The Sunreavers betrayed Dalaran... AGAIN [SPOILERS]

[Arrashi]

Funny. You say "sunreavers consist mostly of traitors". Yet they've only had THREE traitors. Just 3. More than 2, less than 4.

The Church of Holy Light not only has had also 3 named traitors, but also countless unnamed traitors as well that serve as random troops for the Twilight Hammer (Neither the Black Bishop, nor Benedictus, nor Farthing were alone when confronted, they all had their cadres of followers taken FROM the church).

Yet apparently, 3 is now more than 3+dozens.

3 doesn't equal 3 if you are comparing population of a country to a local sports team.

[Nnyco]

so by that logic alliance is alligned with void (Benedictus and more) aswell as the legion (Cordana and more)

better kick em out too

[Better]

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Purge_of_Dalaran#Notes

" Jaina imprisoned him within the Citadel and began mobilising the Silver Covenant"
The blood of anybody killed by the Silver Covenant is directly on Jaina's hands. She gave them authority, and therefor killed an unknown number of completely innocent people.

CTRL-F for bug.

One random level 23 worgen claiming it was a bug with no source. I mean I guess that counts as a source now?

[Derah]

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17347367888

CTRL-F for bug.

That was a regular player (Not even an MVP). I'm still not seeing OFFICIAL evidence that Jaina murdering 2 elves in cold blood was a bug.

I'm not specifically saying I don't believe you, if you provide me with tangible proof that this is the case I WILL eat my own words. But the post of a regular common user, doesn't hold much water. I can easily say something equally ludicrous, like Nazgrim backhanding Anduin on the Jade Forest, which did happen BTW (Basically a grown ass man slapping an unarmed teenager who was in no way a threat to him) was a bug. But I don't. Cuz that'd be silly.

Before I address the second half of your post, I really REALLY would like you to address my refutal though. I'm really not trying to be a troll, or even antagonistic. But you said, very specifically, that Aethas was attempting to cover up yet another betrayal in 7.2 and I offered a very solid refutal that you still haven't countered. (Namely that you only find out about that betrayal because HE COMES TO YOU, and he is NOT asking you to look the other way or ignore it. He's asking you to punish the traitor discreetly because otherwise, innocent people will suffer for actions that were unrelated to them)

Now that I go that out of the way, your second point....

After imprisoning Aethas within the Violet Citadel, Jaina and her water elementals took to patrolling the city streets, teleporting Sunreaver citizens to the Violet Hold and doing battle with those that attempted to fight her.

She still acted in the wrong. People attacked her, because the last time a human ordered every elf in Dalaran to march into the Violet Hold for no crime at all, it was to mass execute them (This was Garithos in Warcraft 3). I asked you, a few pages back, if a SWAT team arrests you, throws you in guantanamo, and sentences you to death row without a trial, for no reason at all, then someone helps you escape, the government apologizes and gives you a pardon, but then 10 years later, another SWAT team AGAIN tries to arrest you, and throw you in guantanamo, despite once again DOING NO CRIME AT ALL, would YOU go willingly?

I asked you this.

You ignored the question.

The elves had a right to refuse to march to jail. They did not commit any crime that justified incarceration.

Also, Jaina is not Queen of Dalaran. It wasn't in her authority to single-handedly expel or incarcerate an entire third of the population of dalaran by her lonesome. Aethas was a member of the council too, which meant he had every bit as much authority as Jaina did, and was fully authorized to tell her to go fuck herself. If Jaina truly wanted to expel the sunreavers from dalaran she SHOULD have called for a meeting of the Council and submit the whole thing to a vote. Confronted with the votes of the rest of the council THEN would Aethas be forced to obey, and any disobedience from his part would result in justified violence.

That is not what happened here.

Notice how Khadgar did not unilaterally brought the horde back into dalaran by his lonesome. He submitted the whole thing to a vote. Because dalaran is not a monarchy. It has no King, no Queen, no supreme authority.

Jaina acted like a violent, warmongering dictator when she decided to enact the purge. And then even if she herself showed restraint when dealing with the elves, she showed ZERO oversight of her forces. Do the horde version and look at what the Silver Convenant were doing the sewers please. They were beating up unarmed civilians, one was even feeding defenceless prisoners to the Dalaran Shark.

[Daevelian]

Hey, I'm not accusing YOU specifically of wanting all of the sunreavers punished.

I got it that your beef is exclusively with Aethas. And I already provided you with a retort that you still have not countered (You said "in 7.2 he's trying to cover up another betrayal". I countered with "You only find out about that betrayal because HE COMES TO YOU. And he's NOT asking you to look the other way, he's asking you to help him punish the traitor discreetly so that innocent people don't get dragged into it".)

You have still failed to provide a counter to THAT retort. Instead going back to a discussion several pages back.

Hey, its okay to admit you're stumped, but don't go pointing fingers at others and calling them zealots when you run out of arguments to defend your crappy reasoning.

Clearly we have different interpretations of this then. Past actions lead me to never trust this incompetent elf while you seem eager to give him the benefit of the doubt. As i said before, the man comes across as nothing but a slimy, sleazy self serving moron who would rather take care of an issue himself, keeping it secret while buttering up the archmage to garner their trust and theirs alone. Or, you know, he could prove his undeniable loyalty to the kirin tor by taking this incident directly to the council and turning them in, proving his loyalty instead of going behind their backs to solve the issue.

Should this be discovered at a later date by the council, the situation will be worse off due to his lack of trust in them and his eagerness to cover things up (for likely personal protection).

But hey, this is just the way i see it.

Dude is obviously a dreadlord in disguise, probably chuckling to himself as he plants more distrust in Jaina amongst the kirin tor.

And hey, i never directly called you a zealot, i said that proving a point to you is like proving a point to a religious zealot who uses "faith" as an argument. You know, someone so set in their ways that they refuse to accept any counterpoint as valid while touting their own concepts as absolute. Which.... i guess could be a roundabout way of calling you a blood elf zealot? Iunno, this entire zealot thing is a mess. Also gonna add, i am choosing to ignore the death row bit, as no elf who was sent to the hold was put on death row unless found guilty. So.... find a better comparison yeah?

Edit: While trying to fix a typo i deleted half this post, if you have it quoted, cool, if not, whatever. It was just an answer to the stupidly over the top guantanamo question anyways.

[Better]

If i knew i was innocent, yes, yes i would go willingly. My innocence would eventually be proven and all would be well. Even though your example there is one HELL of a stretch, relating Jaina and the silver covenant to what is obviously a corrupt police organisation specifically targetting you as a scapegoat.

You do know the Silver Covenant is like... stupidly racist, right? I HAVE to assume you haven't seen the horde side of that quest. You even linked a source that says; "while some Silver Covenant opportunists took the chance to rob, attack, and otherwise harass the civilians of their political rivals." This wasn't just a normal "I'll get the guards to help me arrest these guys." It was "I'll get people who HATE these people with a passion, and we'll wrangle em up, and what happens happens."

[Daevelian]

You do know the Silver Covenant is like... stupidly racist, right? I HAVE to assume you haven't seen the horde side of that quest. You even linked a source that says; "while some Silver Covenant opportunists took the chance to rob, attack, and otherwise harass the civilians of their political rivals." This wasn't just a normal "I'll get the guards to help me arrest these guys." It was "I'll get people who HATE these people with a passion, and we'll wrangle em up, and what happens happens."

Using a SWAT team that chucks you in prison and bypasses straight to death row is quite a stretch from that though. What you see there is assholes taking advantage of the chaos, not a corrupt organisation turning you into a scapegoat.

[Deleted]

First 7.2 mage quest Aethas tells you someone let the Legion into Dalaran. If you ask him to explain, he tells you this.



I mean this was bound to happen. Of course they can't be trusted. Should've killed them all when we had the chance, along with the rest of the Horde scum.

Inb4 "Alliance and Horde need to unite to defeat the Legion"

What's the point of uniting with people who will end up cooperating with the Legion?

You're right, we need to wipe out the alliance:P

[Derah]

Also gonna add, i am choosing to ignore the death row bit, as no elf who was sent to the hold was put on death row unless found guilty. So.... find a better comparison yeah?

You need to play Warcraft 3.

In that game, a human named Garithos, decides to imprison every single blood elf into the Violet Hold, despite them having done ZERO crimes whatsoever. The elves willingly went to Jail, under the same misguided assumption you made that "because I know I'm innocent, justice will prevail".

It did not prevail. They were going to die, and would have been executed by the hundreds if not for the Naga helping them escape. Later they were given an apology from Dalaran, and a pardon, and were welcome back once the city was rebuilt (it got destroyed during the third war)

Now here we are, a mere 20 years later (Which is the blink of an eye for a multi-century living race like an elf) and another human is telling them AGAIN to march into the Violet Hold, for crimes they've not committed. Of course they're gonna refuse.

Clearly we have different interpretations of this then. Past actions lead me to never trust this incompetent elf while you seem eager to give him the benefit of the doubt. As i said before, the man comes across as nothing but a slimy, sleazy self serving moron who would rather take care of an issue himself, keeping it secret while buttering up the archmage to garner their trust and theirs alone. Or, you know, he could prove his undeniable loyalty to the kirin tor by taking this incident directly to the council and turning them in, proving his loyalty instead of going behind their backs to solve the issue.

Should this be discovered at a later date by the council, the situation will be worse off due to his lack of trust in them and his eagerness to cover things up (for likely personal protection).

But hey, this is just the way i see it.

If he takes this matter publicly, there will be plenty of people like many others in this thread, calling for ALL of the sunreavers to pay for the actions of a single member. He chose to take care of it discreetly to avoid innocent people getting harmed.

As for you seeing him as self-serving, absolutely nothing screams more of Self-sacrifice than when he was willing to take the full brunt of Jaina's anger just to protect the elves in pandaria from Garrosh.

Notice how if he had chosen to stop the theft, HE would have been unharmed. Nothing would have happened to him. Its not like Garrosh would (or could) assassinate him in Dalaran. He would not risk expulsion, he would not risk incarceration. But a lot of his people would die.

Rather than take the safe path that ensured nothing bad happened to HIM(Stopping the theft), he instead chose to take the risky path(Allowing the theft), angering jaina, and putting himself in harms way, just to protect the lives of people who didn't even live in dalaran, and were therefore not his responsibility.

If that's your definition of Self-serving............. well I guess we learned english in different places (English is not my main language)

Should this be discovered at a later date by the council, the situation will be worse off due to his lack of trust in them and his eagerness to cover things up (for likely personal protection).

Yeah, I agree, if this is discovered later on, a lot of people wont be happy about it, but he had good reasons to not wanting to go public about this. Public tensions are still to raw after the whole divine bell incident. Exposing what happened right now WILL lead to innocent people being hurt by it. And he's preventing it from happening, while still doing something about the traitor, he's not looking the other way this time.

proving his loyalty instead of going behind their backs to solve the issue.

The thing is, he DOES prove his loyalty. Remember, the only reason you even find out about this is because HE COMES TO YOU. He could have kept quiet. Instead of keeping this to himself, and dealing with it by himself, letting NOBODY ever know what happened, he instead chooses to trust the Archmage of Tirisgarde with it, proving that he has absolutely zero intentions of letting any betrayals go unpunished THIS time. The reason he goes to the Archmage instead of the Council, is because the Archmage proved already to have a cooler head. The rest of the council had to be persuaded to let the Sunreavers back into the city. The Archmage took the initiative to help make it happen.

IF you wanna interpret this as "buttering up the archmage", well that's your prerogative, but I see it as him trusting someone he knows wont overreact to this, he's trusting someone he knows wont blame the rest of the sunreavers for the actions of a few. You can't deny that Aethas doesn't exactly have a lot of allies in Dalaran. Pretty much his only friends are Modera and the Archmage. And you can bet that after Aethas is elevated to Champion of Tirisgarde, Modera likely knows about the betrayer too. (I'll be doing the mage campaign eventually to confirm this)

[Better]

Using a SWAT team that chucks you in prison and bypasses straight to death row is quite a stretch from that though. What you see there is assholes taking advantage of the chaos, not a corrupt organisation turning you into a scapegoat.

Largely the victims of the purge were just scapegoats. That VAST majority of them had literally nothing to do with anything that had happened. Jaina was just pissed off, and used authority she didn't actually have to basically take over Dalaran. Later to be overthrown, democratically, by Khadgar.

[Derah]

Using a SWAT team that chucks you in prison and bypasses straight to death row is quite a stretch from that though.

Nope. That's exactly what happened in Warcraft 3, which I am now assuming you haven't played.

You should play it. its a really good game.

What you see there is assholes taking advantage of the chaos, not a corrupt organisation turning you into a scapegoat

Ohh really? so all those UNARMED CIVILIANS in the sewers being tortured, and the unarmed civilians being fed to a fucking shark, were not turned into scapegoats? Beating up people, and feeding them to sharks when you were ordered only to arrest them doesn't make you corrupt? come on man :S

[DJ117]

Amagad please. One Muslim does not represent the entire... Woooppps.

[Daevelian]

Too many things to quote. The answer is yes, i have played WC3, and really, while Garithos WAS an asshole, he also took the right course of action when he imprisoned Kael'thas. Remember, from his perspective he returns to find the naga leaving after having had a meeting with the blood elves, the naga being known hostiles at that point in time. It's like complaining you were chucked in gaol because you were caught leaving a meeting with known criminals AFTER having helped them.

And again, people seem to think that assholes being assholes represents a faction as a whole, no wonder the horde is what it is... This is almost as bad as those yanks calling their own police force corrupt because of the actions of a few assholes.

[Evangeliste]

I do love people who take every face value, when the entire lore, game, characters have whole agenda's that definitely not face value.
So what a single Sunreaver betrayed Dalaran, there's dozens of other characters who did far-fucking-worse. Queen Azshara doomed the entire future from that moment she accepted Legion in her life in lust for power. Wouldn't need Kirin Tor in the same way if she hadn't.

Yes, Jaina was right in that there will be friction and bad juju but isn't it odd that someone who is potentially evil, willingly admits who the culprit is? Legion will do anything to cause a fracture between any form of unity, it's so they can achieve their goal in taking Azeroth over.

[The One Percent]

You think there are no Legion cultists or demons in disguise in the Alliance? You must be very smart.

[Derah]

Too many things to quote. The answer is yes, i have played WC3, and really, while Garithos WAS an asshole, he also took the right course of action when he imprisoned Kael'thas. Remember, from his perspective he returns to find the naga leaving after having had a meeting with the blood elves, the naga being known hostiles at that point in time.

/frown.

He was attempting to kill the blood elves with the classic "Uriah Gambit".(*) When the elves received aid from the Naga, he decides this justifies throwing them all in jail and Mass executing them?

Do you realize what you're saying? The elves were justified to be imprisioned and sent to death row, because they refused to die? Seriously? :S

Kael already explained to Garithos that the naga represented no threat, and that they saved their lives. Garithos responded by withdrawing all support from the elves, and expected them to fend off the entirety of the scourge alone (AKA: To die). When the elves receive aid again, he decides that the best course of action is to throw them all into the violet hold, and execute them all without trial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxSJbN3dnCk

(At the 0:20 second mark. "It'll all be over soon, traitor. Lord Garithos plans to execute the lot of you at dawn.")

And again, people seem to think that assholes being assholes represents a faction as a whole, no wonder the horde is what it is...

Correction: This is the attitude the alliance has with the horde, not the other way around. The blood elves are simply NOT going to willingly march into the Violet Hold again, just because a human says so. And as I covered above, Jaina didn't have the authority to order them to jail anyways. She's not the Queen of Dalaran, she does not rule unilaterally. She was a member of a council of which Aethas was a member too, and he had as much authority as her. She should have submitted the whole thing to a vote with the rest of the council.

Instead, she chose to play violent warmongering dictator, siccing corrupt guards who began to abuse their prisoners (Again, do the horde side, watch them beating defenceless civilians and feeding them to sharks ALIVE) and using the worst method possible to deal with a problem. The elves had a right to refuse. She had no right to force them into jail.

(*)(Named due to the biblical story of King David, who coveted Uriah's wife, and in order to make her his wife, he decided to indirectly execute Uriah, by sending him to the frontline in a battle, then withdrawing all support from him, leaving him to die at the enemy hands)

[Volardelis]

I remember killing a human Dalaran mage who was slaughtering innocent blue dragon whelps. So clearly all humans must be kicked out of Dalaran for the evil of this one human.

I remember a human mage that abused his power to study a forbidden art.

He got kicked out of course, but then he made a deal with someone else and became a very powerful entity.

[Daevelian]

/frown.

He was attempting to kill the blood elves with the old "Uriah Gambit". (Related to the biblical story of King David, who coveted Uriah's wife, and in order to make her his wife, he decided to indirectly execute Uriah, by sending him to the frontline in a battle, then withdrawing all support from him, leaving him to die at the enemy hands) When the elves received aid from the Naga, he decides this justifies throwing them all in jail and Mass executing them?

Do you realize what you're saying? The elves were justified to be imprisioned and sent to death row, because they refused to die? Seriously? :S

Nevermind that the blood elves abandoned the alliance first yeah?

Lordaeron calls for aid during the plague times and gets pretty much nothing, maybe a few token priests. elves than have the guts to accuse the alliance (what remains of it anyways) of abandoning them during the sacking of Quel'thelas and people still think Garithos was LOOKING for reasons to blame the elves? god damn, i am impressed.

Correction: This is the attitude the alliance has with the horde, not the other way around. The blood elves are simply NOT going to willingly march into the Violet Hold again, just because a human says so. And as I covered above, Jaina didn't have the authority to order them to jail anyways. She's not the Queen of Dalaran, she does not rule unilaterally. She was a member of a council of which Aethas was a member too, and he had as much authority as her. She should have submitted the whole thing to a vote with the rest of the council.

Instead, she chose to play violent warmongering dictator, siccing corrupt guards who began to abuse their prisoners (Again, do the horde side, watch them beating defenceless civilians and feeding them to sharks ALIVE) and using the worst method possible to deal with a problem. The elves had a right to refuse. She had no right to force them into jail

whatever helps you sleep at night darling.

[Better]

Too many things to quote. The answer is yes, i have played WC3, and really, while Garithos WAS an asshole, he also took the right course of action when he imprisoned Kael'thas. Remember, from his perspective he returns to find the naga leaving after having had a meeting with the blood elves, the naga being known hostiles at that point in time. It's like complaining you were chucked in gaol because you were caught leaving a meeting with known criminals AFTER having helped them.

And again, people seem to think that assholes being assholes represents a faction as a whole, no wonder the horde is what it is... This is almost as bad as those yanks calling their own police force corrupt because of the actions of a few assholes.

It's hard to say "assholes being assholes don't represent a faction as a whole" when the leader of that faction is one of the people being an asshole. Vereesa cannot stand the horde, to an absolute extreme. Granted it's somewhat justified, even if it is by possibly the worst book I've ever personally read. That still doesn't make her not INCREDIBLY racist.

"I have long waited for an opportunity to deal with the Sunreavers. I asked my late husband to remove them from the city, but he believed too firmly in the neutrality of the Kirin Tor. He was wise, but he was short-sighted. This has always been the destiny of the Kirin Tor: to serve the Alliance."

"Jaina's doing a good job taking care of the Sunreavers above ground, but there's still plenty rooting around in the sewers. Go find those lying rats and exterminate them"

"Most shopkeepers in the Magus Commerce Exchange have sided with the Silver Covenant, but there remain a few holdouts that must be taken care of. <Vareesa shows you a list of names.> They will not go easily."-Vereesa right as the Purge started

Can you really defend the Silver Covenant when their leader herself is this bad?!


Additionally the entire purge of Dalaran was unjustified from the very start. Quest text alone, even if you claim Jaina murdering people first was a bug, proves this "Jaina will be going down into the city to enforce our new rules." What rules?! When did Jaina become able to make rules in Dalaran all by herself?!

[Derah]

Nevermind that the blood elves abandoned the alliance first yeah?

Lordaeron calls for aid during the plague times and gets pretty much nothing, maybe a few token priests. elves than have the guts to accuse the alliance (what remains of it anyways) of abandoning them during the sacking of Quel'thelas and people still think Garithos was LOOKING for reasons to blame the elves? god damn, i am impressed.

And this justifies mass murder? come on........

Yes the elves were jerks during the third war. So? They paid for it dearly, when the scourge utterly butt-fucked their kingdom they had nobody to help them defend it. This doesn't give Garithos the right to mass execute the lot of them just because they saw right through his Uriah Gambit and refused to die off.

You can MAYBE say that Garithos was justified in not giving them support. After all, the elves gave his land none, so he felt that he could repay them the favor.

But imprisoning them and mass executing them when they still survived was NOT justified, and was a blatant act of treachery on his part.

whatever helps you sleep at night darling.

Excuse me? Who is the one who decided to punish every single Sunreaver for the actions of what was clearly a few? Go on.... I'm waiting.

I can list up dozens of cases where a single member of the horde does something horrible, and the alliance automatically uses that as an excuse to pretend ALL of the horde is exactly like the asshole. Whereas the other way around almost never gets called around by the horde (Even in justified cases like the Purge).