Melee Mechanics in NH

[l33t]

NH has this vibe that melee is for dps and ranged are for the mechanics. I've grown used to the 2nd part but the dps part is kinda annoying.

Agreed.

TBH, I feel like this is my last expansion. I like absolutely none of the changes blizzard made in legion, and none of the two legion raids I liked, so that's a huge neon sign that its time to find a new game to play. Playing miserable ranged who have to work double in raids to do 0.7 of what a tunneling melee does only adds frustration.

[Raiju]

Thats very weird, never seen that. But if you have, then I won't deny that then

Guess that could depend on how many groups you make to soak the absolute zero, since Icy ejection targets that group.

We aren't at mythic augur yet, but we just single group normal/hc

[Shakou]

lol people trying to say that Nighthold isn't melee friendly up in here, y'all are straight trolling or just don't know what you're talking about because all you do is trivial (lfr, norm, heroic) content. Nighthold is so melee friendly that the best case raid comp actually flipped from what it is in EN. In Nighthold you just take enough ranged (5-6) to deal with mechanics and the rest of your dps is melee, it was the exact opposite in EN.

And no, Icy Injection does not go on melee at all ever unless you don't have enough ranged/heals or you're doing the fight wrong and ignoring the tank mechanic outright. Which is stupid because it doesn't help anyone at all whatsoever in any way shape or form.

[Raiju]

As explained, when you don't need to do 3 groups single group stack is far more efficient, but also leaves melee with injections

[liquidfear]

most of the fights in mythic NH definitely have ranged doing more mechanics than melee, but it's not too bad since it's mostly 1 or 2 extra mechanics per fight, but then you hit guldan and ranged have to do fucking everything. lots of guilds are running extremely heavy melee comps on m guldan just to have only the best ranged deal with the hellfire baiting, eye spreading, bonds soaking/positioning etc

[honung]

Skorpyron: The same for ranged and melee.
Anomaly: Basically the same for ranged and melee, Time Bomb seems to mostly target ranged.
Trilliax: The same for ranged and melee with the exception of Succulent Feast soaking which is normally not done by melee.
Spellblade: Ranged deal with the Mark of Frost in Frost Phase while melee dodge the Fel Soul. Fire and Arcane phases the same.
Tichondrius: Ranged handling adds and having to deal with Brands. Seeker Swarm soaking normally handled by melee and tanks. Otherwise the same.
Krosus: Ranged have to run with the Orb while melee have to not fall off when the bridge breaks. Otherwise the same.
Botanist: Only ranged kill second orb and adds mostly handled by ranged as well. Suiciding in phase 3 only affects ranged. Big difference in this fight.
Star Augur: Very similar between melee and ranged.

This as far as I've got. There are some differences, mainly on Botanist, but let's not exaggerate.

[Deleted]

Skorpyron: The same for ranged and melee.
Anomaly: Basically the same for ranged and melee, Time Bomb seems to mostly target ranged.
Trilliax: The same for ranged and melee with the exception of Succulent Feast soaking which is normally not done by melee.
Spellblade: Ranged deal with the Mark of Frost in Frost Phase while melee dodge the Fel Soul. Fire and Arcane phases the same.
Tichondrius: Ranged handling adds and having to deal with Brands. Seeker Swarm soaking normally handled by melee and tanks. Otherwise the same.
Krosus: Ranged have to run with the Orb while melee have to not fall off when the bridge breaks. Otherwise the same.
Botanist: Only ranged kill second orb and adds mostly handled by ranged as well. Suiciding in phase 3 only affects ranged. Big difference in this fight.
Star Augur: Very similar between melee and ranged.

This as far as I've got. There are some differences, mainly on Botanist, but let's not exaggerate.

wtf? Have you even done the fights?

[Solial]

wtf? Have you even done the fights?

Have you? He's spot on.

[liquidfear]

Skorpyron: The same for ranged and melee.
Anomaly: Basically the same for ranged and melee, Time Bomb seems to mostly target ranged.
Trilliax: The same for ranged and melee with the exception of Succulent Feast soaking which is normally not done by melee.
Spellblade: Ranged deal with the Mark of Frost in Frost Phase while melee dodge the Fel Soul. Fire and Arcane phases the same.
Tichondrius: Ranged handling adds and having to deal with Brands. Seeker Swarm soaking normally handled by melee and tanks. Otherwise the same.
Krosus: Ranged have to run with the Orb while melee have to not fall off when the bridge breaks. Otherwise the same.
Botanist: Only ranged kill second orb and adds mostly handled by ranged as well. Suiciding in phase 3 only affects ranged. Big difference in this fight.
Star Augur: Very similar between melee and ranged.

This as far as I've got. There are some differences, mainly on Botanist, but let's not exaggerate.

feels like you're downplaying the differences a bit tbh, mainly the actual important mechanics/hard part of shared mechanics of most fights in NH are done by ranged

agree on first 2

trilliax - ranged have to soak far away cakes and bombs which requires more awareness while melee afk on boss, harder to dps during beam phase for ranged, both melee/ranged get bond mechanic, but obviously if a ranged and melee get paired, the ranged has to move and stay on the melee

spell - mostly agree, except ranged also have to dodge the fel soul as well, and the mark of frost mechanic is probably the most important mechanic which is done by ranged

krosus - mostly agree, except first 2 soaks depend heavily on ranged, ranged soaking improperly causes wipes, whereas if melee soak improperly it's easily handled since everyone is facing the adds and you have melee there instead of just having rdps with adds in the back

agree on tich

bot - mostly agree but basically every mechanic is aimed at ranged on this one, easily the most skewed for melee/ranged until last 2 bosses.
i.e. ranged deal with lashers unless you really need melee help, collapses spawn on ranged (melee dont even have to dodge sometimes) call of night spawns on ranged, yeah melee dps the orb, but only the orb that they're already next to, ranged control the rate at which the other one dies, suicides as you mentioned

auger - agree pretty equal

eli - ranged need to position properly for singularity (suprisingly important mechanic) ranged soak orbs (very important mechanic) ranged interrupt/dps (also very important) adds outside of the first set of adds per phase, ranged just need much better positioning overall for this fight compared to melee

guldan - well ranged basically do everything here. p1 = ranged baiting hellfires, spreading for eyes, ranged having to position properly for bonds. (this shit is the worst because you have hellfires then bonds then hellfires right after or eyes then bonds then hellfires, crazy amount of movement for ranged in p1) fairly even spread of ranged/melee dealing with bonds. p2 is fairly equal, apart from the eye again. haven't seen p3 in practice, but ranged (mostly just 1 mage) have to deal with nightorb, parasites are generally stunned by melee

but yeah the main point im getting at is, along with most mechanics being aimed at ranged, most of the actual fight deciding mechanics in NH are done by ranged

[Jastall]

Man, we've had years and years of the official policy for hard raids being ''bring as much range as you possibly can'' (ye gods BRF) and now that we have one raid that's more melee friendly, the sky is falling.

[judgementofantonidas]

How does the MMO-C community feel about melee mechanics in NH? I've seen a growing sentiment that the fights aren't engaging enough for melee mechanically. Do you agree with this, or do you feel its no different than previous raid tiers? Chime in below.

Probably came from the excessive amount of tears from the ever too large melee community that raid leaders tended to not take an excessive amount of melee due to the burden they used to put on healers. See the post immediately preceding this one.

- - - Updated - - -

at least be honest.

botanist all mechanics except night debuff are shared. melee has to kill orbs and adds too. both have to dodge collapse and chaos, both have to dodge spores while moving.

tichondrius the only mechanic melee doesn't deal with at all is the green circles, but on the other hand melee often can't dps when hiding behind pillars. on normal and heroic these days ranged can ingore bloods too because melee cleave em in a few seconds. and the plague is actually easier to deal with for ranged the melee due to camera angles and amount of room to spread in. damn sounds like melee actually got it harder on tich oh shit now what.

melee kills the orb that the tanks park the boss on top of.......................
melee suffers no dps loss while taking two steps to the right to avoid collapse or chaos or orbs while moving. unless they are clickers........
I have rarely as the tank not been able to place Tichondrius within melee range of a spike.
Cleaving bloods by the melee is not an average player approach.


so wasted space on this forum post.

[Deleted]

It is a known fact that Melee players are deeper into tunnelmode than ranged players. Because the game has taught them that.

[Mercane]

I feel like some of you are spending entirely too much time arguing about the difference between normal/heroic mechanics and repeating misinformation about the 'other role' on mythic encounters.

Skorpyron is a joke, and who really cares.

Chronomatic essentially has everyone tunnel the damn boss while 3 melee kill the other add. Time Bomb doesn't really matter and only really serves to ruin 1-2 people's parses anyway.

Trilliax is about even, since ranged get the far cakes, melee get the cakes around the boss. Melee move the entire encounter with the only real moment of stationary combat immediately following annihilation. This fight however is also largely a joke and so far into 'whatever, who cares?' arguing about who has it harder is inane and pointless.

Krosus is about even as far as mechanical distribution goes, sure ranged get orb of destruction, but everyone should be running as far back to soak as possible and just cleaving the adds off the boss (if you're cool like that anyway) as they're all AoE stunned anyway.

Spellblade got nerfed into the ground and is a joke anyway, so who cares. Pre-nerf spinning cyclone add was annoying af, but you can push phases on her so quickly now it doesn't really matter.

Tichondrius is probably the easiest of the 'real mythic encounters' and arguing about bonds (which most people don't break anyway) or pillar positioning is stupid. Murder Bats, Murder Adds, Murder Boss, Get Loot.

Botanist is an annoying mix of side-step this, swap targets to that, "STOP FUCKING AOE CHEESING THE BOSS ADDS". Don't get hit by lashers (everyone), don't fuck up call of night. Hard stuff, truly.

Star Augur is mostly not screwing up regular mechanics while most importantly not screwing up grand conjunction. The only thing about this fight at all interesting is the argument between the 'addons play the game for you' people and 'lol this weakaura is amazing' people.

I'd talk about the last 2 on mythic but we're pretty much still wiping to arguments about the ethical use of weakauras and manipulating nameplates to actually get there. I think everyone that's every played melee will say that fight sucks, and if you're a ranged getting dumpstered by a melee on Elisande, you're literally dumpster tier and probably not on this encounter anyway.

[Deleted]

melee kills the orb that the tanks park the boss on top of.......................
melee suffers no dps loss while taking two steps to the right to avoid collapse or chaos or orbs while moving. unless they are clickers........
I have rarely as the tank not been able to place Tichondrius within melee range of a spike.
Cleaving bloods by the melee is not an average player approach.


so wasted space on this forum post.

implying ranged has to move to dps orbs or has to take more then two steps to get out of collapse. i mean if you wanna take this argument all the way, ranged can be spread out more then melee which means they statiscially can avoid more collapses without moving at all all other things being equal.
if you rarely cant move tich to a pillar that means sometimes you cant dps, whereas ranged is always in range.

like seriously if you wanna argue its easier for melee then ranged at least pick a boss on which its obviously the case not one where its minor things at best.

[Adp]

While its fine and all, this is not true. I play both melee and ranged in nighthold, and dear god when I am melee its such a breeze doing bosses in there compared to ranged. I play only heroic modes tho, so on mythic it might be a bit different.

Aluriel: Frost does not target melee if you have enough ranged/healers.

Star Augur. Icy ejection prioritize healers/ranged.

Botanist: Melee does not do adds, and not targeted by the thing that spawns adds. Ranged deal with spores and FoN, we have some times rogues coming out to soak alot of spores with cloak, but not that much really.

Krosus: Melee can faceroll except when they need to move away from collapsing bridge.

Trilliax: ranged deal with scrubbers, dealing with sterilize, deal with scrubbers if they explode, during beam melee can keep their rotation up.

Elisande: ranged soak the orbs, melee on boss/adds all the time.

Gul'dan: Melee does not do soaking of souls, ranged/healers enough. This so the dps on the boss isn't suffering alot.

Tichondrius: Melee on boss all the time, both cleave the adds on the boss. Ranged deal with elite adds. The green rune spawns in ranged, and in the end of each phase RANGED need to move to melee to get rid of it.

And on all bosses, melee can keep their rotation up while moving.

Really, its okay that ranged has to do more for a raid, don't need to cover it up with non-existant melee-jobs wich is just false.

I'm referring to heroic mode as well. This is my experience:

Aluriel ~ I get targeted by mark of frost all the time. Sometimes 2-3 times in a row. I'm not sure who these people are that claim melee doesn't get hit by this...

Star Augur ~ yea but I still get hit by it usually at least once.

Botanist ~ We all switch to adds, I get fixated at least once or twice.

Trilliax ~ We have a DH that deals with most of these things.

Elisande ~ I soak orbs with feint from time to time

Gul'dan ~ We tank Gul'dan nearby the well so stepping in and out of it isn't a dps loss for melee. Thus, we soak the souls too.

Tich ~ Melee cleave the bloods away from the boss, and deal with adds along with ranged. Ranged do have to deal with the green rune this is true.

It's important to note that having your dps suffer or not from doing mechanics doesn't mean you aren't doing mechanics if you can mantain your rotation. I'm not looking to turn this thread into a melee vs ranged dps show.

[Fleckens]

I'm referring to heroic mode as well. This is my experience:

Aluriel ~ I get targeted by mark of frost all the time. Sometimes 2-3 times in a row. I'm not sure who these people are that claim melee doesn't get hit by this...

Star Augur ~ yea but I still get hit by it usually at least once.

Botanist ~ We all switch to adds, I get fixated at least once or twice.

Trilliax ~ We have a DH that deals with most of these things.

Elisande ~ I soak orbs with feint from time to time

Gul'dan ~ We tank Gul'dan nearby the well so stepping in and out of it isn't a dps loss for melee. Thus, we soak the souls too.

Tich ~ Melee cleave the bloods away from the boss, and deal with adds along with ranged. Ranged do have to deal with the green rune this is true.

It's important to note that having your dps suffer or not from doing mechanics doesn't mean you aren't doing mechanics if you can mantain your rotation. I'm not looking to turn this thread into a melee vs ranged dps show.

You don't seem to understand how mark of frost works. the initial application is never on a melee player. But when you collide with another player they will jump to the nearest target, so if you get it you were simply too close/other ranged were too far away. It's pretty much the only hard mechanic of the fight on mythic as well so that's why the fight is generally more demanding on ranged than melee players.

[Adp]

You don't seem to understand how mark of frost works. the initial application is never on a melee player. But when you collide with another player they will jump to the nearest target, so if you get it you were simply too close/other ranged were too far away. It's pretty much the only hard mechanic of the fight on mythic as well so that's why the fight is generally more demanding on ranged than melee players.

Is it different on mythic than on heroic? We just have a zone that people with the debuff go to so they can bump by the time stacks have built up. Perhaps it's just closer to where we tank the boss than where range usually stand. Our raid make up usually has more melee than ranged though either 4 vs 3 or 5 vs 4 depending on who shows up.

[Doffen]

It's important to note that having your dps suffer or not from doing mechanics doesn't mean you aren't doing mechanics if you can mantain your rotation. I'm not looking to turn this thread into a melee vs ranged dps show.

This is very true But if you have enough ranged/healers that can do these things its better to have melee on the bosses. Most of those are ranged mechanics, and putting melee on some of these tasks makes the raid suffer overall. Wich is the core in putting melee on bosses. I don't mind that its a more melee-friendly raid, its not many of those in the history of raiding.

The frost thing is weird though, could be that a ranged where to close. I would think that melee that gets hit by such abilities is more the exception though.

On Star Augur I would guess its because of how you stack.

[judgementofantonidas]

implying ranged has to move to dps orbs or has to take more then two steps to get out of collapse. i mean if you wanna take this argument all the way, ranged can be spread out more then melee which means they statiscially can avoid more collapses without moving at all all other things being equal.
if you rarely cant move tich to a pillar that means sometimes you cant dps, whereas ranged is always in range.

like seriously if you wanna argue its easier for melee then ranged at least pick a boss on which its obviously the case not one where its minor things at best.

read doffen's reply. at least he is honest about it.

[Fleckens]

Is it different on mythic than on heroic? We just have a zone that people with the debuff go to so they can bump by the time stacks have built up. Perhaps it's just closer to where we tank the boss than where range usually stand. Our raid make up usually has more melee than ranged though either 4 vs 3 or 5 vs 4 depending on who shows up.

No it's same mechanic on heroic, but yeah if you don't have enough ranged you will probably end up with it on melee, it's one of those fights that's not too well tuned for lower raid sizes. Luckily it doesn't last as long on heroic and there is no real dps check so it's not too big a deal with it going on melee, but on mythic you really don't want that to happen.