The STEM Crisis Is a Myth

[BiggestNoob]

http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/edu...isis-is-a-myth

This is from 2013, but still accurate.

Excerpt from article:

That report argued that the best indicator of a shortfall would be a widespread rise in salaries throughout the STEM community. But the price of labor has not risen, as you would expect it to do if STEM workers were scarce. In computing and IT, wages have generally been stagnant for the past decade, according to the EPI and other analyses. And over the past 30 years, according to the Georgetown report, engineers’ and engineering technicians’ wages have grown the least of all STEM wages and also more slowly than those in non-STEM fields; while STEM workers as a group have seen wages rise 33 percent and non-STEM workers’ wages rose by 23 percent, engineering salaries grew by just 18 percent. The situation is even more grim for those who get a Ph.D. in science, math, or engineering. The Georgetown study states it succinctly: “At the highest levels of educational attainment, STEM wages are not competitive.”

[Wyrt]

So, wages will drop when the markets flood with all the people getting STEM degrees because everyone was yelling about STEM being the only correct choice for higher education.

[Nitros14]

My understanding is that there is a STEM shortage, but only of extremely skilled and talented people.

There's no lack of average applicants, which keeps wages down.

Corporations propagate the myth of a shortage to try to convince lawmakers to allow them to import more extremely skilled and talented people from outside the country rather than hiring average americans workers.

[Celista]

I made a thread about this a year or two ago. Most of the thread was like, "nahhhh..." despite the actual people who worked in STEM commenting in the thread that agreed with the included article.

My understanding is that there is a STEM shortage, but only of extremely skilled and talented people.

"Extremely skilled and talented" is bullshit, sorry. I love how industries like to claim talent pool shortages instead of training people properly...there is no job on the planet that you can't find a skilled worker for, there are billions of people on this planet and no work is so special snowflake-y that you can't find someone to fill it.

[PC2]

I would much rather have surplus STEM majors than a surplus in the arts and humanities. But I do think the STEM crisis narrative is not true, even though I like the support it can cause.

Eric Weinstein recently made comments similar to the OP.

6:05

[Garnier Fructis]

My understanding is that there is a STEM shortage, but only of extremely skilled and talented people.

There's no lack of average applicants, which keeps wages down.

I can see this. I saw a lot of people getting STEM degrees that were basically incompetent; a result of professors being too hesitant to fail people. And most of these will never get STEM jobs.

[Nitros14]

I made a thread about this a year or two ago. Most of the thread was like, "nahhhh..." despite the actual people who worked in STEM commenting in the thread that agreed with the included article.


"Extremely skilled and talented" is bullshit, sorry. I love how industries like to claim talent pool shortages instead of training people properly...there is no job on the planet that you can't find a skilled worker for, there are billions of people on this planet and no work is so special snowflake-y that you can't find someone to fill it.

It's certainly true that corporations as a whole have decided to stop training people and expect to shift the burden onto the education system or their rivals.

[Celista]

I would much rather have surplus STEM majors than a surplus in the arts and humanities.

Both are a waste and there is more to life than writing code.

If anything your post is a good argument for going after what you want instead of what the in-demand job is of the moment. Future job demand is unpredictable and you might as well be a happy broke musician instead of a miserable unemployed programmer.

Obviously most vocational decisions are not so black and white, people can make tradeoffs from bad to meh.

[Garnier Fructis]

"Extremely skilled and talented" is bullshit, sorry. I love how industries like to claim talent pool shortages instead of training people properly...there is no job on the planet that you can't find a skilled worker for, there are billions of people on this planet and no work is so special snowflake-y that you can't find someone to fill it.

The thing is, if someone can't solve a basic statics problem after 4 years of engineering classes, then no amount of training is going to make them qualified to work on airplane design. I knew someone that worked for a tech company, and part of their interview process was just having applicants solve basic problems they should have done tons of times in their undergrad programs. And a surprising amount of people screw up; people that are not worth training.

When grade inflation is pushing out a bunch of people that don't actually know what they're doing, then it takes time to find people who are actually worth hiring.

- - - Updated - - -

I would much rather have surplus STEM majors than a surplus in the arts and humanities.

No thanks. I want less competition, not more. If the argument against arts and humanities is that it's pointless and hard to find jobs with, then that's no different from a surplus of STEM majors who can't find work in STEM.

[PC2]

Both are a waste and there is more to life than writing code.

If anything your post is a good argument for going after what you want instead of what the in-demand job is of the moment. Future job demand is unpredictable and you might as well be a happy broke musician instead of a miserable unemployed programmer.

Obviously most vocational decisions are not so black and white, people can make tradeoffs from bad to meh.

Unemployed STEM > New Artists

Modern art is worthless rehashing.

[Macaquerie]

The thing is, if someone can't solve a basic statics problem after 4 years of engineering classes, then no amount of training is going to make them qualified to work on airplane design. I knew someone that worked for a tech company, and part of their interview process was just having applicants solve basic problems they should have done tons of times in their undergrad programs. And a surprising amount of people screw up; people that are not worth training.

When grade inflation is pushing out a bunch of people that don't actually know what they're doing, then it takes time to find people who are actually worth hiring.

The problem is that too many kids are getting pushed into careers that can put food on the table rather than pursuing something they are actually interested in. And while that might sound like solid advice, all that means is that you end up with a ton of prospective engineers who don't really give a shit about engineering and are just doing the minimum required to get by rather than taking the time to really hone their craft.

[Wyrt]

Unemployed STEM > New Artists

Modern art is worthless rehashing.

You realize things like photography, filmmaking, design, and writing are all arts right? There's more to art than just dribbling paint on a canvas.

Though I guess I wouldn't be terribly surprised if you didn't read books and therefore see writing as a waste of time.

[Dug]

Unemployed STEM > New Artists

Modern art is worthless rehashing.

Most ignorant and uninformed comment of the day goes to...

[PACOX]

In IT people think you're a wizard but don't want to pay you for your magic tricks.

[Garnier Fructis]

Unemployed STEM > New Artists

Modern art is worthless rehashing.

Employed Artists > unemployed STEM = unemployed Artists.

[BiggestNoob]

So, wages will drop when the markets flood with all the people getting STEM degrees because everyone was yelling about STEM being the only correct choice for higher education.

Not necessarily "drop" but they have been stagnant indicating the market has been flooded as opposed to in a drought.

The problem is that too many kids are getting pushed into careers that can put food on the table rather than pursuing something they are actually interested in. And while that might sound like solid advice, all that means is that you end up with a ton of prospective engineers who don't really give a shit about engineering and are just doing the minimum required to get by rather than taking the time to really hone their craft.

There's some truth to that, and many people who do the bare minimum tend to have more trouble getting employed. I can say that in tech you get a LOT of applicants who are not even remotely qualified but who have spent years (decades in some cases) in the industry, employed on and off, at places including once venerable Yahoo as an anecdotal example from my experience.

There's also a problem on the other end of the spectrum with people being encouraged to do whatever they want, then being frustrated nobody will pay them for this completely useless thing they studied (basically for a lack of skills). I don't think everyone should get a STEM degree, but in general I think it's sound to pick something that is marketable that you can tolerate doing (ideally something you like) and get really good at it, not just passable.

[PC2]

You realize things like photography, filmmaking, design, and writing are all arts right? There's more to art than just dribbling paint on a canvas.

Though I guess I wouldn't be terribly surprised if you didn't read books and therefore see writing as a waste of time.

The only new art that isn't worthless rehashing is that which is enabled by STEM. Such as VR, which isn't quite there yet tech-wise.

[Wyrt]

The only new art that isn't worthless rehashing is that which is enabled by STEM. Such as VR, which isn't quite there yet technologically.

So, you don't read books then?

[PC2]

So, you don't read books then?

I read new non-fiction, but that's not art.

[usiris]

My understanding is that there is a STEM shortage, but only of extremely skilled and talented people.

There's no lack of average applicants, which keeps wages down.

Corporations propagate the myth of a shortage to try to convince lawmakers to allow them to import more extremely skilled and talented people from outside the country rather than hiring average americans workers.

Yep.

When looking at the valley, there isnt a real shortage of software engineers, but a lack of senior level software engineers.