Thoughts on Templated PvP

[Tuskchi]

So hear me out about this bros ...

I've been doing pvp since Vanilla ... scratch that ... I LOVED wPvP in vanilla
Obviously things with each expansion have been getting worse and worse. I guess arena in TBC wasn't half bad, but then again, it proved that you can't balance classes around a 2v2 bracket. World PvP? Been gone for a while now ... I occasionally hit up some IF/SW sweetspot and go gank people, but rarely.

The last World PvP event that mattered and I participated in was a community driven one. On Ravenholdt EU before Cata launch the community organized fight nights for each of the old world zones, that would be forever lost in the Cataclysm. It was fking marvelous! =) Cheers to whomever came up with that idea ...
In the expansions that followed I tried the PvP, but it just wasn't there. Crap balance, only instanced environments and HUGE grind to get the PvP gear.

With Legion, Blizzard tried to remove the last part ... Well, on paper everything looked really good so I headed out to check it out. On my Monk I hit up to honor level 20, on my Warlock I hit level 10 ... It couldn't pull me in despite having a step into the right direction.

Then I leveled my rogue ... and holly crap did I start having fun in PvP ....=) I'm prestige 1 now and level 30 with, farming everyday my daily quests in FFA pvp zones and KoS everything in red ... In the process, now when I did a bunch of PvP, I'm going kinda backwords in this tempalted PvP. Not because it gives equal grounds, but just how they are tuned.

1) It's impossible to kill a healer in 1v1. As a rogue, I go and sit on them CC-ing them so they can't heal and hopefully my team wipes their dps. However, when they sit in the middle of their team you just get pummeled to death. So complete sacrifice for the team. This is all good, as long as your team isn't slacking and not killing anyone.

Is this to promote playing healers in BGs?

2) No Set bonuses, no Legendaries, no Engineering - WHY??

Okey, I get the no Legendaries part, as I'm very opened to what they do in wPvP ( haven't had a fight longer than 10 seconds ), but no set bonuses which mostly have PvE implications? No engineering which's sole purpose since Vanilla times have been to give PvP utility?

This is just annoying ...

So to end up, I'd allow engineering and set bonuses in instanced PvP, to give at least SOME fun to the people who have invested into them. What are your thoughts?


P.s. wPvP is god damn fun kinda can't believe I'm doing so much PvP in a LONG time ...

[Morg558]

Honestly it's proabbly the worst idea ive ever even heard of even worse than my spelling...gg

[Luckx]

WOTLK had Great Storyline,great quests and great class mechanics, but gearing system was pretty horrible (Cata gearing system wasnt much better)

Templates are good idea (they was introduec with WOD in low level bgs as Gear scaling), 101-109lvl bgs are pretty balanced because of them.

But templates itself are unbalanced, template system is fine, template stats on some classes is not fine = i.e i feel i like Rogues are easy kill for me in Bgs, especially when they have their main abils on 2-3min cd.

I mean some classes should get their template stats buffed or something.

[Nerovar]

Okey, I get the no Legendaries part, as I'm very opened to what they do in wPvP ( haven't had a fight longer than 10 seconds ), but no set bonuses which mostly have PvE implications? No engineering which's sole purpose since Vanilla times have been to give PvP utility?

This is just annoying ...

So to end up, I'd allow engineering and set bonuses in instanced PvP, to give at least SOME fun to the people who have invested into them. What are your thoughts?


P.s. wPvP is god damn fun kinda can't believe I'm doing so much PvP in a LONG time ...

Set bonuses are only obtainable by raiding so let me get this straight... You want PvE gear to be better for PvP than the gear you obtain by actually playing PvP?

Also world PvP is a complete mess because as you've already said.

( haven't had a fight longer than 10 seconds )

Using all cooldowns at once and oneshotting people is neither fun nor challenging. I sincerely hope this is just bait.

[Tuskchi]

Well PvE tier is obtainable through LFR (which is not raiding, but a 30min chore) also the bonuses have MINOR implications in PvP ... Getting a chance to get an additional combo point by using ShadowStrike on a Rupture'd target ...? Please ... it might matter on a 10min fight, but not on a 2-3min pvp engagement....

[Stormspellz]

rogue loving wpvp but can't kill healers 1v1, feel like i've seen this post before.

but eng in random bgs? sure, but heck no in anything rated.

[Kagthul]

but not on a 2-3min pvp engagement....

.... a rogue can literally global people in wPvP.

[Bearilla]

Set bonuses are only obtainable by raiding so let me get this straight... You want PvE gear to be better for PvP than the gear you obtain by actually playing PvP?

That is pretty much the case anyways, right? In order to gear and grind AP for the best benefit in PvP you are forced to PvE. It is not specifically gear based but it is affected by your ilvl. PvP gear had set bonuses. It was not ridiculous when there was PvP specific gear so why would it be ridiculous now?

If I never had to touch PvE outside of leveling (like it was before) I would be happy.

[YourHeroVir]

So hear me out about this bros ...

I've been doing pvp since Vanilla ... scratch that ... I LOVED wPvP in vanilla
Obviously things with each expansion have been getting worse and worse. I guess arena in TBC wasn't half bad, but then again, it proved that you can't balance classes around a 2v2 bracket. World PvP? Been gone for a while now ... I occasionally hit up some IF/SW sweetspot and go gank people, but rarely.

The last World PvP event that mattered and I participated in was a community driven one. On Ravenholdt EU before Cata launch the community organized fight nights for each of the old world zones, that would be forever lost in the Cataclysm. It was fking marvelous! =) Cheers to whomever came up with that idea ...
In the expansions that followed I tried the PvP, but it just wasn't there. Crap balance, only instanced environments and HUGE grind to get the PvP gear.

With Legion, Blizzard tried to remove the last part ... Well, on paper everything looked really good so I headed out to check it out. On my Monk I hit up to honor level 20, on my Warlock I hit level 10 ... It couldn't pull me in despite having a step into the right direction.

Then I leveled my rogue ... and holly crap did I start having fun in PvP ....=) I'm prestige 1 now and level 30 with, farming everyday my daily quests in FFA pvp zones and KoS everything in red ... In the process, now when I did a bunch of PvP, I'm going kinda backwords in this tempalted PvP. Not because it gives equal grounds, but just how they are tuned.

1) It's impossible to kill a healer in 1v1. As a rogue, I go and sit on them CC-ing them so they can't heal and hopefully my team wipes their dps. However, when they sit in the middle of their team you just get pummeled to death. So complete sacrifice for the team. This is all good, as long as your team isn't slacking and not killing anyone.

Is this to promote playing healers in BGs?

2) No Set bonuses, no Legendaries, no Engineering - WHY??

Okey, I get the no Legendaries part, as I'm very opened to what they do in wPvP ( haven't had a fight longer than 10 seconds ), but no set bonuses which mostly have PvE implications? No engineering which's sole purpose since Vanilla times have been to give PvP utility?

This is just annoying ...

So to end up, I'd allow engineering and set bonuses in instanced PvP, to give at least SOME fun to the people who have invested into them. What are your thoughts?


P.s. wPvP is god damn fun kinda can't believe I'm doing so much PvP in a LONG time ...

PvP Templates has made the battlegrounds and arena much better since it's more of a test of skill.

PvP Templates also led to PvE gear being way overtuned in WPvP. IMO: PvP gear rewards need to be better, so PvPers can participate in WQ and wPvP without getting crapped on by mythic raiders because Gear>Skill. Bring back some form of resilience even if it doesn't work in instanced PvP.

I do miss bringing my cool engineering stuff into battlegrounds, or making up crazy builds that excel in some part of PvP.....but I think the battleground/arena experience is better without it.

[Kryptoon]

I switched to a PvP server during WoTLK only for the fun of pvp awareness in the open world. What happened after templates is that WPvP is now full of pvers flexing around with their standard rotation, as with few exceptions everyone now dies within a stun.
Post Legion the only awareness needed is about GY locations.

[Deleted]

I like the idea of templates, i wish they were toned down a bit though, dps to be less bursty, and healers need toning down quite a bit too. Overall though, the templates are a really good idea imo, i wish there cosmetic rewards we could just purchase though, i still want to have something to work toward other than honor level.

WPvP on the other hand is horrible because of how much stronger pve gear is.

I do wish they would re-enable things like trinkets in bgs though, just the pvp trinkets, not the pve ones. I don't really understand why pvp gear effects is disabled in pvp.

[Jingoism]

It's shit, but I'll give them credit for trying something new.

[Kithelle]

The idea was good, the implementation wasn't. Plain and simple...

Plus if they're going to do it then they need to do it in world pvp as well...

[ComputerNerd]

Because PvE has opponent progression.
PvP does not.
It is not fun to be on the receiving end of simply better gear.
The impact absolutely was a lot more than some like to think it was.
Look at the expectations for dps for a mythic geared raider compared to a newly levelled player.
And that is due to gear, as shown by ilvl requirements for groups, due to the raised expectations.

The template system is NOT responsible for healers being "unkillable".
That is due to the design of healers, or the lack of tools for other specs.

My issue with the system is that it shouldn't have scaled at all.
It should be equal terms full stop.

World PvP is inherently unfair.
It has always been dominated the same way by gear, but not only by gear.
Faction imbalance etc.

instanced PvP is where the result is meant to mean something.
If you beat someone it should be because you were better, not because you had better gear.

[Kagthul]

Because PvE has opponent progression.
PvP does not.
It is not fun to be on the receiving end of simply better gear.
The impact absolutely was a lot more than some like to think it was.
Look at the expectations for dps for a mythic geared raider compared to a newly levelled player.
And that is due to gear, as shown by ilvl requirements for groups, due to the raised expectations.

The template system is NOT responsible for healers being "unkillable".
That is due to the design of healers, or the lack of tools for other specs.

My issue with the system is that it shouldn't have scaled at all.
It should be equal terms full stop.

World PvP is inherently unfair.
It has always been dominated the same way by gear, but not only by gear.
Faction imbalance etc.

instanced PvP is where the result is meant to mean something.
If you beat someone it should be because you were better, not because you had better gear.

And the closer and closer we get to that "dream" of yours, the smaller and smaller the PvP pool gets, and the worse the gameplay gets.

If you want a progression-less game, MOBAs are probably your thing.

[Kreeshak]

RPG have since the beginning of time, been about gearing up your character and choosing skills talents and stats.

Nowadays someone else chooses your skills talents and stats, as if you are playing an FPS.

[Omaski]

templates suck because they hinder customization. I used to love in MoP how i could gem/reforge/gear specifically for my playstyle where it could be mastery for damage in RBGs or versatility for defense-style in arenas (i am a ret pally), but now i cant do that because Blizz has decided every Ret must play with the same stats.

[Kreeshak]

And if I may add, you can't even practice your DPS rotation on a dummy anymore. With honor talents affecting damage and playstyle, and instanced gear being completely different than real world, you could very likely doing the wrong rotation inside an arena.

For certain PVE rotations might not be 100% accurate.

[Mafic]

Templates are dumb.

Just give everyone base line resilience and an HP bump. It accomplishes the same thing.

Then you tweak outlier spells specifically for PVP like they did in MoP/WoD.

- - - Updated - - -

Because PvE has opponent progression.
PvP does not.
It is not fun to be on the receiving end of simply better gear.
The impact absolutely was a lot more than some like to think it was.
Look at the expectations for dps for a mythic geared raider compared to a newly levelled player.
And that is due to gear, as shown by ilvl requirements for groups, due to the raised expectations.

The template system is NOT responsible for healers being "unkillable".
That is due to the design of healers, or the lack of tools for other specs.

My issue with the system is that it shouldn't have scaled at all.
It should be equal terms full stop.

World PvP is inherently unfair.
It has always been dominated the same way by gear, but not only by gear.
Faction imbalance etc.

instanced PvP is where the result is meant to mean something.
If you beat someone it should be because you were better, not because you had better gear.

Go play a MOBA.

What you stated runs counter to MMORPG elements for PVE and PVP.

[ComputerNerd]

Templates are dumb.

Just give everyone base line resilience and an HP bump. It accomplishes the same thing.

Then you tweak outlier spells specifically for PVP like they did in MoP/WoD.

- - - Updated - - -



Go play a MOBA.

What you stated runs counter to MMORPG elements for PVE and PVP.

The experience was not good for players coming in at any time after the start.
Try coming into PvP without the template to be faced with someone substantially better geared and performing significantly better as a result of that alone, let alone anything else.

Ignoring my argument with some "opinion" of what it runs counter to isn't helping yours.
Ignoring the real consequences of it.

Look at the dps expectations as you move up through difficulties of content, and it isn't some "small" amount.

And if I may add, you can't even practice your DPS rotation on a dummy anymore. With honor talents affecting damage and playstyle, and instanced gear being completely different than real world, you could very likely doing the wrong rotation inside an arena.

For certain PVE rotations might not be 100% accurate.

And if you think dummies are a good test of most encounters, then that shows how weak the argument is.
Dummies are not a good test of numbers, and never have been.
What they can do is show at best relative changes, not actual numbers.
PvP players are not dummies, and so a "rotation" is something not conducive to a PvP environment, so making them a completely unsuitable practice medium anyway.