is someone who already has a high score, otherwise it sucks for everyone else.

[Keren]

would make more sense if the score is based on your top 6 dungeons or so...

[Cracked]

Every key on +17 in time is a decent experience. Your second argument is a classic straw man since

1) I doubt there is somebody with just fe +20 keys and nothing else
2) Even if there are such people, I'm fairly certain they don't have issues finding groups

If I wasn't in that situation, you would maybe have a point. So let's run this down

To get a generally accepted score of 2.2k:
1) 13 dungeons, currently score is calculated as (level + time/intime) * 10. 2200/13 = 169.23, so to keep it with minimum levels, you need to run every dungeon on 17, either in time or max couple 10s of seconds over time.
2) To get into most groups of 17, people will require good score, unless they are friends or your gear is highly above the curve from say mythic antorus
3) So you have to run your own key mostly. This will result in getting duplicate dungeons more often than not, which you have no option but to complete IF you wanna roll the dice again, huge timesink.
4) Some dungeons are highly unpopular, so it's not rare that you could spend days looking for a good +17-18 BRH group.
5) If you want to skip a dungeon and still get to 2.2k score, you now need to run all dungeons on 18 +2 chests or all dungeons on +19 chill mode. Those are pretty high levels to run casually back to back, many groups will fail (even full groups of "2.2k rated") certain dungeons under certain affix combos, etc.

Yes, it's how people use the tool, but the tool certainly doesn't make it any harder to use it wrong. Refer to the score calculation formula that I proposed a couple pages back, especially @Aspir - why isn't the formula more sensible, but one that has so many underlying problems?

----

And just to mention the position I'm coming from, I have exactly 1004 M+ dungeons completed in time across my characters, according to WoWProgress, and not to sound cocky, but I'd say that qualifies for experience, despite having around ~158 score rn. My highest score in previous seasons was over 2.2k DESPITE 2 dungeons not even existing back then. Why the disparity??

Edit: It actually seems that there is *some* nonlinearity for higher levels, but it's not enough.

[Aspir]

If I wasn't in that situation, you would maybe have a point. So let's run this down

To get a generally accepted score of 2.2k:
1) 13 dungeons, currently score is calculated as (level + time/intime) * 10. 2200/13 = 169.23, so to keep it with minimum levels, you need to run every dungeon on 17, either in time or max couple 10s of seconds over time.
2) To get into most groups of 17, people will require good score, unless they are friends or your gear is highly above the curve from say mythic antorus
3) So you have to run your own key mostly. This will result in getting duplicate dungeons more often than not, which you have no option but to complete IF you wanna roll the dice again, huge timesink.
4) Some dungeons are highly unpopular, so it's not rare that you could spend days looking for a good +17-18 BRH group.
5) If you want to skip a dungeon and still get to 2.2k score, you now need to run all dungeons on 18 +2 chests or all dungeons on +19 chill mode. Those are pretty high levels to run casually back to back, many groups will fail (even full groups of "2.2k rated") certain dungeons under certain affix combos, etc.

Yes, it's how people use the tool, but the tool certainly doesn't make it any harder to use it wrong. Refer to the score calculation formula that I proposed a couple pages back, especially @Aspir - why isn't the formula more sensible, but one that has so many underlying problems?

----

And just to mention the position I'm coming from, I have exactly 1004 M+ dungeons completed in time across my characters, according to WoWProgress, and not to sound cocky, but I'd say that qualifies for experience, despite having around ~158 score rn. My highest score in previous seasons was over 2.2k DESPITE 2 dungeons not even existing back then. Why the disparity??

Edit: It actually seems that there is *some* nonlinearity for higher levels, but it's not enough.

Heyas,

So here are some ways you can get a 2200 score (runs completed exactly in time to keep this simple):

13 +15s = 2094 (close - but not 2200)
13 +16s = 2303

Let's say you want to never run SEAT or COEN:

11 +18s = 2358
9 +20s = 2334

Let's say you're Shakib and have an avg high scoring M+ level of 23:

7 +23s = 2416

We're happy to discuss the scoring algorithm, but I do not think it is the main problem at hand.

These are the two primary problems we are working on solving:

1) Blizzard's API only returns the top 100 runs for a given realm/dungeon per week. This causes many players (particularly those on high pop servers) to never have a chance to get their runs ranked. While there are some tricks to sometimes get around it (run earlier in the week, run with those on low pop realms) - they aren't great solutions.

2) The addon wasn't showing rich enough data about a player's M+ history. The concept of Seasons is good for a certain population of the playerbase, but we recognize that not everyone really cares about that, and they really just want to get their max loot chest each week. Because the addon was operating on a season-basis, there were older data that was "rolling off" of what would be shown in the addon. Additionally, the way in which we were presenting Prior season data in the addon was making it too easy for people to make a negative gut reaction decision by seeing a lower value as in the current M+ Score line.

--

Because of this, we've been working on changes to the addon which just went live tonight:

- The addon will show the best score for players across their entire recorded M+ history. If the best score was from a past major tuning difference in M+ dungeons then their score is appended with a (*) [Note: this means scores from 7.2/7.2.5 show with (*)]. This allowed us to get rid of the "Previous Season Score" line altogether, and show that higher previous score directly in the main "Raider.IO M+ Score" line.

- The addon will now also include data for players who might have earned only a +10/+15 but do not have a high enough score. In these cases their score shows as "Unknown" rather than stating a "0". This is particularly to ensure that players from high pop realms will show up as having completed a +15, rather than showing up as though they don't have any M+ experience.

[Cracked]

Because of this, we've been working on changes to the addon which just went live tonight:

- The addon will show the best score for players across their entire recorded M+ history. If the best score was from a past major tuning difference in M+ dungeons then their score is appended with a (*) [Note: this means scores from 7.2/7.2.5 show with (*)]. This allowed us to get rid of the "Previous Season Score" line altogether, and show that higher previous score directly in the main "Raider.IO M+ Score" line.

- The addon will now also include data for players who might have earned only a +10/+15 but do not have a high enough score. In these cases their score shows as "Unknown" rather than stating a "0". This is particularly to ensure that players from high pop realms will show up as having completed a +15, rather than showing up as though they don't have any M+ experience.

Thanks, these are welcome changes. I still think that a formula that enforces you best couple of results is far superior to one that enforces being at least mediocre in all results. Another good metric to add would be to include the "M+15 completed in time: X" line such as wowprogress does, but I have no idea how far your data goes, as this is something that cannot be obtained from character data afaik.

[Aspir]

Thanks, these are welcome changes. I still think that a formula that enforces you best couple of results is far superior to one that enforces being at least mediocre in all results. Another good metric to add would be to include the "M+15 completed in time: X" line such as wowprogress does, but I have no idea how far your data goes, as this is something that cannot be obtained from character data afaik.

I think showing the number of M+15s completed in time within the addon would be great. I'll put this on the short-list of changes to make.

[Aspir]

The latest addon that will come out in a few hours (v201712220800) will have a new feature to show the number of 15+ or 10-14+ runs a player has completed, even if the runs never made it to the leaderboard. See some sample screenshots here:

Standard rollover:


By default we only show the highest level of runs, so as soon as a user has timed a 15+ it will start showing that metric there. Otherwise, it will show 10-14+.

Because of this, we also made it so you can hold down a modifier key (shift, alt, ctrl) on a player's tooltip if they are showing a 15+ to also see their 10-14+ data:

[Deleted]

I appreciate how you guys keep listening to and developing in the direction of the player feedback no matter how negative it is presented. Thank you!

[MrExcelion]

- The addon will show the best score for players across their entire recorded M+ history. If the best score was from a past major tuning difference in M+ dungeons then their score is appended with a (*) [Note: this means scores from 7.2/7.2.5 show with (*)]. This allowed us to get rid of the "Previous Season Score" line altogether, and show that higher previous score directly in the main "Raider.IO M+ Score" line

To echo another poster's statement, I appreciate you doing this. It'll take awhile for the word to spread about this change, but it's a big one, and probably the happy medium that a lot of people were looking for. I now have a higher M+ score just because earlier in the xpac I went really hard, and this will look better going forward in BFA.

[Ulsoga]

2017 is quickly coming to an end (for some of your it already has!) so we decided to do a summary of our development highlights since we started Raider.IO in January. We've come a long way and are eager to see where 2018 takes us.

See the page here:

https://raider.io/year-in-review-2017

Little preview image:

[Ehrenpanzer]

My girlfriend and I have been working on a raid rankings site called Raider.IO. Given that this is a new website we’d love to get community feedback as far as suggestions, bug reports, and various thoughts (good or bad) if you have them. All of your input is valuable to us!

I'll be maintaining this thread to show our weekly updates as we make them.

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[UPDATES -- UPDATES -- UPDATES]


January 27, 2017

- Bosses on rankings pages are now sorted from left to right in the order in which the guild defeated those bosses
- Usability feature on the rankings pages to let you more easily scan the order in which guilds are killing bosses, done by hovering over a boss icon in the list.

February 7, 2017

Addition of realm pages, accessible via "Realms" in the nav bar:
- A list of all realms in a given region, grouped by the connected realm they are a part of
- The type, faction balance, language, and time zones for the realms
- And a chart indicating the distribution of raid progress for that realm at the chosen difficulty

February 14, 2017

- Add Guild page supports Realm Auto Complete
- View Time Since Guild's Previous Boss Kill on Rankings

February 21, 2017

- Mobile support added

March 1, 2017

Filter the Realms list to specific Time Zones or Languages:
- See only Oceanic realms: https://raider.io/the-nighthold/real...mezone/oceanic
- See only realms in US Eastern, Central, Mountain, or Pacific time zones: https://raider.io/the-nighthold/real...one/us-eastern
- See realms designated for a specific language: https://raider.io/the-nighthold/real...language/ru-ru

March 7, 2017

- Search for guilds, realms, bosses with auto suggested matches
- Disbanded guilds now hidden from rankings, with the exception of the Hall of Fame page

March 14, 2017

First iteration of guild pages:
- Guild progression across entire tier visible at a glance in the header
- Each raid's World / Region / Realm rankings visible together
- Per-boss World / Region / Realm rankings visible by clicking a row
- You can click any of the ranks on a Guild Page to jump to that page in the appropriate leaderboard
- Ability to queue guild directly from guild page

March 22, 2017

- Fixed a bug that was redirecting the realm rankings to the US rankings on individual guild pages
- Reformatted the timestamps so they are easier to read
- The guilds are now sorted in the search and shouldn't shuffle around like they did previously. At the moment the algorithm is trying to show the most "relevant" guilds first, but this might need some tweaking.
- Searching for a realm now returns connected realm results as well
- ASCII characters are treated as regular characters in the search field. This means if you search for "Mirage" you'll also find a match for the guild "Mîragè"

March 27, 2017

- Rosters have now been added to the guild pages, for first kills only (we plan on expanding this). There are problems we are working through where alts are showing up multiple times on kills - hoping to fix that soon.
- Connected realms now pull up in the search

April 4, 2017
- We have added resource links (example: relevant raid guides from wowhead and fatboss) to the sidebars on all rankings pages
- Speed improvements and bug fixes with our crawler

April 11, 2017
- Fixed bug where clicking Next/Prev on the rankings list would always scroll you back to the top of the page
- Fixed bug on guild page where the 'right chevron' that you click on didn't rotate to be a 'down chevron' after clicking it
- Added sidebar links to guild details page (latest raid links and general raiding links)
- Crawler performance updates: the crawler will now not re-crawl/process characters if they haven't been updated since the last time they were crawled


April 18, 2017
- Implemented the back end changes necessary to begin scanning new types of content - not visible to the user on the front end but important work nonetheless!
- We also took some community suggestions under advisement and modified the next/prev buttons on the ranking pages even further. Hopefully much nicer to use now.

April 26, 2017
- Character pages: View various progression details about characters by clicking on their names from any of the roster views.
- Character search: We have updated the search functionality to include the ability to search for individual characters.
- Add new character: From the same page you use to add a new guild to our database, you can now add your characters. http://raider.io/add
- Mythic+ support: You can view a character's Mythic+ experience by visiting their character page. This will provide details about all the ranked Mythic+ runs the player has completed (important note: you must rank on Blizzard's official Mythic+ leaderboard to have runs show up here). It also provides a detailed view of the composition of the group, including the usage of: Average item level/Artifact Traits, Legendaries, Trinkets, and Tier Set Bonuses. Example page: http://www.raider.io/characters/us/s...usher/Fiveguys

You can also link directly to a Mythic+ run to share them with your friends by clicking the share button in the top right corner of the run. Example page: http://www.raider.io/mythic-plus/runs/753047

May 4, 2017
- Mythic+ leaderboards (see post here for details: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post45602999)
- Increased mobile support for the M+ pages
- FAQ updated and given a place in the top bar navigation

May 5, 2017
- Added various Mythic+ links to sidebar on pages with Mythic+ data
- Added full resolution clear time to Mythic+ pages (showing milliseconds). This is on-hover on the rankings pages, and just listed out on an individual run's page.
- By default realms that are part of a connected realm will link to the connected realm when clicked. The only exception here is on the Realms listing page where you can individually click a realm to see it's page directly.
- Updated titles for all pages to represent what you are actually seeing on the page
- Trailing slashes will be automatically removed from the end of character/guild URLs
- Backend crawler speed improvements
- Added 404 "Page Not Found" Page

May 16, 2017
- Created a M+ leaderboard that merges all of the instances. This still needs a small visual update to include a column for the dungeon names, but the information is there for users to browse.
- Added the option to view the Mythic+ leaderboards in "strict" mode, which completely eliminates all runs that did not make the timer from the list.
- Added the ability to filter runs by affixes. Previously if you viewed a M+ dungeon's leaderboard you'd see all of the runs compared against eachother. You can still view it this way (it is the default setting) but if you want to drill down deeper you have the option to do so. The filters can be applied to both the default and strict leaderboards.
- We have updated tool tips in the "Run Time" column to show the amount of time a run went over or under the timer.
- You can queue up a server's m+ leaderboard for a scan on our queuing page. This is particularly useful for players that complete a run at the end of the week, close to the time that Blizzard resets their leaderboard. It's the best way to guarantee we get your run in before it's inaccessible.
- We have added better (less obtrusive) social media icons to the navigation bar.
- The FAQ has been updated with a little more information
- Fixed an issue where we weren't tracking M+ runs done by groups consisting of players entirely on Azjol-Nerub (sorry guys!)
- Fixed issue where characters with blank names sometimes showing up in M+ runs.
- Fixed issue with the dropdown navigation bars highlighting and staying highlighted in odd ways
- Fixed a bug with modal errors using white text on a white background, making the error message invisible
- Backend crawler performance optimizations

May 25, 2017
- Revised Mythic Plus Leaderboards: Timed Runs Leaderboard, All Runs Leaderboard, and Characters Leaderboard
- Per-character Mythic+ Rankings using a newly designed scoring algorithm
- See post here for the full details: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post45863670

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Some people may immediately wonder why anyone would bother making a site like this when one already exists. I have a few answers to that.

1.) It’s always good to have more options. Back in the day people said that same thing about Wowhead because everyone was used to Thottbot. Just because something out there already does the job, doesn’t mean there isn’t room to improve upon the idea or to try something a little different.

2.) Our guild is not a mythic raiding guild and we like the idea of people across multiple difficulties being represented within their respective “tiers”. This isn’t fully implemented yet but is definitely a priority for us. The idea of going to a rankings page and seeing how you compare against guilds similar to your own is very appealing to us.

3.) It’s a labor of love. We’ve been playing WoW since Vanilla and have run successful fansites in the past. We like doing it and between the two of us (she’s an artist and I'm a programmer) we feel like we have the tools to make the sort of site that *we* want to use, and we hope that other people will want to use as well!

All that said, we’re really appreciate any feedback you folks might have for us. The more constructive input we get in these early developmental stages the stronger we can make the website become as we put more time into it.

You can find the site here: https://raider.io

Community Feedback=Please drown yourself in a toilet.

This is just as bad as gearscore was....

[Onikaroshi]

Community Feedback=Please drown yourself in a toilet.

This is just as bad as gearscore was....

It's not really that bad, just flawed and need some adjustment.

a) Leaderboards are a flawed way to collect info, but there really isn't another choice right now, hopefully in the future this can be changed

b) less emphasis needs to be put on overall runs, just cause you ran all the dungeons on whatever doesn't mean you're any good at that particular dungeon

c) MORE emphasis needs to be placed on individual dungeons and that weeks affixes, on a +20 X,Y,Z affixes I'd rather take someone who has done only that dungeon on +19+ with at least two of those affixes over someone who has 2500 score but only +16 that dungeon and not even the affixes.

This week people pushed score because the affixes were piss easy, everything is going to be inflated.

[ztn]

i want an option to see line with progress in current raid. smth like 2/11m or 9/11h. when gatther pug rais i will be happy to see progress of person without asking to link “curve achievement”

[Deleted]

It's not really that bad, just flawed and need some adjustment.

a) Leaderboards are a flawed way to collect info, but there really isn't another choice right now, hopefully in the future this can be changed

b) less emphasis needs to be put on overall runs, just cause you ran all the dungeons on whatever doesn't mean you're any good at that particular dungeon

c) MORE emphasis needs to be placed on individual dungeons and that weeks affixes, on a +20 X,Y,Z affixes I'd rather take someone who has done only that dungeon on +19+ with at least two of those affixes over someone who has 2500 score but only +16 that dungeon and not even the affixes.

This week people pushed score because the affixes were piss easy, everything is going to be inflated.

You do know that the addon shows your best run for the key you are applying to right? I mean if i have a key for 19 BRH and someone with 2.5k applies to BRH but has no BRH done it actually shows.
A tool is just a tool. There is no evil tool. It's just how you use it. b

You get to see each persons run. The affixes, The scores. The team comps. The item level. The legendaries. The tier sets. Only thing you don't get to see is dps/ intrerupts and deaths. But what you get is pretty decent for most keys up to some 20s where there's a different story.

So no. It's nice for those who are passionate about mythic plus to have something. I like to push my score not for some epeen. I just like to see how much i can push myself into this game and where my limits are. Mythic plus score helps me test my skills and hone them in every dungeon as i strive to improve them all bit by bit. I know i'm not a great player but i start from a low key and learn as much as possible to not be carried later on in other groups.

[ItsTiddles]

My Feedback=Please drown yourself in a toilet.

This is just as bad as gearscore was....

Fixed that for you.

[Onikaroshi]

You do know that the addon shows your best run for the key you are applying to right? I mean if i have a key for 19 BRH and someone with 2.5k applies to BRH but has no BRH done it actually shows.
A tool is just a tool. There is no evil tool. It's just how you use it. b

You get to see each persons run. The affixes, The scores. The team comps. The item level. The legendaries. The tier sets. Only thing you don't get to see is dps/ intrerupts and deaths. But what you get is pretty decent for most keys up to some 20s where there's a different story.

So no. It's nice for those who are passionate about mythic plus to have something. I like to push my score not for some epeen. I just like to see how much i can push myself into this game and where my limits are. Mythic plus score helps me test my skills and hone them in every dungeon as i strive to improve them all bit by bit. I know i'm not a great player but i start from a low key and learn as much as possible to not be carried later on in other groups.

It emphasizes the overall score, not the dungeon. Yes I know it shows the highest of the dungeon, but its third down the list, hell it lists highest overall before it lists highest of the dungeon, which means squat all. And it doesn't list highest of that dungeon on those affixes, or close to those affixes, it's just highest. You going to to trust someone who got a +18 done on Sang, Vol, Fort when its Bursting, Skittish, Tyrannical?

The tool is fresh, it's not bad, I never said it was, but for it to be the end all be all, it needs to show the info that matters, in game. The whole point of the addon was so you didn't need to go out to the web to look for all that. I wasn't dissing the addon in the least, it's just too flawed to be taken seriously still.

[Very Tired]

Why exactly did the mythic scores from last season get cleared? If someone knows a place well enough to clear it on 20+ I don't really care what the current raid tier is.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Add a feature that shows a separate "score" for the specific dungeon and the specific affixes. Until then, the score is an irrelevant metric for comparing two capable players and perpetuating its usage is enforcing bad habits in pugs like people leaving dungeons that wont be keyed.

[Deleted]

It emphasizes the overall score, not the dungeon. Yes I know it shows the highest of the dungeon, but its third down the list, hell it lists highest overall before it lists highest of the dungeon, which means squat all. And it doesn't list highest of that dungeon on those affixes, or close to those affixes, it's just highest. You going to to trust someone who got a +18 done on Sang, Vol, Fort when its Bursting, Skittish, Tyrannical?

The tool is fresh, it's not bad, I never said it was, but for it to be the end all be all, it needs to show the info that matters, in game. The whole point of the addon was so you didn't need to go out to the web to look for all that. I wasn't dissing the addon in the least, it's just too flawed to be taken seriously still.

Then it's on you how you use this addon again.
I put a key. I get 50 dpsapplicants. Of those 50 only 5 have done some runs before in this dungeon. For those 5 i check them on the website and see which affixes they did, what spec they play and what affixes there are now.
Sure its not 100% foolproof but nothing can be. As long as we involve humans there will always be room for error.

Also improving our mythic score comes with improving our runs. It's something some of us like. It comes naturally with pushing keys more and more.
I'm not mocking you for doing the same raid every week with no change whatsoever so what's your problem?

[Onikaroshi]

Then it's on you how you use this addon again.
I put a key. I get 50 dpsapplicants. Of those 50 only 5 have done some runs before in this dungeon. For those 5 i check them on the website and see which affixes they did, what spec they play and what affixes there are now.
Sure its not 100% foolproof but nothing can be. As long as we involve humans there will always be room for error.

Also improving our mythic score comes with improving our runs. It's something some of us like. It comes naturally with pushing keys more and more.
I'm not mocking you for doing the same raid every week with no change whatsoever so what's your problem?

I don't know why you keep pulling this out like I'm being negative, I honestly support the addon, just saying it needs improvements. Everything you need to know should be available through the in game addon.

And this:

Add a feature that shows a separate "score" for the specific dungeon and the specific affixes. Until then, the score is an irrelevant metric for comparing two capable players and perpetuating its usage is enforcing bad habits in pugs like people leaving dungeons that wont be keyed.

Like I said, it puts far too much emphasize on overall score as opposed to dungeon score. It can't really do anything about the poor dungeon tracking on Blizzard's end, hopefully BfA can bring improvements to that, but it can do things about what it displays and how it displays it.

It needs improvements is all, so really, stop thinking I'm trying to attack the addon or how you use it.