Ashes of Creation - new open world MMORPG

[Eleccybubb]

Black Desert is doing well in the west, on Steam alone it has like 15k average concurrent users and you can likely double that number with non steam users. Maybe it's just me but I would say 30k active players is more than meh. Even if I don't think it deserves so many.
he said "yeah because new mmos do so well" Yeah ESO had to change but it is still doing well regardless.

If he was only talking about sub games than my bad he should have clarified better.

Idk, I don't think assuming every new mmo will be an automatic failure is a healthy attitude to have. Not saying that is you, but still.

Black Desert is doing so-so in the West. 30k isn't something to write home about. It's not bad but it's not good.

And? It still means an MMO had to change from the cesspit it was to get anywhere decent.

Considering the past results of the majority of MMOs in terms of quality I don't see any issue with the assumption. There are way more that have done bad than have done good. Or ones that were good and went to shit like SWTOR and Rift.

[TriHard]

I was going to back this way back but decided not to as I didn't want another Star Citizen case. But I am very pleasantly surprised that Intrepid managed to deliver over and over again. So while I now regret not backing it, the game is still years away from releasing, hopefully they'll keep at it.

[ryanmahaffe]

Black Desert is doing so-so in the West. 30k isn't something to write home about. It's not bad but it's not good.

And? It still means an MMO had to change from the cesspit it was to get anywhere decent.

Considering the past results of the majority of MMOs in terms of quality I don't see any issue with the assumption. There are way more that have done bad than have done good. Or ones that were good and went to shit like SWTOR and Rift.

Assuming that every single mmorpg will be garbage and DOA is an unhealthy attitude to have, being cautious is better than being pessimistic. At least in my opinion. I actively discourage people from pre ordering or overhyping this game just as much as I would discourage those from saying it isn't even worth checking out because "all mmorpgs die"

SWtor and RIFT? Well Swtor was in the hands of the worst publisher ever and wasn't even doing that awful when it went f2p. RIFT also wasn't doing that bad when it went f2p but they thought they could make more money with the model change, of course both games fell to greed. Both are really sad cases honestly as I think both were excellent.

Just saying I would rather be optimistic, I am not looking forward to Crowfall but I won't tell anyone "ugh why bother with that trash it's gonna be DOA"

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I was going to back this way back but decided not to as I didn't want another Star Citizen case. But I am very pleasantly surprised that Intrepid managed to deliver over and over again. So while I now regret not backing it, the game is still years away from releasing, hopefully they'll keep at it.

Target release is before 2020. Will they hit that? Well i'm not sure, ahead of schedule with Alpha 1 doesn't mean they won't hit roadblocks in the future, but a 2019 release would be neato.

[Kyanion]

You are quite literally making stuff up now, I never said any of those things. Personally like many new mmorpgs I am cautiously optimistic. I think the only releases or recently released titles I had/have literally no faith in were Bless Online, Ascent: Infinite Realm, Crowfall, and some other Korean mmos people want westernized.

Anyway, Mmorpgs in the past few years that are doing well
Elder Scrolls Onlione
Black Desert
Guild Wars 2
FFXIV

These are all very successful, then you have ones that aren't massive but still have active updates and CCUs like Blade and Soul or Trove.

Now don't twist that (I know you will) I am aware that most new mmorpgs die or only have very small niche populations, but every few years one comes out and retains it's players, the mmorpg genre is in a stale spot right now with a lot of refuggees looking for something new to play. Will Ashes retain subs? I don't fucking know, it might. Will Ashes die? I don't fucking know, it might.

Compared to other pre alpha mmorpgs in the past few does Ashes have significant hype behind it? Yes it does.

First of all, what hype? This game is not hyped. I am not 'cautiously optimistic' about a game with a pyramid scheme runner backing it. I am staying the hell away unless it manages to survive a month without being a total train wreck. Many games launch and are dead within a month (wildstar). I just don't think they have the money behind it to put out a good enough project either. These are very expensive projects to create/design and launch an MMO and I don't see enough here.

There is just not much hype for this game despite you saying otherwise.

[TriHard]

Assuming that every single mmorpg will be garbage and DOA is an unhealthy attitude to have, being cautious is better than being pessimistic. At least in my opinion. I actively discourage people from pre ordering or overhyping this game just as much as I would discourage those from saying it isn't even worth checking out because "all mmorpgs die"

SWtor and RIFT? Well Swtor was in the hands of the worst publisher ever and wasn't even doing that awful when it went f2p. RIFT also wasn't doing that bad when it went f2p but they thought they could make more money with the model change, of course both games fell to greed. Both are really sad cases honestly as I think both were excellent.

Just saying I would rather be optimistic, I am not looking forward to Crowfall but I won't tell anyone "ugh why bother with that trash it's gonna be DOA"

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Target release is before 2020. Will they hit that? Well i'm not sure, ahead of schedule with Alpha 1 doesn't mean they won't hit roadblocks in the future, but a 2019 release would be neato.

They've been keeping their promises thus far, so I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Kyanion]

SWtor and RIFT? Well Swtor was in the hands of the worst publisher ever and wasn't even doing that awful when it went f2p. RIFT also wasn't doing that bad when it went f2p but they thought they could make more money with the model change, of course both games fell to greed. Both are really sad cases honestly as I think both were excellent.

I mean are we just handwaving away them going F2P as 'not doing that awful'. The amount of money behind those games and how fast they had to change things up is a big fucking red flag. This game does not have NEARLY the money behind it those did. That is why I'm not expecting a damn thing.

[ryanmahaffe]

I mean are we just handwaving away them going F2P as 'not doing that awful'. The amount of money behind those games and how fast they had to change things up is a big fucking red flag. This game does not have NEARLY the money behind it those did. That is why I'm not expecting a damn thing.

Swtor still had hundreds of thousands of subs when it changed IIRC but the expenses were just too high, you have to remember that Swtor was one of the most expensive games ever at the time so even with hundreds of thousands of subs it just wasn't turning a profit.

[Kyanion]

Swtor still had hundreds of thousands of subs when it changed IIRC but the expenses were just too high, you have to remember that Swtor was one of the most expensive games ever at the time so even with hundreds of thousands of subs it just wasn't turning a profit.

What I'm telling you is that many MMOs fail for a reason. If you think a game is going to try to come out and launch with a sub fee and hope to make it, well unless it is a major company backing it...it isn't happening.

[ryanmahaffe]

What I'm telling you is that many MMOs fail for a reason. If you think a game is going to try to come out and launch with a sub fee and hope to make it, well unless it is a major company backing it...it isn't happening.

It all depends on the money put in, EA backed Swtor and put a massive amount of money behind it, and because of that they needed massive sub numbers to even break even. If Ashes has a modest budget with a smaller dev team (100ish) then I think 200k-300k subs would be okay with them and would be an active enough community. I am 100% in agreement that the sub fee is not the best option. I think Gw2 but with an optional sub would have been the best bet, but I am willing to give them a chance as I do all mmos, because I don't want them to fail and will support them if I can.
Besides pre ordering of course.

[Kyanion]

because I don't want them to fail and will support them if I can.

I don't see the point in shoveling money into something that is likely to fail. If it releases and does okay then sure maybe. But I'm done buying/sub fee paying to new MMOs that don't have a good thing going. Played too many MMOs that don't make it out of the first month with me because I have a high bar set when it comes to them.

[Grable]

Published by MY.com in Europe. LOL

Steven promises "no pay2win" without any specifics, that term being so vague by itself means anything might happen with the cash shop.

[klepp0906]

I think no game at all regardless how it's funded should use a sub model at this point.

There is a reason why most MMORPGs with a subscription model ended up dropping it...

if a game isnt pay 2 play, i wont touch it with someone elses keyboard. that will never change. everyone wants something for nothing nowadays. Are you unable to see the tradeoffs and sacrifices made? Or compare f2p games to their sub counterparts objectively?

Or not see the value in how much you gain in paying a paltry 15 dollars a month? That would be 1 movie, 1 night, for ~1hour. Or all day and all night, wheneve ryou want, for an entire month.

entertainment value per dollar, its not beatable by anything im aware of.

[Tuhokoura]

It is going to fail like every other mmo except minor ones that have couple thousand loyal players. Wow is too big in the west.

[Pachycrocuta]

I mean are we just handwaving away them going F2P as 'not doing that awful'. The amount of money behind those games and how fast they had to change things up is a big fucking red flag. This game does not have NEARLY the money behind it those did. That is why I'm not expecting a damn thing.

Rift went f2p because of Trion's dumbass mistakes by extending themselves too far and sinking money into failures. End of Nations and Defiance fucked Trion over, and they figured going f2p with Rift would give them the money they needed. And then they added Trove, ArcheAge, and Atlas Reactor. At the start of f2p, it wasn't bad. But then they got greedy. But they wanted that sweet sweet whale money.

I agree with ryanmahaffe. Saying that the game is going to die so you won't even touch it just makes it a "self-fulfilling prophecy". Just like with so many of the MMORPGs released. And many that do play it go in with the expectations that it will have the same content of WoW after 14 years, rush to end game (which many games typically don't have as they erroneously thought people wouldn't rush full speed to the end), they complain, quit, and kill a promising game if they would have just given the devs some damn time to make more for the game.

[Kyanion]

Rift went f2p because of Trion's dumbass mistakes by extending themselves too far and sinking money into failures. End of Nations and Defiance fucked Trion over, and they figured going f2p with Rift would give them the money they needed. And then they added Trove, ArcheAge, and Atlas Reactor. At the start of f2p, it wasn't bad. But then they got greedy. But they wanted that sweet sweet whale money.

I agree with ryanmahaffe. Saying that the game is going to die so you won't even touch it just makes it a "self-fulfilling prophecy". Just like with so many of the MMORPGs released. And many that do play it go in with the expectations that it will have the same content of WoW after 14 years, rush to end game (which many games typically don't have as they erroneously thought people wouldn't rush full speed to the end), they complain, quit, and kill a promising game if they would have just given the devs some damn time to make more for the game.

Rift went F2P just beyond money mismanagement. They made many changes in that game that killed interest by the playerbase. Tons of changes early on to souls just killed the fun of a lot of playstyles and was one of the reasons I noped out of that game really quickly.

I've seen nothing in this game to generate any hype or think this game is going to make it. Sorry, like many other games you get a set amount of time to show me you have what it takes to stick around, if I'm paying a sub fee on top of that? You get 1 month. Many MMOs fail to offer enough to do at the end game or they make stupid mistakes like Wildstar and have so much gated behind needless grinds that make it boring as hell.

[Rogalicus]

Or not see the value in how much you gain in paying a paltry 15 dollars a month? That would be 1 movie, 1 night, for ~1hour. Or all day and all night, wheneve ryou want, for an entire month.

It's not a good argument, $15 is also a quarter of full-priced game or even several full games during sales. Most of it is also spent on redoing the same little content pool for the umpteenth time just to have a chance at doing something fun. Most single player or short session multiplayer games have much better rate of fun to time spent in game.

[Kyanion]

As an active World of Warcraft player and as someone you spent over a thousand hours into Final Fantasy 14, I can't stop myself from laughing at your silly assumptions.

No dude, none of that shit is my fucking point, don't be ridiculous.

Right? I think most of us have no problem shelling out 15 dollars a month for something we feel is worthy. The amount of entertainment we get for the money is amazing. But even so it feels freaking terrible to think you are wasting money on a shit game. I've played way too many MMOs that suck ass out of the gate. The worst is buying to get the game and then having a sub fee on top of it (though most give you the first month free).

[ryanmahaffe]

I don't see the point in shoveling money into something that is likely to fail. If it releases and does okay then sure maybe. But I'm done buying/sub fee paying to new MMOs that don't have a good thing going. Played too many MMOs that don't make it out of the first month with me because I have a high bar set when it comes to them.

Yeah it was an odd thing to say I guess because I haven't put a dime into this game yet, but I meant support the devs by following and giving feedback. If you have a high bar that no mmos can reach that is unfortunate, usually it depends on the mmo for me, the team, the theme, ect ect.

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Published by MY.com in Europe. LOL

Steven promises "no pay2win" without any specifics, that term being so vague by itself means anything might happen with the cash shop.

The pay to win fear should not be a main concern. Let's just assume the shop is exactly like WoWs, absolutely no p2w, just cosmetics.
My.com is STILL a seemingly bad choice. In the past they have had bad server stability and bad account security. According to Intrepid they chose My.com becuase they were the only publisher commited (contractually now) to make AoC their absolute #1 priority. It doesn't change the fact they are a shit publisher.

Hopefully they can get their act together.

[Kyanion]

Yeah it was an odd thing to say I guess because I haven't put a dime into this game yet, but I meant support the devs by following and giving feedback. If you have a high bar that no mmos can reach that is unfortunate, usually it depends on the mmo for me, the team, the theme, ect ect.

Sure I could understand providing feedback and giving info that might help them make a better game but my big issue is the looming 'pyramid scheme' background the person involved with the game has. Not touching that one.

[ryanmahaffe]

Sure I could understand providing feedback and giving info that might help them make a better game but my big issue is the looming 'pyramid scheme' background the person involved with the game has. Not touching that one.

Eh whatever he did in the past doesn't concern me too much as I don't have much reason not to trust the 100 other people at Intrepid. He also has a lot of money to help fund the game.