Is this game's content still based on memorization?

[dope_danny]

Is the endgame still like that, with bosses full of phases and patterns that you have to practice and memorize to beat and you gear barely mattered?

Thats.. literally every none turn based videogame ever made.

[Faroth]

If WoW is designed better to your tastes, you should play WoW.
If FFXIV is designed better to your tastes, you should play FFXIV.

FFXIV is not, has not, and isn't going to be built, designed, and revolve around hardcore raid design that only 5-10% of the players will ever see. They've made that pretty obvious by this point. If you think it's going to suddenly change, you're going to be disappointed.

Now watch the WoW vs FFXIV debate because that'll lead to having to close another thread.

[Wrecktangle]

What drove me away is spending hours reading/watching guides and then more to play a hopeless fight ("practicing") that inevitably just made the whole group salty and disband.

Is the endgame still like that, with bosses full of phases and patterns that you have to practice and memorize to beat and you gear barely mattered? Or did it became more intuitive like WoW?

I'm curious about the new expansion but if endgame raiding is still a rather unenjoyable experience then I think it's not for me.

I think I actually know what you're talking about that I don't think a single person took the time to think about.

You're talking about how most of ARR boss fights were VERY hard-coded to do x at y time always. No RNG, just a strict pattern with no deviation correct?

In my experience the game is much better at this now than in ARR. There are a lot more mechanics that deviate RNG location and player and have multiple avenues of success.

When you look at something like Titan, Ifrit, & Garuda EX everything is always in the exact same place at the exact same time. Compare that to Leviathan or Ramuh, or Susanoo where there are definitely better designed RNG elements that force you to adapt on the fly to succeed (similar to the feeling I get from raiding mythic in WoW). The mechanics feel much more engaging rather than restrictive. This is of course my opinion, but I suspect that this could be what the OP was referring too.

Now with that said, the game still is very "phase" driven. and each phase has mechanics that you need to understand and deal with. That hasn't changed. There are a lot more gear checks these days IMO as well, so your gear is definitely important.

Would you have an example of something in WoW that demonstrates the feeling that you're looking for to better help identify the pain point?

[Deleted]

"Or did it became more intuitive like WoW?"

What? WoW is the same... you have phases and attacks they do which you react or memories. What you ask for is what every MMO with raiding has.

If you dont mean LFR where you can sleep and ppl do it for you while you stand in everything and it doesnt matter.

[Wrecktangle]

...that's literally what I've said in a few posts now lol. And I'm not even sure the counter examples you gave, like LEX and SUEX, are really much better in that regard. Many fights in FFXIV have some element of RNG, but the timings of mechanics are precise literally to the second.

First let me state that your analysis in your other posts is good. I agree with most of it, especially in regards to the lack of organic gameplay elements and the god awful netcode/tick rate.

The point I was trying to drive is that in the beginning of ARR it was a strict dance with little deviation. The fights now are still dances, but they "feel" a little less strict because of a few added RNG elements. In LEX having to look around the room rapidly to find the charge location vs. being fixed in same every time. Titan EX was a ton of dangerous mechanics, but they never varied location or timing. While FF14 still has a lot to go with regards to timing design, they've done a good job at managing varied location. SUEX requires a lot of tank repositioning and has random cloud placement, Ramuh had random electric orbs and fields and players that needed to free them from charm, etc.

I would have liked SUEX to have random orb placements forcing the party to give room while DPSing and the tank to carefully manage sprint usage to get the orbs, but alas I am not in charge

[Kazgrel]

I'm pretty sure bosses and having patterns to how they attack/behave has been a thing since video games began...

[Eleccybubb]

I'm pretty sure bosses and having patterns to how they attack/behave has been a thing since video games began...

Yep it's called AI scripts.

[Fuubakusatsu]

I'm pretty sure bosses and having patterns to how they attack/behave has been a thing since video games began...

Every video-game has mechanics that you have to learn and bosses that have different gimmicks that you have to understand. The important thing is how well you use them.

After the first few patches, FFXIV bosses throws gimmick after gimmick at you, without regard to direction or fun. Mechanics changes every phase, work completely different and, in the worst cases, are used only after 10 minutes and will completely murder the group because "you didn't have practice".

Fights like Ifrit Extreme (where all mechanics were used from the start) and Titan extreme (where you can get away with quick reflexes) were fun to me. Fights like Ravana, Thordan and Sephirot, that just throws a bunch of random shit at you, weren't. Speaking of Thordan, he had a gaze attack of all things... made absolutely no sense.

Either way, I guess it's just not the game for me anymore.

For the people saying that WoW fights are the same... they aren't nearly as bloated as FFXIV was. Again, I don't know how FFXIV is today (which is why I started the thread).

Edit: on the RNG thing. This bothers me too. There were some bosses whose mechanics were semi-random (Chimera, ADS and Twintania) but sadly they never did that again.

[Nikkaszal]

Bosses still use all their abilities in an extremely set rotation. The video guides for them are still "Boss will cast X next, so stand here. Then move there, because this will be followed by Y" as opposed to the WoW ones which are "these are the boss' mechanics, and our suggested way of dealing with them".

[Dasffion]

Bosses still use all their abilities in an extremely set rotation. The video guides for them are still "Boss will cast X next, so stand here. Then move there, because this will be followed by Y" as opposed to the WoW ones which are "these are the boss' mechanics, and our suggested way of dealing with them".

Wow has mods that do the exact same thing as the FFXIV video guides except they happen in real time. They even have timers for abilities that are coming up.

[Nikkaszal]

Wow has mods that do the exact same thing as the FFXIV video guides except they happen in real time. They even have timers for abilities that are coming up.

Yeah and very few of those mechanics are based around "stand in this exact spot to not die"

The core of FF raiding is the positioning dance, where most of the slew of boss abilities are telegraphed AoEs that you need to memorise to not be 1-shot, whereas WoW focuses on constant, randomised damage mechanics to strain your healers.

[Granyala]

What drove me away is spending hours reading/watching guides and then more to play a hopeless fight ("practicing") that inevitably just made the whole group salty and disband.

Is the endgame still like that, with bosses full of phases and patterns that you have to practice and memorize to beat and you gear barely mattered? Or did it became more intuitive like WoW?

I'm curious about the new expansion but if endgame raiding is still a rather unenjoyable experience then I think it's not for me.

Take it from a retiree with 8,5 years of raiding experience in WoW:
Raiding here is just like raiding in WoW.

There are minute differences, but overall FF is basically a WoW clone with FF skin in terms of PvE. Yes, savage raiding will require memorization and patience in order to progress. If you do not like that, stick to normal modes. They are quite intuitive to the veteran and I haven't read a strat in years.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah and very few of those mechanics are based around "stand in this exact spot to not die"

Umm did you ever raid mythic?
It's just as much a positional dance in WoW and most avoidable damage in Mythic kills you too.

- - - Updated - - -

Some of the fights definitely look epic, but "feel" epic? Yeah I dunno about that lol. There's something janky and cheap-feeling about the whole server-tick delay that makes standing in the middle of a plume of fire safe as long as you were out of it when the orange circle disappeared. Every fight: "This orange circle will be the death of me, oh cool it's gone, OMG THE WORLD IS ERUPTING AROUND ME AND I AM IN GODMODE!!!" as your character gets completely engulfed by flames, ice, lightning and earthquakes and takes 0 damage.

I completely agree.
The 0.5 - 1s server delay (Not to be confused with latency) which also affects the UI and moving while seemingly still casting is a jarring to annoying as a healer.

[Kazgrel]

Every video-game has mechanics that you have to learn and bosses that have different gimmicks that you have to understand. The important thing is how well you use them.

After the first few patches, FFXIV bosses throws gimmick after gimmick at you, without regard to direction or fun. Mechanics changes every phase, work completely different and, in the worst cases, are used only after 10 minutes and will completely murder the group because "you didn't have practice".

Fights like Ifrit Extreme (where all mechanics were used from the start) and Titan extreme (where you can get away with quick reflexes) were fun to me. Fights like Ravana, Thordan and Sephirot, that just throws a bunch of random shit at you, weren't. Speaking of Thordan, he had a gaze attack of all things... made absolutely no sense.

Either way, I guess it's just not the game for me anymore.

For the people saying that WoW fights are the same... they aren't nearly as bloated as FFXIV was. Again, I don't know how FFXIV is today (which is why I started the thread).

Edit: on the RNG thing. This bothers me too. There were some bosses whose mechanics were semi-random (Chimera, ADS and Twintania) but sadly they never did that again.

All of what you described pertaining to how boss mechanics/gimmicks change over the course of the fight happens in WoW and likely in other MMOs also that feature similar such raid bosses...

There's sequencing/patterns to everything bosses do in this game. The only RNG involved at time is "which dps gets targeted for xyz mechanic", since most things that target tanks/healers are pretty specific.

If you're not wanting to play the game, that's fine, but your reasoning stated here is...well, odd, really.

[Deleted]

Yeah and very few of those mechanics are based around "stand in this exact spot to not die"

The core of FF raiding is the positioning dance, where most of the slew of boss abilities are telegraphed AoEs that you need to memorise to not be 1-shot, whereas WoW focuses on constant, randomised damage mechanics to strain your healers.

Such as?
Kil'jaeden is pretty much your cookie cutter FFXIV boss. (or vise versa)


Soak, stack, spread, look at where X spawns so you aren't getting pushed out of the arena.
He even has a phase where you can't do anything significant to him and are forced to move and act on mechanics


Avatar too

plumes spawn under several players and you have to "dance" around them, stack the purple debuff, move away from him as far as possible (typical meteor/bomb explosion). Random players get a debuff which hit people around them.

[Wrecktangle]

Such as? /10 char.
Kil'jaeden is pretty much your cookie cutter FFXIV boss. (or vise versa)


Soak, stack, spread, look at where X spawns so you aren't getting pushed out of the arena.
He even has a phase where you can't do anything significant to him and are forced to move and act on mechanics


Avatar too

plumes spawn under several players and you have to "dance" around them, stack the purple debuff, move away from him as far as possible (typical meteor/bomb explosion). Random players get a debuff which hit people around them.

When I compare FF14 to WoW raiding, the main difference to me is organic and fluid mechanics. FF14 never feels as organic as I wish it did.

Look at a fight like Spellblade:

Mark of Frost forces people to identify who has it, spread away from others not to cause too much damage, and pop it at a certain value of tolerance. popping the debuff spreads it. So doing it too early strains everyone.

The fire debuff spawns adds that can't be too close, should be interrupted, and are a small DPS check.

The arcane forces the entire party to move together, but also beware of tanks positioning to not eat the tankbuster. Then you're faced with a larger DPS check.

The whole fight feels like a beautiful moving organism. Does that make sense?

In FF14 most mechanics are usually very simple with but a single solution or fail. It's do X or fail check. Be at Y location or reset fight. please note that not all fights follow this formula or are this static, It's merely an overarching observation from someone who's done the highest level of content both games offer.

Another example is Tichondirus:

He puts a blood plague on a few players who have to position away from others so that when he does the attack it doesn't spread or double hit anyone. No telegraphs, just fluid positioning required.

You have periodic add spawns that have to be tanked and pulled away and DPS'd down before the next set arrive. There are multiple solutions and multiple ways for DPS to balance the load.

You have safe zones that get put up for people to hide behind, but people can pick and choose if they want to stay out if they have the CD's available to survive, etc. In FF14 a mechanic like this would be do x or fail. No decision making.

There are other mechanics, but I'm not super knowledgeable about them as they only applied to ranged.

Look at Elisande:

Where you kill the adds and where her rings spawn influence on the fly how you react. You often have to choose between DPS'ing an add or burst a phase change (decision point), or DPS on add or landing an interrupt to mitigate some damage, ranged have to be dynamically positioned to soak orbs that fall from the sky, at the same time as dodging rings, etc.

I guess what I am trying to draw a point to is that WoW encounters feel like they're in real time ripe with decisions to be made. FF14 has always felt like it happens in steps. You never have to worry about whats coming, all you need to do is study X, beat X, then study Y, beat Y because what you do in X or how you approach X never really affects Y. Does that make sense?

[Deleted]

I guess what I am trying to draw a point to is that WoW encounters feel like they're in real time ripe with decisions to be made. FF14 has always felt like it happens in steps. You never have to worry about whats coming, all you need to do is study X, beat X, then study Y, beat Y because what you do in X or how you approach X never really affects Y. Does that make sense?

Hmmm, no it doesn't tbh.
The mechanics you mentioned are defeated by memorizing the fight (which is what I was getting at). You don't really react to most of that in a different way than FFXIV mechanics.

The reason why it seems more "fluid" is because WoW is fast paced compared to FFXIV, which has pretty "slow" gameplay (mostly due to super long GCDs and lag)


Elisandre orbs are a dance, it's not random, you also know exactly when it'll happen.
Same with Tichondrius.
Same with Spellblade.

I mean, the fight doesn't feel any different to me just because a puddle is more to the left than it was the try before.
Sure thing, you have more "freedom" as to how you position yourself though.

The patterns however, are the same everywhere and everytime. Krosus is a prime example for that... and he is not designed differently, it's just more obvious.

[Deleted]

Have to agree with Wrecktangle. It has nothing to do with game speed, it has everything to do with how fights are designed. In FFXIV every mechanic is precise and happens at the exact same time in each phase. That's why you can have stuff like ACT tell you exactly when and where to move. Yes, there is some RNG but those RNG mechanics always happen at the same time. Compare this to DBM in WoW which will advise you of the boss' ability CDs but won't actually assist you until the trigger occurs, which can happen at a random time.

But that is not true. Boss abilities in WoW always happen in order too, because they aren't allowed to overlap randomly, since most of them would result in a 100% wipe.
On top of that, the pattern and frequence of each ability is also the same (with very little RNG varriance from time to time).

A boss that doesn't work that way would be the odd one out in WoW too.

[Wrecktangle]

Hmmm, no it doesn't tbh.
The mechanics you mentioned are defeated by memorizing the fight (which is what I was getting at). You don't really react to most of that in a different way than FFXIV mechanics.

Where Elisande teleports is fixed and never changes? Where Elisande spawns adds is fixed and never changes? The timing that the adds die never changes thus causing scrambling to reposition? In FF14 if you don't kill adds you wipe.

The point I think you're marginalizing is that these elements occur frequently and more randomly. While they have accepted resolutions, your positioning is always fluid and requires you to be present and aware to react accordingly, not simply stand at Y location at X time to succeed, or do X dps or wipe.

Look at Susano EX as an example. You always go to the other side with lightning debuff. Then later on you always have everyone move. Something more organic would be the debuffs being randomized and the party reacting more accordingly. What if the boss could aim his ultimate at a different angle (or the longer it took the wider the split) that would cause people to have actually understand how the clouds work rather than go south, or go right? What if multiple clouds could spawn simultaneously? What if P2 orbs didn't spawn in fixed locations or move at fixed speeds and DPS had to move and DPS to successfully down the sword while watching their positioning and orb placement.

But that is not true. Boss abilities in WoW always happen in order too, because they aren't allowed to overlap randomly, since most of them would result in a 100% wipe.
On top of that, the pattern and frequence of each ability is also the same (with very little RNG varriance from time to time).

A boss that doesn't work that way would be the odd one out in WoW too.

Your statement is actually factually inaccurate here. Boss timers in WoW are guidelines they are not always 100% accurate. It is very common for 2 timers to come up around the same time and you're not sure which the boss will do first.

[Deleted]

Your statement is actually factually inaccurate here. Boss timers in WoW are guidelines they are not always 100% accurate. It is very common for 2 timers to come up around the same time and you're not sure which the boss will do first.

Is it?

When did that ever happen.
Name one boss (if you even can) and I name 10 more where it doesn't happen.

Look at Susano EX as an example. You always go to the other side with lightning debuff. Then later on you always have everyone move. Something more organic would be the debuffs being randomized and the party reacting more accordingly. What if the boss could aim his ultimate at a different angle (or the longer it took the wider the split) that would cause people to have actually understand how the clouds work rather than go south, or go right? What if multiple clouds could spawn simultaneously? What if P2 orbs didn't spawn in fixed locations or move at fixed speeds and DPS had to move and DPS to successfully down the sword while watching their positioning and orb placement.

The cloud is basically exactly what you are describing. If it lines up with the boss, you need to adjust your position.


Has nothing to do with the memorization though.
Puddles n shit are random in FFXIV too.

What's the difference between Kil'jaeden (haven't seen HC yet) and Susano EX in terms of encounter design for example?


Is anyone truely memorizing and counting the seconds in FFXIV? I doubt it (don't make me laugh) or are people just memorizing the abilities and move and do the stuff required to counter that mechanic.

Do you know the lightning pattern of Susano EX? Do you know the pattern of the fight at all? Or do you just know what to do whenever X happens (just as you know what to do @ Elisandre when the Orbs spawn) because that is basically all you need to know to defeat them.

Just like I know that there is a moment during the Krosus fight, where adds and beams line up - just like I know the following add phase after that, has the Meteor following directly after. I move / pay attention in advance. No more or less "on the fly" decision than in FFXIV at all, I memorized the important bits of the fight and this will happen in 10 out of 10 tries.
Same with Guldan's well explosion + Eye spawn (or vise versa depending on difficulty)

Same with Susano EX, when that dice thingy lines up with the knockback and the stack mechanic and you can get all three.

Where Elisande teleports is fixed and never changes? Where Elisande spawns adds is fixed and never changes? The timing that the adds die never changes thus causing scrambling to reposition? In FF14 if you don't kill adds you wipe.

What does FF14 add kill-mechanic have to do with RNG-location elements of WoW?
If you don't kill Elisandre adds in time, she'll do the orbs anyway - and you wipe too.
The thing is, adds will always spawn first, Orbs follow. Not the other way around - never the other way around. Because the encounters are designed that way.

And FF14 bosses aren't free of RNG either, but it's indeed less frequent and it's more or less a 10m dance. A 10m Dance you don't have to remember because you can always just react to the things on screen once you understand what each ability does (just like in WoW)

[Deleted]

Look carefully at this guy's UI during Skorpyron. Can you see the DBM timers? See the difference in what's going on here? The boss abilities are on cooldowns, they don't happen *exactly* when the timer runs out, every time. Sometimes it does, but most of the time as you can see there is variance. This naturally causes the fight to be a bit more organic and fluid. Sometimes you have 10 seconds to kill adds, sometimes 30 second, sometimes 20 seconds, before the raid needs to hide behind crystals. Sometimes you have 10 seconds between the boss frontal attack ability where the raid needs to reposition and the knockback, sometimes you have over 30 seconds.

just to be clear:

It's not the "CD" what makes the fight different, it's a mechanic that depends on how much damage the raid deals.
That's the part of the fight that mixes up his "rotation".
Tichondrius on the other hand, doesn't have that kind of mechanic - which is why you could write a FF14 styled guide for him.

Skorpyon will always be the same up to the point where you put him down to 75% for the first time (that means if you don't deal any damage at all, he'll end up casting the same stuff at the same timings). Since that is never the exact same second, the skills will be delayed and align differently from try to try.