Anthem: Bioware's next Mass Effect-like IP

[szechuan]

This basically confirms my suspicions unfortunately.

LMAO.

The Bob Dylan of video Games.

Is it okay to talk about Destiny in Comparison yet?

https://kotaku.com/how-biowares-anth...ong-1833731964
Because leadership didn’t want to discuss Destiny, that developer added, they found it hard to learn from what Bungie’s loot shooter did well. “We need to be looking at games like Destiny because they’re the market leaders,” the developer said. “They’re the guys who have been doing these things best. We should absolutely be looking at how they’re doing things.” As an example, the developer brought up the unique feel of Destiny’s large variety of guns, something that Anthem seemed to be lacking, in large part because it was being built by a bunch of people who had mostly made RPGs. “We really didn’t have the design skill to be able to do that,” they said. “There just wasn’t the knowledge base to be able to develop that kind of diversity.”

Over the months, Anthem had begun naturally picking up ideas and mechanics from loot shooters like The Division and Destiny, although even mentioning the word Destiny was taboo at BioWare.

[Post]

They were really AIMING to be Destiny, but weren't good enough to even make it that far...

How did so many people think this was going to work out? Are they really that out of touch?

[Edge-]

Bioware response -
http://blog.bioware.com/2019/04/02/a...e-development/

TLDR - We're trying to fix stuff going forward to not make crunch time as shitty as it is. Our leadership team has completely changed in the last 2 years.

This response is pretty gross. This was a pre-written response as soon as Schreier reached out to them for comment, written long before they even saw the article. And given the fact that staff were either leaving in droves or taking time off to deal with severe stress it comes off as even worse, like they're complaining about their terrible work environment being criticized.

This whole thing reads like a giant mess, it's a mixture of ME:A 2.0 development issues with a nice dash of SWTOR 2.0, including their obstinate refusal to listen to the BW Austin team who were giving them all kinds of advice based on their experience. And sadly...it seems like a lot of the concerns I had about internal issues were validated - terrible management, longer pre-production than expected, not looking to other games to learn from their successes/failures (largely management...the "don't say Destiny's name" thing is straight outta SWTOR where they wouldn't say "WoW"), and not even leveraging their own internal experience.

And the icing on the cake is that BE Edmonton isn't even handling live service. They're apparently moving to start production on DA4. It's BW Austin who are handling this, a team that had no say in the direction of the game during development and was just given marching orders. I guess RIP SWTOR ever getting its developers back and creating meaningful content again.

Though on the Frostbite issues...man, many of their issues sound like it was their own stupid decisions that were the problem rather than issues with FB proper. Sounds like there's still issues working with it too (honestly, I still don't have a high opinion of BW's engineers) so it's not as if the engine isn't at fault, but a lot of the issues were them scrapping existing work to start from scratch when they may not have had to.

I truly hope BW never uses Frostbite again. They made it work for DA:I (which was apparently a nightmare to make), but failed with both ME:A and Anthem (which were also nightmares to make). Take the budget hit and license UE4 if that's better, because if they stick with Frostbite this whole thing will happen all over again unless there are major structural changes within BW. It sounds like they're at least not going to scrap work and start from scratch again for DA4, but I'm don't think that's going to be a big change that will meaningfully address their issues.

Yeesh, that was a way longer article than I expected. Hopefully the Austin team can fix more issues with the game, but I'm not super optimistic that it will happen quickly. At the very least I guess they're finally realizing that the "DA:I approach" doesn't work anymore and that game development has changed wildly from the BW hayday. Hopefully that will lead to some meaningful improvements for staff so they're not spending years being jerked around and left rowing the boat at full speed without a rudder because their leadership doesn't know where they're going.

[kaelleria]

SNIP

Here are my main takeaways -

• BW management apparently is awful w/o Casey Hudson and they've been stuck in the past in regards to treating employees well.
• EA needs to spin off Frostbite development away from DICE and stop stealing people from different teams whenever there's a new project that's on fire
• EA needs to give teams time of actually finish games and BW needs to have reasonable expectations with things going forward

The gameplay still flies circles around any other game I've played...

[szechuan]

They were really AIMING to be Destiny, but weren't good enough to even make it that far...

How did so many people think this was going to work out? Are they really that out of touch?

They were in complete Denial about Copying Destiny and Division and ended up with a poor man's Destiny.

But in general it went through a very messy development cycle, game was rushed out the door in about a year and a half.

- - - Updated - - -

[quras]

I wonder if people will be able to accept that all this garbage lands on bioware and EA this time, didn't really cause all the troubles anthem has.

[Baconeggcheese]

They were in complete Denial about Copying Destiny and Division and ended up with a poor man's Destiny.

I just sat down so I gotta catch up on all this but, I don't see how one would call this a "poor mans destiny". The games are pretty apples to oranges outside of being games about looting and guns existing. The gameplay is so tremendously different from what any of the direct competition is offering, which is probably the only reason why I've continued to give this game my time. If a rich mans Anthem existed I and many others would have just dropped Anthem in a heartbeat and wouldn't even bother giving it the time of day yet alone all the outrage that's been going on.

[Edge-]

Honestly...as shitty as the article is I'm cautiously optimistic at the fact that BW Austin is heading up development now. They have a lot more experience with online games and hopefully that will show once they dig themselves out of the current hole they're in and are able to really start pushing new content and features.

[szechuan]

which is probably the only reason why I've continued to give this game my time.

Fair enough.

The games are pretty apples to oranges outside of being games about looting and guns existing.

It's a Third Person Destiny with uninspired enemies (and AI) and overall mediocre weapon selection with Typical but Albeit sometimes Fun/Flashy abilities.

Apples to Oranges it isn't, they were clearly trying to Copy many aspects of Destiny and Division and completely failed.

Cut Content such as Skill Tree's which would've added another layer of Complexity which this game needs is also another disappointment.

Honestly...as shitty as the article is I'm cautiously optimistic at the fact that BW Austin is heading up development now. They have a lot more experience with online games and hopefully that will show once they dig themselves out of the current hole they're in and are able to really start pushing new content and features.

Some people are still holding out for Cataclysm's we'll see how that goes LOL. If that completely tanks or end up disappointing the majority of Anthem players I'm not sure how much longer Anthem can survive.

[Baconeggcheese]

It's a Third Person Destiny with uninspired enemies and mediocre weapon selection with Typical but Albeit sometimes Fun/Flashy abilities.

See this is where I know we aren't on the same page, because I barely have to use my guns at all in this game. The abilities and movement are front and center in the combat, which is exactly why its apples to oranges vs a game like destiny that is the polar opposite. Destiny (and the division) are all about guns and shooting, with abilities taking a back seat. Anthem is more like your traditional ARPG, with guns almost forced in.

That's honestly something I think they made a huge mistake with. They should have given each Jav its own unique weapons and just doubled down on the unique aspects of them, instead of awkwardly trying to have these universal guns that barely have a place in the game.

Apples to Oranges it isn't, they were clearly trying to Copy many aspects of Destiny and Division and completely failed.

Sure they tried to copy aspects of them, but again, they play completely different. One game having aspects of another =/= being the same game.

Cut Content such as Skill Tree's which would've added another layer of Complexity which this game needs is also another disappointment.

There's honestly a lot of disappointment with the game, but that's not terribly surprising for a game that was made in 18 months.

Its frustrating, imagine what the game could be if all of this stuff went right instead of going exactly how everyone assumed.

[szechuan]

because I barely have to use my guns at all in this game.

Another issue with the game, it has poor balance between Abilities and Guns.

The abilities and movement are front and center in the combat, which is exactly why its apples to oranges vs a game like destiny that is the polar opposite.

You keep on saying that but plenty Abilities in Destiny are also useful and so are the abilities in Division.

Destiny (and the division) are all about guns and shooting, with abilities taking a back seat. Anthem is more like your traditional ARPG, with guns almost forced in.

That is Untrue.

That's honestly something I think they made a huge mistake with. They should have given each Jav its own unique weapons and just doubled down on the unique aspects of them, instead of awkwardly trying to have these universal guns that barely have a place in the game.

Skill Trees.

Sure they tried to copy aspects of them, but again, they play completely different. One game having aspects of another =/= being the same game.

That's an overstatement IMO, the game feels and plays like a Third Person Destiny to me.

There's honestly a lot of disappointment with the game, but that's not terribly surprising for a game that was made in 18 months.

Its frustrating, imagine what the game could be if all of this stuff went right instead of going exactly how everyone assumed.

Agreed. They had no vision.

[Dhrizzle]

I wonder if people will be able to accept that all this garbage lands on bioware and EA this time, didn't really cause all the troubles anthem has.

EA's interference basically boils down to them pushing Frostbyte, taking programmers for FIFA (but giving extra staff from other studios) and not letting them extend into another year for development. Oh, and telling them the game was crap without flying.

[szechuan]

EA's interference basically boils down to them pushing Frostbyte, taking programmers for FIFA (but giving extra staff from other studios) and not letting them extend into another year for development. Oh, and telling them the game was crap without flying.

It was Bioware's Decision to use Frostbyte. The Majority of the issues seem to be because of Bioware.

BioWare reached out to EA about using the engine for the next games in its Dragon Age and Mass Effect role-playing franchises. Next came Ghost Games, which developed the latest entry in the Need for Speed franchise, Need for Speed Rivals. More developers followed. There are now more than a dozen Frostbite-powered games in the works, ranging from a new Mirror's Edge to the next Star Wars: Battlefront and a slew of unannounced projects. With the staggering progress that DICE made with Frostbite 3, it's easy to see why it was more or less handpicked to power EA's next-gen titles. "[Frostbite 3] is a total package when it comes to being not only a Battlefield engine, but [also] a game engine," Bach said.

https://www.engadget.com/2013/11/19/...ld-mass-effect

[Edge-]

It was Bioware's Decision to use Frostbyte.

Yes, but EA still pushes their teams to use it. Ultimately they don't mandate it, but there's clearly pressure from EA corporate on all of their teams to use Frostbite, including incentives to do so (such as not needing to pay for engine licensing fees out of their development budget).

It's not an "evil EA!" thing, but it's context on why BW may have chosen to use the engine (and stick with it).

[Baconeggcheese]

Another issue with the game, it has poor balance between Abilities and Guns.

Really depends on how you're looking at it. You keep coming from the mind frame of this game trying to be destiny, where I'm not at all thinking that.

Guns can absolutely be stronger than abilities, it depends on what rolls you get on what and how you build your char. Its not a poor balance, its just how its designed. I wouldn't want the focus on guns, because then it would really be a poor mans destiny / division instead of offering something unique to this genre.

You keep on saying that but plenty Abilities in Destiny are also useful and so are the abilities in Division.

That is Untrue.

I feel like you're arguing against a point I didn't make here. I never said they weren't useful, I said they take a back seat. Which is objectively true by every measure.

Abilities are in fact your bread and butter in Anthem, and abilities in destiny and the division absolutely take a back seat to shooting. Anthems gameplay loop is absolutely the polar opposite of destiny and the division in that regard, unless you're one of the lucky few who find a god drop gun with like +500% dmg that's simply too strong to not use.

Skill Trees.

Sure? I was talking about items myself. I feel like the guns are forced when they would have been better served making most guns the rangers bread and butter and then giving Storm and Interceptor their own unique weapons similar to Colossus having its heavy weps.

Skill trees could be nice (could mean so many different things when we talk about "skill trees" as a general thing), but they aren't necessary imo.

That's an overstatement IMO, the game feels and plays like a Third Person Destiny to me.

Which makes no sense to me, but I don't think we'll see eye to eye there. Its like saying WoW and diablo play exactly the same or something.

Agreed. They had no vision.

I'm still reading through this, but vision doesn't seem to be what they lacked.

[szechuan]

Yes, but EA still pushes their teams to use it. Ultimately they don't mandate it, but there's clearly pressure from EA corporate on all of their teams to use Frostbite, including incentives to do so (such as not needing to pay for engine licensing fees out of their development budget).

It's not an "evil EA!" thing, but it's context on why BW may have chosen to use the engine (and stick with it).

Yeah that's possible, but Bioware could of still fought harder to use a different engine, Bioware didn't even seem to know what they wanted to do with Anthem due to poor leadership etc...

[Edge-]

Yeah that's possible, but Bioware could of still fought harder to use a different engine, Bioware didn't even seem to know what they wanted to do with Anthem due to poor leadership etc...

I mean it's not about "fighting", they didn't have to fight anything. They chose to stay with Frostbite because it was cheaper for them to do so and because, as you said, their leadership was making poor decisions.

[szechuan]

I feel like you're arguing against a point I didn't make here. I never said they weren't useful, I said they take a back seat. Which is objectively true by every measure.

Which is an Issue, some of the developers also seemed like they wanted Guns to be a bigger part of the game.

Abilities are in fact your bread and butter in Anthem

Abilities are also very useful in Destiny and Division.

abilities in destiny and the division absolutely take a back seat to shooting.

In Destiny Abilities do not take a "back seat" Ultimate's are flashy useful abilities that can deal a lot of damage, Grenades are also on a reasonable Cool down Timer.

Anthems gameplay loop is absolutely the polar opposite of destiny and the division in that regard, unless you're one of the lucky few who find a god drop gun with like +500% dmg that's simply too strong to not use.

Yet you seem to contradict yourself, You're saying Guns aren't a huge part of the game unless you get Good Damage Rolls on guns?

I feel like the guns are forced when they would have been better served making most guns the rangers bread and butter and then giving Storm and Interceptor their own unique weapons similar to Colossus having its heavy weps.

yet Colossus's Heavy weapon is one of the popular in the game and IS a gun. I do agree that each Javelin should of had it's own Unique weapon set.

Skill trees could be nice (could mean so many different things when we talk about "skill trees" as a general thing), but they aren't necessary imo.

Yes they are and they are even more important in Division 2.

Adding a Proper skill tree would of added more Depth to the game.

I doubt this game will ever see a STAT sheet and that is a problem for a game like this.

Which makes no sense to me, but I don't think we'll see eye to eye there. Its like saying WoW and diablo play exactly the same or something.

WoW didn't try to copy Diablo.

I'm still reading through this, but vision doesn't seem to be what they lacked.

They clearly lacked vision, there were relatively a lot Leadership changes and Leadership seemingly indecisive and in denial about what they want to do.

[Dhrizzle]

It was Bioware's Decision to use Frostbyte. The Majority of the issues seem to be because of Bioware.

I basically agree with Edge which is why I said "pushing" rather than "forcing." In essence I agree though, discarding what was done with ME:A and DA:I probably didn't help and a lot of their engine woes would have been mitigated by management actually giving some direction and managing the project properly.

[Baconeggcheese]

Which is an Issue, some of the developers also seemed like they wanted Guns to be a bigger part of the game.

So, there's a difference between you wanting the game to be a destiny / division clone, and the fact that it isn't.

Its an issue to you, its not an issue to the game or what we're talking about.

Abilities are also very useful in Destiny and Division.

Are you ok? You keep saying this as if it has anything to do with what I just said.

In Destiny Abilities do not take a back seat Ultimate's are flashy useful abilities that can deal a lot of damage, Grenades are also on a reasonable Cool down Timer.

And you still spend 90% of your time shooting things, and shooting things with guns is still the primary focus of the entire game.. I don't begin to understand why you're arguing this.

Yet you seem to contradict yourself, You're saying Guns aren't a huge part of the game unless you get Good Damage Rolls on guns?

Being able to get good damage rolls on guns =/= the game being about guns... like what?

yet Colossus's Heavy weapon is one of the popular in the game and IS a gun. I do agree that each Javelin should of had it's own Unique weapon set.

Was I specifically talking about Colossus with that comment? Seriously are you ok? You're having a different conversation vs what's being posted.

I'm trying to give you a chance here and you're making me remember why I stopped replying to you.

WoW didn't try to copy Diablo.

So we're... missing the point here again...

They clearly lacked vision, there were relatively a lot Leadership changes and Leadership seemingly indecisive and in denial about what they want to do.

Leadership =/= the whole company and the devs who actually make the product. Clearly a lot of people had lots of different visions, the issue with leadership guiding that vision properly is a completely different issue vs having any vision at all.