Survival Hunter Club [7.2 Spec Discussion]

[TxCwby]

Time has told. If being the best-performing and least-legendary-dependent hunter spec for months didn't save the spec, nothing will.

Similar things were said or the Shaman way back when and look at it today....never can tell and certainly cannot tell from one expansion.

[jlee24219]

The difference between an optimally statted Survival with 2pc tier versus a fresh 110 is night and day. I know you could say that about alot of classes but Survival just doesn't function correctly without gear/stats. The closest example of another spec like this would be Ret, which also just doesn't work without the right levels of haste.

Our mastery controlling a proc rate on our main dmg ability is just horrible, it makes scaling the value of mastery so difficult because mastery gives so little on its own that its just not worth investing it at all. Our mastery will always either be worthless because you can't get enough to make the RNG better or too low value because the cap on 100% procs is so easy to reach that you just don't want any beyond a certain value.
For example if you swap from a BM spec with ~90% to Surv, using the same gear you get around 6-7% mastery. That makes such a minuscule difference to the volume of mongoose bites you get from pet attacks that you might as well have 0% mastery if your mastery is so low.
Now even adding that to flanking strike(double proc rate default) is also such a minor benefit, but when you add in the t19 2pc(triple proc rate) you suddenly get actual mastery breakpoints. Such as 16.76% mastery being 100% mongoose bites charges from flanking strike with the 2pc. So most people aim for 10-12% which is very achievable without sacrificing other stats.

Haste also has breakpoints, where you can gain additional GCDs inside the Mongoose fury window. With 28.6% being the ideal breakpoint to reach in order to get enough GCDs and the smoothest cooldowns on your main abilities. More is still good, but its a good goal to aim for.

Overall, the t19 2pc made Flanking Strike relevant and gave us a goal to shoot for with our mastery and thus gave it actual value as a reliable generator for mongoose strikes. Prior to this tier Flanking was relegated to a focus dump or even removed from people's bars in some cases. The loss of t19 will be a real negative for the spec.
With t20 they are pushing some interaction between mongoose and lacerate, which is a good start towards creating synergy between our mongoose windows and our multitude of debuffs/dots but in a world where mongoose gen goes back to being a bit more RNG I'm not sure hooking it into one of our dots is a great transition where mongoose drought will lead to the inability to capitalise on our tier bonuses.

Lastly the legendary situation paints a clear picture of the weird values on secondarys for Survival, the fact that the Healing Helm/Legs are basically the BiS leggos after the Bracers shows this. Survival just wants everything, we have no real set secondary values. We just want as must haste as possible, enough mastery for it to be worth a damn and then just pile on the crit/vers as high as we can without breaking our goals for haste/mastery. Pyrdaz, KJ trinket, Arcano etc. are all insane for us for the same reasons, Survival just need raw stats to prop up every part of the spec because it has so much going on and no real identity.

At the end of the day, Survival remains fun to play and is a functioning spec currently in terms of dmg output and raid viability but its definitely being held up by itemisation such as tier bonuses filling in holes that exist within the specs rotation and the lack of value on secondaries outside of "stack haste" is worrying for long term scaling.

Should one value the 2pc bonus over ilvl?

[MookieRah]

I wanna start a discussion about how others go about playing survival, as I have my doubts regarding a few things written about it on Icy-Veins. It's not that it's wrong, but it's just to generalized/vague and honestly... a bit poorly written. I've started changing my playstyle as I've gained more experience and I've seen a dps increase based off of that alone, and I'm sure others have done similar things so I'd like to hear them. Anyways, here are some things I'd like to get feedback on.

Fury of the Eagle Usage on single target:
Currently, I never use this ability to deal damage against a single target. Instead I use it to extend my mongoose fury by 4 seconds whenever I'm out of bites. I almost never get it extended beyond a few seconds due to Mok'Nathal, but it carries me over long enough so that I might end up getting a few extra bites out of that particular fury window. Is this a good idea though? I haven't bothered to actually check the damage of FotE on a single target, but I can't imagine it doing more than a few extra 6 stack bites.

Butchery use in Mythic+ / Trash clearing:
I used to just jump into the center of trash and blow through all 3 charges of butchery and then proceed from there, but it pretty much neuters the rest of my aoe damage on the next pull. I now open with a single butchery and then drop down my traps, and then go for a second. From there I conserve it, to some extent, so that I can retain a consistent amount of aoe dps for every pull. Obviously, if they are tougher mobs or a larger pool one should dump everything you got on them, but for the most part this certainly *feels* better, and my damage doesn't see saw every other pull.

[Mamut]

This is a great resource for Survival. (Tip: Use tabs along the top)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...PsBX6U/pubhtml

Unfortunately with AP farming being a thing again, I haven't really had any time to play Survival. When I start to hit the AP wall on BM I'll go back and work on SV a bit, although I was hoping we'd see some blue comments on Survival ahead of 7.2.5 considering its a brand new spec and I'd like to know what Blizz think of it in terms of performance and usability.

Thx dude for the link, its exactly what i was loking fore. Im leveling now my hunter alt and I really wanna try survival spec when I hit 110. For some reason looks more fun than my current melee main. Too bad cant atm switch mains due progressing in NH mythic

[ohgasauraus]

What do you guys think of new legendary ring that switch from Animal Instinct to Serpent Sting?

[Beardymess]

What do you guys think of new legendary ring that switch from Animal Instinct to Serpent Sting?

Might be quite nice for M+, but i think in raid environments you want to take other legendarys..think its a nerf compared to having both AI and WotM

[Eapoe]

Might be quite nice for M+, but i think in raid environments you want to take other legendarys..think its a nerf compared to having both AI and WotM

I have to agree with this. It will be awesome for m+ but fall behind in raids. DFG is getting a slight buff if I remember the blue post correctly, but adds a completely new button to an already bloated spec. The only way to offset that is if we stop taking Caltrops and replace it with DFG and Guerilla Tactics, and that's if the damage compensates and becomes a buff overall for ST. For AoE/Cleave raid fights and dungeon runs, having Butchery is sure to be a nice combination from the ring.

[Trapstarz]

New change for the 4p :
Item - Hunter T20 Survival 4P Bonus
Mongoose Bite deals 10% increased damage to targets bleeding from your Lacerate.

FeelsOkMan

[Eapoe]

New change for the 4p :
Item - Hunter T20 Survival 4P Bonus
Mongoose Bite deals 10% increased damage to targets bleeding from your Lacerate.

FeelsOkMan

This was to be expected, with how much damage our MB does without an increase, 30% seemed pretty high. Just glad they are adjusting it on PTR instead of waiting until live to get numbers tweaked.

[Khrux]

The ring change is pretty nice, you get a "best of both worlds" effect by having the powerful bursty AoE of butchery with the strong ST consistency of Serpent Sting. The Ai/Mok combination was slightly counterproductive as they are more playstyle choices between those talents and both don't really work together that well and added additional complexity to the spec in terms of very tight focus management.

I don't think the Ring will be BiS regardless of the change, but I think its alot better in this new incarnation.

Love the Survival t20, its a straight up passive dmg increase for just maintaining our primary dot. Simple, effective and powerful.

[Raxz]

I am trying to get TellMeWhen to pop an icon when the duration of Way of the Mok'Nathal is almost up but it doesn't actually do it. What's wrong with my settings?

[Eapoe]

Anyone's have any updates if we'll still be running 2 t19? Wondering with the nerf if we're going to need 15% or more for it to be the next softcap or if we're just supposed to say f it and go back to running snake hunter.

[Deleted]

Anyone's have any updates if we'll still be running 2 t19? Wondering with the nerf if we're going to need 15% or more for it to be the next softcap or if we're just supposed to say f it and go back to running snake hunter.

If we're still gonna be using 2pT19 then Blizzard is gonna nerf it regardless

[Eapoe]

If we're still gonna be using 2pT19 then Blizzard is gonna nerf it regardless

It's already nerfed on PTR and for 7.2.5 changes. Most classes are getting a 2P nerf for t19, but some are still stating viable.

[Deleted]

I am trying to get TellMeWhen to pop an icon when the duration of Way of the Mok'Nathal is almost up but it doesn't actually do it. What's wrong with my settings?

You have "missing buffs/debuffs" when it should be the one above called just "buffs/debuffs".

[Raxz]

You have "missing buffs/debuffs" when it should be the one above called just "buffs/debuffs".

I actually figured it out a while ago and the issue was not only that but the buff is not actually called the same thing as the talent. The buff is called "Mok'Nathal Tactics" lol.

Thanks anyway.

[Karzakk]

For some reason looks more fun than my current melee main.

That's because it is, SV is such an incredibly designed spec, so much fun to play.

[MookieRah]

It's not that incredibly designed xD, but it is a lot of fun. It's better designed than people are complaining about it, but there are a lot of small fixes/optimizations it needs before it would qualify as *incredibly designed*. I honestly find it less clunky than BM though.

Honestly, if Blizz was smart they would buff the spec to being slightly OP, just to get people to actually try it. The fact that it is more or less in line with the other Hunter specs means that people would choose those over it. So few people have given the class a chance, a vast majority of those complaining haven't bothered putting in the time to learn the spec.

[Deleted]

Got a quick question.
On Icy veins they they you should enchant with haste mostly, although on noxxic they say it escalates better with versatility? Can someone help here?

[Khrux]

Noxxic is largely considered a poor site for class guides, Icy veins is much more reliable and is pretty much accurate for Survival at the moment.

Haste is the #1 secondary stat for Survival followed by mastery to a certain point(around 12% or so with t19 2pc) and after that crit/vers are about equal. Haste provides reduced cooldowns on major skills such as Mongoose Bite and Flanking Strike, plus increases pet atk speed which interacts with mastery so its by far Survival's best stat and doesn't really have a cap. There is however various breakpoints that give you more GCDs during Mongoose Fury windows.

I share this google doc alot, but its a dedicated survival document made by contributors that actively play Survival and have done all expansion. It should cover everything you need to know about Survival and should be up to date as of 7.2 (not 7.2.5 yet, so doesn't include new leggos or tier)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...sBX6U/pubhtml#