Raider.IO Development Updates - Raids and Mythic Plus

[Azerate]

People can 'require' all they want. If they are asking for requirements no-one will want to provide for the content I'd say it's their problem as they'll sit in LFG forever. If they are putting in higher requirements than you can provide, and they find takers, then I'd say it is your problem, and not theirs. It's like you're an apple seller at the market, going 'my apples are fairly priced, why isn't anyone buying?', when the stall next to you is selling the same apples for less. Requirements are driven by supply and demand.

This basically tusn LFG into a system for people to do the required +15 weekly who don't really care about it anymore because they outgear and "outprogress" it in crazy ways. Meanwhile, people who are actually at the level of +15 struggle to find a group, because to be accepted to a +15 right now, you need to have every single dungeon done in time on +17, or something like that.

Supply and demand yes, they can require all they want yes - this doesn't mean they aren't wrong and it's not utter stupidity and unfairness.

PS. I imagine it's not only about +15. I don't really check that too much cause I don't even want to think what they require for higher keys, but to get into a +18 or +19 pug you probably need a score that makes it irrelevant content too.

[HuxNeva]

This basically tusn LFG into a system for people to do the required +15 weekly who don't really care about it anymore because they outgear and "outprogress" it in crazy ways. Meanwhile, people who are actually at the level of +15 struggle to find a group, because to be accepted to a +15 right now, you need to have every single dungeon done in time on +17, or something like that.

Supply and demand yes, they can require all they want yes - this doesn't mean they aren't wrong and it's not utter stupidity and unfairness

I understand your frustration about not having an insta queue, but don't get the 'unfairness' and 'stupidity' part. Everyone receives a key and there are no barriers to listing it with whatever requirements YOU want. Set them as low as you want and your group will be filled in under 60 seconds, right? And it is not like dungeon runners require or expect any sort of 'leadership' from the group maker. Just running 2 instances a week gives you perpetual +15 chests. So what gives? Too much of a hassle? I'd realy like to know what is keeping you (or anyone else that seems to complain about this incessantly) from running your own keys.

[Deleted]

People can 'require' all they want. If they are asking for requirements no-one will want to provide for the content I'd say it's their problem as they'll sit in LFG forever. If they are putting in higher requirements than you can provide, and they find takers, then I'd say it is your problem, and not theirs. It's like you're an apple seller at the market, going 'my apples are fairly priced, why isn't anyone buying?', when the stall next to you is selling the same apples for less. Requirements are driven by supply and demand.

I actually enjoy the negative list I am growing with this approach.
My alts have been removed from groups at dungeon entrance without any feedback and I saw the group resurface in LFG = I don't want to play with such people, so I blacklist them for myself.
My alts have been declined from content they are very comfortable facerolling (if you based your decision on actually checking their gear, which shows where I got it from - which dungeons and how high the key was) and the group is still in LFG for long periods = I don't want to play with such people, so I blacklist them for myself.

You see - there are so many players out there, I don't mind blacklisting even hundreds of those I don't want to spend time with. I treat a "silent removal" or "decline from faceroll content while waiting for someone with over-the-top something instead" as signs of a mind-set I am not keen on sharing. Just another information about a player (the party-leader in this example) I can act upon and improve my gaming-time quality in the future.
I apprieciate all the great people I met in pugs and we added eachother in btag, on the other hand! They are great and I love finding such gems in the pug-hell

[Mlz]

... because to be accepted to a +15 right now, you need to have every single dungeon done in time on +17, or something like that.

I haven't even done every key on 15 (think I've done one on 17 and the lowest is 11) and I get accepted to 15+ just fine. Took my friend (sub 2k score) and myself to find another 17+ group as dps's for about 2-3 minutes just yesterday. My point: have you actually tried queueing up with a score that you'd get from doing 15-s or you just kind of pulled it out of your ass?

Edit: as I understand, your score as a DPS is ~1,3k. You've done one 16+, one 15+ and two 14+ in time and rest of your runs tend to be sub 10+. If I was you, I would only try queuing for the DHT, VoTW, EoA and NL you've done as higher keys as your chances of getting into them is way higher than getting into a 15+ MoS run having only done 9+ MoS as maximum. I just say that because whenever I run my keys on my alts I do not care much for the overall score but I do take people who have done the same dungeon I'm running on a semi-appropriate difficulty (so I often get 800 score people but they have done 13/14+ or something in the dungeon they are applying for; I do try to take at least one high-scored person as well to balance off the possible bad surprises). I understand it is not an ideal situation (as on higher pop realms some 15+ runs and such did not register) and I still get some derps but usually it tends to be fine.

Forgot another tip: try queuing for 14+ dungeons as they tend to get way fewer applicants than 15+ and above.

[HuxNeva]

I actually enjoy the negative list I am growing with this approach.
My alts have been removed from groups at dungeon entrance without any feedback and I saw the group resurface in LFG = I don't want to play with such people, so I blacklist them for myself.
My alts have been declined from content they are very comfortable facerolling (if you based your decision on actually checking their gear, which shows where I got it from - which dungeons and how high the key was) and the group is still in LFG for long periods = I don't want to play with such people, so I blacklist them for myself.

You see - there are so many players out there, I don't mind blacklisting even hundreds of those I don't want to spend time with. I treat a "silent removal" or "decline from faceroll content while waiting for someone with over-the-top something instead" as signs of a mind-set I am not keen on sharing. Just another information about a player (the party-leader in this example) I can act upon and improve my gaming-time quality in the future.
I apprieciate all the great people I met in pugs and we added each-other in btag, on the other hand! They are great and I love finding such gems in the pug-hell

Does that happen frequently? I've never seen anybody removed at dungeon entrance (not myself, nor any of the other players in the group and I've run many M+). As for the blacklisting: AFAIK the server /ignore list, which i think LFG is using, has a limit of 50 entries if I'm not mistaking. Do you use an extra filter addon or something?

[Deleted]

Does that happen frequently? I've never seen anybody removed at dungeon entrance (not myself, nor any of the other players in the group and I've run many M+). As for the blacklisting: AFAIK the server /ignore list, which i think LFG is using, has a limit of 50 entries if I'm not mistaking. Do you use an extra filter addon or something?

I did remove like 6 warriors in total for not re-speccing into shockwave after telling them to. If I invite them to stun the imps in CoS and they don't have a stun, I will replace them. But they have a feedback.

And I also decline 970 equipped 5k score people for some keys, because some keys are a mess with 3 melees (yay, quaking medivh with three melees, doable yes, annoying too) or the char has a name like XXroXXorXX or Beflbitch

[Deleted]

Does that happen frequently? I've never seen anybody removed at dungeon entrance (not myself, nor any of the other players in the group and I've run many M+). As for the blacklisting: AFAIK the server /ignore list, which i think LFG is using, has a limit of 50 entries if I'm not mistaking. Do you use an extra filter addon or something?

Doesn't happen often - rather the opposite. My point is that everything a player does basically gives me a hint if I want to play with him/her in the future or not. I am using an addon that was mentioned on this forum - can't check now.

[HuxNeva]

I did remove like 6 warriors in total for not re-speccing into shockwave after telling them to. If I invite them to stun the imps in CoS and they don't have a stun, I will replace them. But they have a feedback.

Fair enough, sounds legit

And I also decline 970 equipped 5k score people for some keys, because some keys are a mess with 3 melees (yay, quaking medivh with three melees, doable yes, annoying too) or the char has a name like XXroXXorXX or Beflbitch

Sure, but I assume you do not invite them and then remove them at the entrance.

[Deleted]

Sure, but I assume you do not invite them and then remove them at the entrance.

No, but (again after feedback) I will invite them and remove them if they are annoying or dumb people. My favorite happened on sunday again:
10 seconds after invite
Mage: Sum me
20 seconds after invite
Mage: Sum me
30 seconds after invite
Mage: Sum me
40 seconds after invite
Mage: Sum me
Mage: Sum me
2 minutes after invite, still doing his daily quests
Mage: Sum me
3 minutes after invite, still doing quests and is even further away from the dungeon than ever
Mage: Sum me
*mages gets summoned and runs inside*
Mage: Where are you? Why you still outside?
Mage: gogogogo
*10 secs later*
Mage: can we finally start?
*10 secs later*
Mage: Common, you are wasting my time

So apart from the wrong talents and not talking, there are some other situations in which i remove already invited players.

[HuxNeva]

No, but (again after feedback) I will invite them and remove them if they are annoying or dumb people. My favorite happened on sunday again:
10 seconds after invite
Mage: Sum me
20 seconds after invite
Mage: Sum me
30 seconds after invite
Mage: Sum me
40 seconds after invite
Mage: Sum me
Mage: Sum me
2 minutes after invite, still doing his daily quests
Mage: Sum me
3 minutes after invite, still doing quests and is even further away from the dungeon than ever
Mage: Sum me
*mages gets summoned and runs inside*
Mage: Where are you? Why you still outside?
Mage: gogogogo
*10 secs later*
Mage: can we finally start?
*10 secs later*
Mage: Common, you are wasting my time

So apart from the wrong talents and not talking, there are some other situations in which i remove already invited players.

Sure, but that is behavior based. Better to cut immediately as they will be a pain in the butt with a higher than average chance of leaving group for whatever reason.

[ID811717]

PS. I imagine it's not only about +15. I don't really check that too much cause I don't even want to think what they require for higher keys, but to get into a +18 or +19 pug you probably need a score that makes it irrelevant content too.

I think this (people asking unreasonable scores) mostly happens in groups doing +15/+16 for weekly. The requirements become more reasonable when you get to higher keys.

Back when everyone used wowprogress scores, it was common that people with a +19 key asked for a score one would get for doing, say, every +19 dungeon in time. This is a good way to choose people.

It is harder to set such milestones now that raider.io scores are used (How much score do you even get for doing all +19 keys in time on raider.io? Honestly, I have no idea. To me, this is the only inconvenient aspect of raider.io scores, and it is still vastly superior to wowprogress). So now I think it becomes increasingly popular that a party leader with X score will want everyone else to have X score (basically, they want to play with people at their own skill level). This has some upsides and some downsides, but overall it's a reasonable requirement as well.

[jaidalyn]

I love how I got kicked from a pug after invite because my score wasn't high enough when I had numerous better runs at the dungeon than the leader who kicked me. If only raider io score meant something... Did a 16 DHT not long after and the lead invited someone with their best DHT a 13, the guy d/c before the first boss and never returned.. We could've kicked him but it would make no difference, he's getting a timed 16 added to his score for not even being at his computer.. I formed a group before with people having less than 1k score for a +17 because they had a lot of experience/runs/timed runs at that particular dungeon and we timed it with no issue... I run with guildies occasionally who have next to no score and we can run through +15 keys no problem... I've ran with pug groups consisting 3k+ players when my score was only like 2k because LFG being dead at the time although I did have a timed best for dungeon worthy of that key, they were arrogant toward me and acted like I had no knowledge to give them, told me it was my lucky day as if it's some huge deal, they then proceeded to screw up non stop ignoring any advice I had and depleted the key... I've been in a group where a 4k player queued and got the insta invite and that 4k player got hit by any and all avoidable damage there was during the run..

Raider IO score is an arbitrary number that has little value for the majority of people that use it to judge people in LFG, as most of the best players avoid LFG like the plague... Yet so many people still use the score alone as the deciding factor whether to invite someone or not... People are idiots if you let them be and the score promotes them to be.. An hierarchy system that is extremely flawed, it can and does get farmed to reach higher levels giving people a false sense of pride and worthless egos..

Say you want to push your 19 key in a pug and you've 3 chested the dungeon at an 18 before but this is your first time doing the 19... Pretend the Raider. IO addon only showed score, you're gonna grab those high score players and hope for, perhaps expect the best... Now pretend Raider. IO addon didn't have score but showed Best for Dungeon, Best for Dungeon timed (perhaps how many at that key), and most timed 15+ runs at that dungeon, you'll grab players with a lot of timed runs and timed runs with a 17-18 key (or better) there... Which group of people would you have more faith in doing well for your key, the score based group where they could have a lot of experience at that dungeon and key level or they've just cheated their way up the colorful number ladder, OR the group where you clearly (mostly anyway) know everyone has the experience and knowledge for that dungeon and key level..

Even that can be flawed as I pointed out people without any data can know a dungeon well and do high keys or people can get carried though timed runs but if the point of the addon is to help people find others capable of doing well with your key with the information collected about them then why aren't they using that information in the addon... And why are they promoting this flawed toxic-inducing scoring system that serves no good purpose... If I have a +20 EoA, I don't care if you've never touched any of the other 12 dungeons a single time as long as you have the experience to do my +20 EoA...

But we gotta keep revenue coming at the website and give incentive to keep people pressing that update button, so let's leave out some vital information in the addon and create a hierarchy system however we can using those pretty colors that always distract people from true value... Should add the scoring colors on the website as well... I could be wrong but if Raider IO isn't a business, it should be.. Otherwise get rid of that scoring system that just preys on people's weakness...

[Caladia]

Do you harp on wowprogress.com for giving you a raiding score based on what Heroic/Mythic bosses you've killed and when? Why even track what bosses you've killed, that Mythic guild should just invite you to their raids because you said you were good. Why have logs at warcraftlogs.com, that's just arbitrary numbers full of cheesing mechanics to get those ranks.

Stop looking to break down the tool that helps provide the data, and instead blame the users using the tool incorrectly. Then offer feedback to the tools to help them become better for the community.

[jearle]

I love how I got kicked from a pug after invite because my score wasn't high enough when I had numerous better runs at the dungeon than the leader who kicked me. If only raider io score meant something... Did a 16 DHT not long after and the lead invited someone with their best DHT a 13, the guy d/c before the first boss and never returned.. We could've kicked him but it would make no difference, he's getting a timed 16 added to his score for not even being at his computer.. I formed a group before with people having less than 1k score for a +17 because they had a lot of experience/runs/timed runs at that particular dungeon and we timed it with no issue... I run with guildies occasionally who have next to no score and we can run through +15 keys no problem... I've ran with pug groups consisting 3k+ players when my score was only like 2k because LFG being dead at the time although I did have a timed best for dungeon worthy of that key, they were arrogant toward me and acted like I had no knowledge to give them, told me it was my lucky day as if it's some huge deal, they then proceeded to screw up non stop ignoring any advice I had and depleted the key... I've been in a group where a 4k player queued and got the insta invite and that 4k player got hit by any and all avoidable damage there was during the run..

Raider IO score is an arbitrary number that has little value for the majority of people that use it to judge people in LFG, as most of the best players avoid LFG like the plague... Yet so many people still use the score alone as the deciding factor whether to invite someone or not... People are idiots if you let them be and the score promotes them to be.. An hierarchy system that is extremely flawed, it can and does get farmed to reach higher levels giving people a false sense of pride and worthless egos..

Say you want to push your 19 key in a pug and you've 3 chested the dungeon at an 18 before but this is your first time doing the 19... Pretend the Raider. IO addon only showed score, you're gonna grab those high score players and hope for, perhaps expect the best... Now pretend Raider. IO addon didn't have score but showed Best for Dungeon, Best for Dungeon timed (perhaps how many at that key), and most timed 15+ runs at that dungeon, you'll grab players with a lot of timed runs and timed runs with a 17-18 key (or better) there... Which group of people would you have more faith in doing well for your key, the score based group where they could have a lot of experience at that dungeon and key level or they've just cheated their way up the colorful number ladder, OR the group where you clearly (mostly anyway) know everyone has the experience and knowledge for that dungeon and key level..

Even that can be flawed as I pointed out people without any data can know a dungeon well and do high keys or people can get carried though timed runs but if the point of the addon is to help people find others capable of doing well with your key with the information collected about them then why aren't they using that information in the addon... And why are they promoting this flawed toxic-inducing scoring system that serves no good purpose... If I have a +20 EoA, I don't care if you've never touched any of the other 12 dungeons a single time as long as you have the experience to do my +20 EoA...

But we gotta keep revenue coming at the website and give incentive to keep people pressing that update button, so let's leave out some vital information in the addon and create a hierarchy system however we can using those pretty colors that always distract people from true value... Should add the scoring colors on the website as well... I could be wrong but if Raider IO isn't a business, it should be.. Otherwise get rid of that scoring system that just preys on people's weakness...

Holy shit this is some rage writing right here.

Don't like the fact that people use raider.io, don't run pug groups.
Want to run pug groups? Grind that raider.io score so you improve your chances of getting in them.

Nobody likes to get excluded from things, but there are a million players and only so many spots in keys. Of course players are going to find a mechanics to try to separate the good from the mediocre from the terrible. Don't blame the tool, blame the people misusing it.

Someone requiring 3k to join a +15? Maybe they think that is going to make the key go smoother, maybe they want to get carried without paying for it. Who knows man. The same shit happens with PuG raids, raid leader requires AoTC and gear 15 ilvls higher than what drops in the raid.

Play with guildies or make some off server friends to run keys with. Or keep pugging and have bad experiences to share with us on mmo-c.

[ItsTiddles]

Do you harp on wowprogress.com for giving you a raiding score based on what Heroic/Mythic bosses you've killed and when?.

I don't even see people harp on wowp for having m+ scores. No telling how many times I've read "before m+ scores" when people complain about raiderio as if wowp didn't have it from the beginning. Raiderio just brought a better executed version and always asking for and responding to community feedback.

However, saying things like "this is toxic/cancer/blahblahblah" without offering any real advice, isn't feedback. It's whining. They aren't going to get rid of such a popular site that they've put so many hours of work into because someone from the forums doesn't like that they haven't bloated their addon with every piece of info people can find by using their handy dandy "get raider.io link" feature.

[fiestatastic]

This basically tusn LFG into a system for people to do the required +15 weekly who don't really care about it anymore because they outgear and "outprogress" it in crazy ways. Meanwhile, people who are actually at the level of +15 struggle to find a group, because to be accepted to a +15 right now, you need to have every single dungeon done in time on +17, or something like that.

Supply and demand yes, they can require all they want yes - this doesn't mean they aren't wrong and it's not utter stupidity and unfairness.

PS. I imagine it's not only about +15. I don't really check that too much cause I don't even want to think what they require for higher keys, but to get into a +18 or +19 pug you probably need a score that makes it irrelevant content too.

idk, personally I don't pug ppl for keys too often since I'm in a pretty active guild, but tbh when apps pst raider.io as their thing I don't take them, as does pretty much everyone in my guild. People who are raiders that just get whatever the easiest 15 done that's available don't have high scores, and don't care what their score is ... and they just want to get their 15 done for the reward, so they'll stick with it for a completion even if the timer expires. People that are overly concerned about raider.io will leave sometimes after 1 player dies, if people are chatting too much, not taking it super seriously, etc, and usually don't do very well anyway. It's just not a good idea to take raider.io'ers over mythic raiders imo ... and raider.io'ers go for it the other way around, nbd, plenty of keys out there and I'm sure plenty of people other than myself that prefer good players regardless of score or even preferring lower scores.

The way raider.io is set up it heavily pushes people into not completing a dungeon vs completing it after the timer, it's a wacky scoring system in general, but I'd rather not take chances with ppl that care about the raider.io side game over just getting the weekly reward efficiently.

[HuxNeva]

I love how I got kicked from a pug after invite because my score wasn't high enough

--- snip some inconsistent word salad ---

get rid of that scoring system that just preys on people's weakness...

I once saw a guy hammering a nail with a wrench. Should we get rid of wrenches?

The 'score' is just compressing a bunch of info into a very tiny space. As numerous people have stated, it is usually not the first signal they look at. For me as well, the 'score' just comes into the picture after the 'best for the instance' and 'best overall'. If those 'fail', then I might look at the 'score' (or the score of the main) to see 'hey, that guy only did a +14 for DHT, but he has done a +19 EoA, and given that he has over 2.3K on his main he's not a one trick EoA running pony so he'll probably be alright for this DHT+17. Let's check his ilvl, 950 should make him not too squishy, so yeah i'll toss an invite'.

And no, i'm not going to do an in-depth interview with all the applicants and question them about their knowledge of their class and the dungeon's pulls and affixes. I'm not even going to click through to their raider.io page and check on their experience with this week's affixes.

And no signal can perfectly predict the future. That 4K girl that has run the instance on +23 can mess up your +19 because her mouse died and she's trying to trackpad it, or she can be drunk, or the being excessively hassled by her cat or whatever. But 'on average' you can bet that a 4K player will have a higher chance of giving you a smooth +20 run than Jimmy 1K that's boasting about how he's god's own gift to M+.

[Deleted]

idk, personally I don't pug ppl for keys too often since I'm in a pretty active guild, but tbh when apps pst raider.io as their thing I don't take them, as does pretty much everyone in my guild. People who are raiders that just get whatever the easiest 15 done that's available don't have high scores, and don't care what their score is ... and they just want to get their 15 done for the reward, so they'll stick with it for a completion even if the timer expires. People that are overly concerned about raider.io will leave sometimes after 1 player dies, if people are chatting too much, not taking it super seriously, etc, and usually don't do very well anyway. It's just not a good idea to take raider.io'ers over mythic raiders imo ... and raider.io'ers go for it the other way around, nbd, plenty of keys out there and I'm sure plenty of people other than myself that prefer good players regardless of score or even preferring lower scores.

How do you know someone you never met before is a good player?

And people with high myth+ experience know that you can and will die sometimes. Its not leaving because 1 player dies. Its usually because a "4k score, 3 chest +20 after" group has people die to things like volcanic. Thats false advertising. You can die a lot and still make the timer.

The way raider.io is set up it heavily pushes people into not completing a dungeon vs completing it after the timer, it's a wacky scoring system in general, but I'd rather not take chances with ppl that care about the raider.io side game over just getting the weekly reward efficiently.

Explain the bolded part please. I don't get it. You can't lower your score with a new run. If you are a lot above the timer, the lower keys will give you a higher score and therefore will be shown on raider.io. There is a lot of reasons to not finish a dungeon. Raider.io scoring isn't one (unless you don't understand the scoring system)

[HuxNeva]

The way raider.io is set up it heavily pushes people into not completing a dungeon vs completing it after the timer, it's a wacky scoring system in general, but I'd rather not take chances with ppl that care about the raider.io side game over just getting the weekly reward efficiently.

Why would that be? I'm guessing since you're saying weekly reward, that means a +15/16, which for most would not be 'pushing their score', and even if it was, why would they bail for 'not making the timer'? Asshole will be assholes, but I don't see what raider.io would have to do with this.

[Aestereal]

There's a big difference between "not making the timer" and "wiped on a boss three or four times with no progress". That has nothing to do with score. Some people sign up for a run that should take 30 minutes to an hour, and if it's clear it's going to take longer and they don't have time, there's no point in stringing along the group.