Does anyone miss Honor/Conquest?

[Banthare]

At first when I heard about the pvp talent system, I was excited, but since coming back pvp just doesn't feel as enjoyable with gear being randomly earned :/

[Lightbull]

The customization in PvP definitely needs to be addressed, but just going back to the old system makes the situation worse.

I don't want to go back to grinding Honor on a new toon, and then doing 10 weekly Arena wins just to be able to stand a chance against other players. That was half the reason I quit back in MoP.

[Lucetia]

At first when I heard about the pvp talent system, I was excited, but since coming back pvp just doesn't feel as enjoyable with gear being randomly earned :/

Gearing isn't random though. You can get gear from any source in the game. What is random is basically getting the appearances which they implemented the echoes.

Prefer it to how it is now compared to before by a ton as do a lot of people I've talked to that do strictly PvP or PvE.

My only gripe is that Rank 1 still feels sluggish only because of talents being tied to it.

[Deleted]

I quit pvp together with all the people i played it with because the removal of pvp gear, so yes i do miss it.

[Jackrabb1t]

So, so, SO much.

[Kagthul]

The customization in PvP definitely needs to be addressed, but just going back to the old system makes the situation worse.

I don't want to go back to grinding Honor on a new toon, and then doing 10 weekly Arena wins just to be able to stand a chance against other players. That was half the reason I quit back in MoP.

You haven't had to do any of those things since Cata, so, im not really sure what the issue is.

Since Cata, there have been "PvP activities" that could earn you honor fairly quickly (a full set of gear with casual play in 5-10 days, tops, or much faster if you did, indeed, want to "grind"), and you've been able to cap Conquest at the base cap on 2 random BGs wins/day since then as well. (First Win bonus + one other win).

It was even less grindy in WoD (you could literally be in full honor gear + 2 pieces of conquest in six hours), and didn't even need to do all of the BG wins if you did the two Ashran weeklies (which took all of ~20 minutes).

Once they got the gear issue sorted out (removing PvP-centric stats and going with scaling iLevel for PvP, which worked JUST FINE) there was nothing daunting about gearing in PvP.

The new system is worse, in every way.

Gear still matters just as much as it did before (actually, potentially worse now, as the gear gap can be 14%), AND you have to grind Honor Talents for most specs (some are viable with the first row only, many arent viable till you have them all), AND you have to grind AP (and if you're a fresh 110 with no other 110s to boost your AP hugely when you ding... lulz).

There is provably more grinding by a huge margin in the new system than there was in the old.

The only "benefit" to the new system is that people who PvE can just step into PvP and be 100% ready to go other than Honor talents, with likely a better iLevel boost to their stats than people who only PvP.

[Snegovik]

The only time it was a "grind" to get pvp gear was in vanila, that was the REAL grind to get HW gear, ever since BC, it was a walk in a park, especially WOD, i remb with a catch system, i geared my alt to full conquest in 2 days over the weekends, from greens. Simply spamming Ashran + rated 2s with my mate.

And here came the legion...the grind now is worst than ever, other than vanila. Now you have to get 10 wins in 2s (which takes a good amount of time @ high mmr cuz its alw good teams glads/r1 and games dont end under 1 min like they do sub 2.2kcr), its still RNG (yes the new option to D/E pvp items is cool but still crap), pvp talents, artifact grind (which is the biggest grind of all).

Id love to hear who ever from Blizzard side or player base, ever said that grind now is lesser than before, id like ppl to max out a fresh toon in greens in 2 days to be on 100% even ground as pvpers who spammed high end arena since day 1 . So yes i definitely miss old pvp system, which was a much friendlier to alts than pvp now.

[Deleted]

I don't like the current system, I minded honour/conquest less.

[Lightbull]

It was even less grindy in WoD (you could literally be in full honor gear + 2 pieces of conquest in six hours)

This was the problem. 6 hours for full honor and 2 conquest, in the expansion with the quickest way to get geared. This is assuming you farm Ashran non stop, after that it was arguably more efficient to just do Arena for the conquest. The only thing that was keeping me sane in Ashran was the fact that you could farm Artifact Fragments for gear instead of fighting with my weak ass character.

I don't want to have to go through that torture just to stand a chance in PvP, I just want to be able to jump into a game and do decently, not just be a CC bot and a target dummy for MLG critz, that feels horrible. The current stat template system fixes that really well, we just need a different kind of PvP customization so it doesn't get stale.

[Lucetia]

And here came the legion...the grind now is worst than ever, other than vanila. Now you have to get 10 wins in 2s (which takes a good amount of time @ high mmr cuz its alw good teams glads/r1 and games dont end under 1 min like they do sub 2.2kcr), its still RNG (yes the new option to D/E pvp items is cool but still crap), pvp talents, artifact grind (which is the biggest grind of all).

Id love to hear who ever from Blizzard side or player base, ever said that grind now is lesser than before, id like ppl to max out a fresh toon in greens in 2 days to be on 100% even ground as pvpers who spammed high end arena since day 1 . So yes i definitely miss old pvp system, which was a much friendlier to alts than pvp now.

Could you elaborate a bit more? How do you need to grind Arena's to get geared? PvP is solely based on a gear template and for every 5 iLvLs you receive a small boost in stats. The only thing that is remotely grindy is the Artifact Power, which again you don't need to PvP or arena for. Only thing in PvP that is grindy is unlocking all your talents. After that it seems to go by faster (yes, I know it doesn't; just the way it feels).

[Snegovik]

Could you elaborate a bit more? How do you need to grind Arena's to get geared? PvP is solely based on a gear template and for every 5 iLvLs you receive a small boost in stats. The only thing that is remotely grindy is the Artifact Power, which again you don't need to PvP or arena for. Only thing in PvP that is grindy is unlocking all your talents. After that it seems to go by faster (yes, I know it doesn't; just the way it feels).

i referred to an alt being on equal footing with a player who did arena since day1, 100% equal footing, because even 1% matters.
If you want get 905-920ilvl, as a pvper, you need to spam arena to get gear or rbgs, and 2kcr+. Cant, speak for all pvpers, but myself, i just pvp, i dont pve nor desire to pve, hence the only source of high ilvl gear is donig RBGs/Arena. And Currently you can not cap full arena set in 2 days, as you could before. So here is my 1st point comparing old system (lets take WOD) and current, current system takes MUCH more time to get 910-920ilvl gear, since is ilvl top pvpers have (not saying every1 deserve high ilvl gear, but simple for the "grind" for your alts, cant catch up in 2 days)

Artifact power, you do need in arena, since you can use all the traits + the golden ones, even if you start buying 43rd trait + for 4/4 traits, they are still usable in arena. and those traits add up to a HUGE buff oppose to some1 who just hit 110, so once again you cant max out your artifact in 2 days, hence cant be on par with ppl who did arena since day 1 (once again comparing legion with WOD)

Unlocking pvp talents is easy, but just time waste in my PoV (talking about alts, i believe alts should get automatic 50 honor talents unlocked right away).

Over all, this system is preferred if you play your main (only 1 toon) whole xpac, cuz if you put time, means you will be ahead of most ppl ilvl/artifact, but the moment you decide to switch to alt...the grind begins and it will take more than two days to catch up and be on 100% equal footing with glads, as it was in WoD, hence legion's grind is worst off than it was in Legion =)

[Kagthul]

This was the problem. 6 hours for full honor and 2 conquest, in the expansion with the quickest way to get geared. This is assuming you farm Ashran non stop, after that it was arguably more efficient to just do Arena for the conquest. The only thing that was keeping me sane in Ashran was the fact that you could farm Artifact Fragments for gear instead of fighting with my weak ass character.

Are you honestly saying that six hours was somehow too long? Sx hours which did not even require you to fight other players?

I can't even.

This isn't the genre for you.

I don't want to have to go through that torture just to stand a chance in PvP, I just want to be able to jump into a game and do decently, not just be a CC bot and a target dummy for MLG critz, that feels horrible. The current stat template system fixes that really well, we just need a different kind of PvP customization so it doesn't get stale.

The current stat template system doesn't fix that at all.

The difference between Full Honor and Full Conquest gear in WoD was 9.4%.

In the current template system, a fresh 110 can be 14.5% behind in gear, and will currently -average- 9%.

And that's JUST from the iLevel boost mechanic. This does NOT include the stam bonus for extra artifact traits past 34, extra stam gained from PvP talents, or any of the powers gained from artifacts, which are WAY more of a power gap than the flat ~9% difference between Honor and full Conquest in WoD.

- - - Updated - - -

Could you elaborate a bit more? How do you need to grind Arena's to get geared?

Because if you're not doing Arenas at a high rating, you cant get gear above 860.

PvP is solely based on a gear template and for every 5 iLvLs you receive a small boost in stats

And bonus stam from Traits on your artifact, and bonuses to crit, damage, etc from your artifact, bonus stam from your PvP traits... and a potentially BIGGER gear gap from the "small boost in stats" (1%/10 iLevels, starting from an iLevel floor of 800. So someone in 920 is 12% higher than someone who just "jumps in" - a LARGER gap than in WoD, Pandaria, or Cata.)

. The only thing that is remotely grindy is the Artifact Power, which again you don't need to PvP or arena for. Only thing in PvP that is grindy is unlocking all your talents. After that it seems to go by faster (yes, I know it doesn't; just the way it feels).

You're still grinding, just not in PvP. How does that make it better? In fact, for a lot of PvPers, the fact that they basically are FORCED to do PvE to be remotely viable for PvP is cancerous.

Fact:

Prior to this "new" system, the barrier to entry to being viable in PvP was six hours (not even in one big lump) that didn't even require you to actually fight other players..

Post this new system.. you're looking at 30+ hours to be viable.

[Rockerjompa]

I miss PvP Set Bonuses you had in other expansions, now it's just some boring talents

[Lightbull]

Are you honestly saying that six hours was somehow too long? Sx hours which did not even require you to fight other players?

I can't even.

This isn't the genre for you.

I'm not alone in this opinion. The recent trend in PvP across all games in the last few years shows that people hate being gated from the content because they're weak. For Honor is a perfect example of this, you need to grind all the way to Reputation level 3 to access the best gear, otherwise you don't stand much of a chance (if you haven't played For Honor, Rep 3 is basically Level 60). This system is universally hated by the For Honor community, lots of people left because of it.

Most PvP games, even MMOs (GW2 is a good example), give options to get into the PvP immediately without needing to grind to be decent.

The current stat template system doesn't fix that at all.

The difference between Full Honor and Full Conquest gear in WoD was 9.4%.

In the current template system, a fresh 110 can be 14.5% behind in gear, and will currently -average- 9%.

And that's JUST from the iLevel boost mechanic. This does NOT include the stam bonus for extra artifact traits past 34, extra stam gained from PvP talents, or any of the powers gained from artifacts, which are WAY more of a power gap than the flat ~9% difference between Honor and full Conquest in WoD.

I agree with the artifact traits. I'm sure there are people who don't like doing world quests or PvE content but are forced to go through the artifact traits in order to PvP. You can get AP from PvP, but you need Order Hall Resources for the Artifact Knowledge. It doesn't take 30+ hours, not even close, but there's still a decent grind.

Artifacts won't be a thing next expansion, so it shouldn't be a problem by then, and there's probably going to be some kind of catchup mechanic in 7.3.

I disagree with the stat templates. Right now, players are scaled up to ilvl 850 if they have gear below that, and their stats increase by 1% every 10 ilvls. To get a 14% difference, your opponent would have to be ilvl 990. As of right now, assuming both players have the same amount of artifact traits, it would be a 6% difference at most, which is mostly negligible, and is still better than the difference between Honor and Conquest gear in the past.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that the base ilvl of PvP gear is 880, so the gear gap can get even tighter than 6%.

[Mythbredor]

The part I miss about Honor and specifically PvP gear is the fact it was better in PvP. Currently there is no real progression for PvP it's just, get PvE gear hop in PvP and kill stuff, I never really got the appeal of the prestige system to be honest. The honor talents don't really feel that good just seems like another pointless grind in a MMO put there to be annoying. And in saying that I miss Honor and Conquest because we've lost PvP gear being actually good in PvP, PvE gear just flat out beats it now.

[Sencha]

No, really. Pvp should not be about getting gear.

[Hashtronaut]

-snip-

To be honest this is the ONE thing I miss about WoD I could have 5 classes to arena with(successfully).

With how important artifact traits are this xpac that's basically impossible for me.

[Teri]

No, really. Pvp should not be about getting gear.

Why not, why would 2400 rating award 910 otherwise :P

Yes I figure they put mostly versatility on it to make it less attractive for PVE outside of few specs/tanks.

In fact on wow progress the top 100 people on itemlevel, majority is Cruel Elite gear.

Doesn't mean they can ever perform the same as a full 910+ PvE of course, there's set bonus and trinkets and different relic effects etc.

[Nerovar]

• They've removed customization in the form of gear
• They've removed the initial grind and replaced it with another grind (Artifact Power, Honor Talents)
• They've made PvP more accessible for PvE players but not the other way around
• They've turned gearing into an obscure random mess

Yeah, I miss Honor/Conquest gear.

To be honest this is the ONE thing I miss about WoD I could have 5 classes to arena with(successfully).

With how important artifact traits are this xpac that's basically impossible for me.

A friend of mine used to get at least 2k rating on every class every WoD season for the elite gear. In Legion he discarded PvP completely and switched to PvE for the first time. Sad.

[ItachiZaku]

I liked getting the gear first, and then being lazy and "overpowering" a group of alliance. As in, just resto druid tanking 8-9 people at some node while 1-2 others killed those 8-9. I mean, i'd still have to do shit but I didn't feel like I had to TRY as hard.

I don't believe in Arena, but I understand that struggle as part of the gear grind. I'm honestly unsure how I feel about it, which i liked better. My 884 ilevel DH can nearly global a fresh ding, so that aspect of random BGs hasn't changed. It just... it doesn't feel earned.