Battle for Azeroth Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Deleted]

This wouldn't be an issue if there was actual Forsaken around that defy Sylvanas ingame. So far it just feels like every Forsaken is loyal to Sylvanas which is hard to stomach. Basically on this story element, Blizzard doesn't show. So at best brainwashing is at play.

So far we've encountered one, who said he went away because he felt like Sylvanas just wasn't herself anymore and he didn't want to stay anymore ("I once worked for the so-called "Banshee-Queen", Sylvanas, as an apothecary. I used to admire her, but something's changed within her. She's not herself anymore. ") . He joined the Argent Crusade and is now at the Plaguewood Tower. Is name is Argent Apothecary Judkins. He actually says he broke his vows with the Forsaken for it.
We also have other former Forsaken living in other places, for example in Dalaran (Alchemy trainer Deucus Valdera), but they don't say why exactly they left.
Now for the first time we see Forsaken wanting something else than Sylvanas, more than just one at a time, for a bigger chunk of the Forsaken society and doing something about it. By that I mean forming the council, not deserting, because that wasn't the purpose of the council originally.

[Lahis]

So even those who CHOOSE to Serve can also CHOOSE to leave.

Given recent events, the latter seems to also involve dark arrow to the head.

[Steampunkette]

Given recent events, the latter seems to also involve dark arrow to the head.

Oh, absolutely! If you don't ask to be released from your vow of service, she kills you for bailing. It's probably part of the vow?

[huth]

Oh, absolutely! If you don't ask to be released from your vow of service, she kills you for bailing. It's probably part of the vow?

You can ask to leave. We don't exactly have much in the way of examples of people actually being allowed to do so.

[Steampunkette]

You can ask to leave. We don't exactly have much in the way of examples of people actually being allowed to do so.

Just the one that I'm aware of. Traveler: Spiral Paths. Page 169. Reigol Valdread who served as an SI:7 agent into his 40s 'til the Scourge claimed him, and who swore fealty to Sylvanas when she freed him from the Scourge.

We have 1 example of someone asking to be released from his vow, and he got his wish.

Well we do have examples of people becoming pincushions for wanting to leave.

We do! Though they were still sworn to serve Sylvanas and didn't ask to leave (Though plenty went running BACK out of loyalty and died for consorting with defectors, a dubious position at -best- and pretty evil as it stands)

[Lahis]

Oh, absolutely! If you don't ask to be released from your vow of service, she kills you for bailing. It's probably part of the vow?

Sylvanas' own words: "I cannot allow that sentiment, that hope, to grow. It is an infection ready to spread. I have to cut it out."

For her, it is unacceptable that Forsaken would even think about life not under her heels.

[Steampunkette]

Sylvanas' own words: "I cannot allow that sentiment, that hope, to grow. It is an infection ready to spread. I have to cut it out."

For her, it is unacceptable that Forsaken would even think about life not under her heels.

That's... certainly one interpretation of the text. A fuller quote would be:

"But how much of that was fear? How tempted were they until that point? No, Nathanos, I cannot take the risk. The only Desolate Council Members I trust are the ones who returned to me early on, broken and truly Desolate. All the others... I cannot allow that sentiment, that hope, to grow. It is an infection ready to spread. I have to cut it out."

Some were defecting, and when the horn blew, some came back. But how many came out of fear, rather than loyalty? That is the heart of the sentiment, the hope, to which she's referring. Disloyal people who -want- to defect, but are only returning out of fear for what Sylvanas would do if they did defect. That sentiment could spread (And would, because that's how revolts are born, after all).

It's not "Thinking about life that isn't under her heels" it's "Thinking about defecting" when you put it into the full context, instead of quote-mining.

[Deleted]

Sylvanas' own words: "I cannot allow that sentiment, that hope, to grow. It is an infection ready to spread. I have to cut it out."

For her, it is unacceptable that Forsaken would even think about life not under her heels.

I think it is a little more complicated than that. She has so far let people go. But those were different. They wanted to stay Forsaken and live in Undercity, but wanted change. (The council as a whole at first and then only the non-defectors, ofc). So if you think about a few people leaving and taking their 'silly' thoughts with them, that is something else than a bunch of people living in your city, that want to change your society and have just been also given the hope and maybe even the means of doing that.

[Maljinwo]

Discussing Forsaken's free will is a mistake.

[DeicideUH]

The Nelves, Dwarves, Humans, and Gnomes hunted down and murdered the envoys that were sent (Initially suspected by Sylvanas, recently confirmed by Nathanos).

What's the source for the bolded part? And how trustworth can Nathanos be? I'm curious.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

What's the source for the bolded part? And how trustworth can Nathanos be? I'm curious.

Even if that's the case, it's in no way justifying her behavior.

[Steampunkette]

What's the source for the bolded part? And how trustworth can Nathanos be? I'm curious.

Datamined Broadcast text. http://www.wowhead.com/news=283706/b...assil-jaina-in

"Nathanos: When the Lich King's hold over us was broken, Sylvanas sought allies. Instead of embracing their fallen kin of Lordaeron, the humans spurned us. Hunted us. So I vowed to hunt them. "

[Drekmar]

so how likely is it that we get a build today and then next week ptr?

It is quite possible. Its tuesday and we had PTR char wipe.

[Steampunkette]

Even if that's the case, it's in no way justifying her behavior.

It was never meant to Justify Sylvanas's behavior. Only provide evidence that the Alliance, and specifically humans, don't want Forsaken around.

Is it even important? Zombies suddenly starting asking for parlay with the Alliance RIGHT AFTER MURDERING THE ONLY REMAINING ALLIANCE COMMANDER IN LORDAERON.

Yeah . . . good luck getting people to agree to talk to you. Did I mention the second in command of the Forsaken was a Dreadlord?

Hey, the humans were freaked out and didn't want contact. They didn't have to hunt down and murder a diplomatic envoy to communicate that (committing a War Crime in the process: Perfidy)

[huth]

That's... certainly one interpretation of the text. A fuller quote would be:

"But how much of that was fear? How tempted were they until that point? No, Nathanos, I cannot take the risk. The only Desolate Council Members I trust are the ones who returned to me early on, broken and truly Desolate. All the others... I cannot allow that sentiment, that hope, to grow. It is an infection ready to spread. I have to cut it out."

Some were defecting, and when the horn blew, some came back. But how many came out of fear, rather than loyalty? That is the heart of the sentiment, the hope, to which she's referring. Disloyal people who -want- to defect, but are only returning out of fear for what Sylvanas would do if they did defect. That sentiment could spread (And would, because that's how revolts are born, after all).

It's not "Thinking about life that isn't under her heels" it's "Thinking about defecting" when you put it into the full context, instead of quote-mining.

That's still her being unable to accept that some might not want to live under her. And stomping down on these people typically only leads to the resentment growing in the dark where it isn't seen, even among those previously loyal, as it was proven to be a valid concern.

[Wildstars]

devil's advocate has come

[Steampunkette]

That's still her being unable to accept that some might not want to live under her. And stomping down on these people typically only leads to the resentment growing in the dark where it isn't seen, even among those previously loyal, as it was proven to be a valid concern.

That's an extreme reduction of the situation, Huth. This isn't "People not wanting to live under her" this is "People defecting during a Cold War situation in what appears to be a Coup attempt using Calia Menethil" for someone who barely survived the last 2 coup attempts. Well... Technically she died in the second one, but she got better.

Though it -is- probably going to lead to increased resentment and the Forsaken launching a revolution. At which point we'll see whether it's a French Revolution situation or more of a Magna Carta situation.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Hey, the humans were freaked out and didn't want contact. They didn't have to hunt down and murder a diplomatic envoy to communicate that (committing a War Crime in the process: Perfidy)

Oh please, don't start with the warcrime nonsense. Humanity almost got wiped out and seeing an Undead asking for aid, it's not something easily washed away.

[Deleted]

I
....

Hey, the humans were freaked out and didn't want contact. They didn't have to hunt down and murder a diplomatic envoy to communicate that (committing a War Crime in the process: Perfidy)

Perfidy is the other way around. If you feign at being an envoy or wanting to negotiate and then attack, you commit perfidy.

[rda]

No, Sylvanas doesn't force or coerce newly risen to join her. As the person making the claim, I'll ask you to provide your evidence that the Forsaken are being lied to when they're raised.

...

But by all means. Provide your evidence that shows that the Forsaken are fed lies about how the rest of the world rejects them and they've got little choice but to join the Forsaken or try to make their own way in the world.

Do you remember why we are at all talking about it?

It's because of this: http://www.wowhead.com/news=284516/h...grave-spoilers

Look at the quest text. They go to the grave of a human war hero. They dig the body out. They resurrect it. They give him "the choice". And the risen undead accepts it.

This "choice" that the risen undead makes means that he is going against his own people.

And we haven't heard of anybody ever rejecting this "choice". Nah, all we are hearing is that the new risen sometimes have to "cope" with being undead.

Don't you see anything wrong with the new risen all going the Sylvanas way. Even though this means killing their former people? Do they (was: you) understand that they are going against their former people? If they don't, then Sylvanas is deceiving them and telling them lies. If they do, then Sylvanas is coercing them or corrupting them, because they cannot all be traitors. Whatever the case, the Sylvanas is doing a horrible thing. She isn't saving them, she is using them as tools against their own people and against their own will. Because, again, they cannot all be traitors.

(And, just in case, if you are going to go this extreme route of all undead being horrible traitors because when you die you stop worrying about your relatives for some reason, bla bla bla, then be advised that this wonderful route promptly ends with this: if the new risen no longer care about who they were / turn traitors, then they are just horrible creatures similar to viruses and don't have any rights to live worth speaking about. The Dark Lady is then commanding a bunch of polio and similar diseases, they should be eradicated, the end, it's not a war, it's fighting a natural disaster. So, yeah, that road is closed. The new risen DO care about who they were before, else they aren't anything worth talking about.)

Now let's look at what you say about "the choice" and the undead:

"We've seen, fairly goddamned clearly, that the humans, and the rest of the Alliance, hate the undead, by and large." --- and why is that? As it was said a number of times, nobody would give a damn if the undead were just weaving blankets sitting in their homes. The hatred is predominantly because the undead are violent. And the undead are violent because of that option in "the choice" where you serve Sylvanas.

"We're told that some undead leave." --- oh, really? So why Sylvanas insisted on ruling all undead when a part of them wanted to part ways? Why did that part have to hide? Why did it have to cooperate with the Alliance without Sylvanas knowing? Why did Sylvanas immediately ordered to kill them the moment she saw that they don't share her ideas regarding their own goddamn lives? Why is that? Heat of the moment? All these things are just a misunderstanding, and Sylvanas would happily let them leave if they just asked? No, and you know it. You just pretend that since Blizzard didn't spell it specifically in exact words, that this is not the case. All actions of Sylvanas, everything that happens with the Forsaken shows that she is a goddamn tyrant who uses everyone as fodder, nothing else. You are hers. Or you can die. Maybe sometimes she doesn't care about someone and he leaves peacefully. But that's an exception, the rule is before you: she kills those who try to do anything she doesn't like.

"Because the Forsaken aren't lying, or coercing, or forcing you to do shit when they tell you that you're going to get rejected." --- yes, they are lying and coercing and forcing. No, you aren't going to get rejected. The Alliance just tried to offer that option. It had to do it *behind* Sylvanas back *because* she does not want it. And she has shown that she does not want it plenty by killing those who tried to use it.

This was my last post on this topic. Feel free to fanboy regardless. But all you are doing is blatantly ignoring all things that you have to ignore to keep your myth of "the choice" and "gray area" and "not evil" going - and that's like 80% of the things that we know about the Forsaken. I don't know why one would do that, but you are doing it in every message when you are talking about Sylvanas.

(Apologies to everyone for the long post.)

---
Damn the cross-posts, I wasn't fast enough:

We have 1 example of someone asking to be released from his vow, and he got his wish.

Because he was one and this was pink-elephant-type atypical.

This is an exception. Given everything else - the council having to hide from Sylvanas for a long time, the Alliance having to cooperate with them without Sylvanas knowing, Sylvanas immediately ordering to kill would-be defectors - everything, this single act of freeing a single undead is an exception.

You are plainly looking at multiple big facts and a single small fact and are not able to say which is the rule and which is the exception. Because you want to fanboy, consciously or not.