Shoulder and Denial Nerf Inc.

[Fleckens]

You're not taking into account rogues utility though, as well as the fact that on a lot of fights it's boss damage that's the most important. Logs on first 3 aren't really relevant as they are free kill bosses, so we have to look at the last 6. Last 2 don't have enough/any logs but I think just looking at how many rogues were brought to the first kills shows how good they are on those fights. You already showed sisters where rogues were among the top dps, but now lets look at mistress and desolate host which really are all about single target as the adds already die quickly(often too quickly in the case of mistress, as a shadowpriest I often have to not dot the adds at all to be sure they don't die too fast).

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...metric=bossdps here we got boss damage for mistress, while it may be slightly skewed due to rogues having high prio on buffer fish(Try and guess why) they are still incredibly strong here.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...metric=bossdps and here we got desolate host, pretty much same thing.

Now there are definitely also other good classes/specs like demo locks however they do have the weakness of not having very good mobility nor utility, both which are things that sub rogues absolutely shine at.

[Xelion]

Weren't the shoulders also best by a fair bit for outlaw? While it's possible outlaw may need some buffs it's never a bad thing to get legendaries closer to eachother.

Except that every other sub legendary is garbage except for the vigor ring, so people will use the same legendaries (possibly switching from shoulders to ring), and blizzard won't give outlaw any buffs until 7.3 (if they do at all). Nerfing the damage bonus to eviscerate you get from shuriken storming would have been a far more effective nerf if there are no plans to bring up other legendaries. Outlaw is straight up shit tier now, like a 75k dps loss. But in your world that's totally fine, because as you say, legendaries are now closer together in value.

[Xelion]

Weren't the shoulders also best by a fair bit for outlaw? While it's possible outlaw may need some buffs it's never a bad thing to get legendaries closer to eachother.

Except that apart from the vigor ring, sub's other legendaries are complete fucking garbage, so you will only see people possibly switching from shoulders to ring. Given blizzard's hilarious rollercoaster of rogue tuning this expansion, I can almost guarantee that outlaw will not see a buff until 7.3, despite being the spec most heavily affected by the shoulders nerf. If you want to make other legendaries viable, you kind of have to make them be less shit.

The logs you linked just confirm the fact that the ST damage bonus sub gets from being able to shuriken storm adds on Mistress and Host is too strong, why not nerf that instead? Ah nope, better just to fuck over all three specs.

It's truly incredible that someone at blizzard, who presumably has the brainpower to meander on over to WCL, and MIGHT even be able to deduce that Outlaw and Assassination aren't exactly metre-topping superstars, can have signed off on this change. Here, look, imaginary Blizzard 'developer', I'll do it for you.
Shuriken Combo's damage bonus nerfed from 10% to 7.5% per stack (I'm not a theorycrafter, change these numbers if they're unreasonable).
Outlaw and Assassination do 3% more damage.

Yes, cloak and feint are broken, but so is spirit link, roar, and any other number of abilities. I don't have a clue how to fix that without having all dps classes just having one spell called 'bonk' (deals damage).

[Mascotte]

Doubt it really changes much for outlaw tho. You can still build to 5 cp, vanish, Ambush, BtE, MfD and RT within a 5sec window. At most you'll lose the guarenteed SS crit after that but i highly doubt that makes up 5% of our damage.

[Xelion]

Over a 300 second fight, you're losing around 8 seconds of 100% crit (dependent on TB rolls). Atm it looks like sims are showing it as a 75k dps loss in mythic ToS gear. With TB and AR up, you can also get two BTEs in the crit window, I imagine that's gone too. I don't know why I'm replying to you, as you're recommending to build up 5 cps before pressing vanish and Ambush. MfD will probably also be on cooldown, there's no reason it wouldn't be unless it lines up for whatever reason. It is a hugely unwarranted nerf which is another slap in the face for an already weak spec.

Edit: Rogue discord is saying it's around a 50k dps nerf, my bad.

[Mascotte]

So we can seemingly safely asume we have AR, Curse, AND TB up every Vanish but doing the same with MfD is completely unreasonable? Welp okay then..

Ofcourse its a nerf, and the longer the fight the worse it obviously becomes. But in reality the one second lost every vanish wont suddenly break the spec. Outlaw clearly has problems, that are likely just "fixed" by yet another flat damage increase in 7.3 but this isnt the "sky is falling" change.

[Xelion]

At no point did I say that you have those up for every vanish, just that when you do have 1 or more up for it, you might not be able to fit in 2 BtEs in the crit window. But feel free to keep misinterpreting if that's what you want to do.

I'm not loudly proclaiming the apocalypse on the street corner with regards to this change, and people like me who enjoy playing outlaw will surely keep playing it.

My point is simply that I'm baffled that instead of actually nerfing sub, an overperforming spec in certain scenarios (and overall a strong spec), they nerf the BiS legendary for all specs.

I don't want to say that the developers have an easy job, but why not bring the strongest spec more into line with others by nerfing sub a bit AND buffing outlaw/assassination, so people don't feel constrained to one spec. (I'm only in a world 300 guild so I can freely play Outlaw without feeling like a burden).

Edit: typo

[Deleted]

yeah how dare a pure dps class not be mediocre for once

I stopped reading here.

The pure dps argument is a dead horse.

[mauserr]

Weren't the shoulders also best by a fair bit for outlaw? While it's possible outlaw may need some buffs it's never a bad thing to get legendaries closer to eachother.

Yeah, by buffing the dogshit ones, not nerfing the good ones. How fucking stupid are you people? A change like this is not going to make people happy. There is no "balancing the shit ones closer to the good ones". The shit ones are still shit and all we get is a nerf but nothing changes legendary wise.

[Deleted]

I stopped reading here.

The pure dps argument is a dead horse.

The validity of the argument has never changed. Rogues can't just tank whenever we aren't a top tier dps. All pure classes should always have one spec at the sharp end of the meters.

[Sephiroso]

Yeah, by buffing the dogshit ones, not nerfing the good ones. How fucking stupid do you people are? A change like this is not going to make people happy. There is no "balancing the shit ones closer to the good ones". The shit ones are still shit and all we get is a nerf but nothing changes legendary wise.

The irony made me laugh. Though i agree with you completely

[RobertoCarlos]

No buff to sub boots or gloves to make them viable and they just Nerf the two bis. Great logic blizzard. Legendary system has been amazing 10/10 would legion again

[Nekroman]

Where are you getting the CoF nerf from? Im not seeing it.

[Critical92]

They said it will be nerfed with 7.3, maybe even only 7.3.5 not now.
It is just too strong for some specs.

[mauserr]

The irony made me laugh. Though i agree with you completely

Dude, I'm a filthy foreigner speaking more languages than the vast majority of this shit infested forums ever will, add to that me trying to reset my sleep schedule and you get a tiny screw up once in a while. We're not talking about grammar here but Blizzard's ineptitude as far as buffing and nerfing is concerned. Anybody thinking that change was good is fucking stupid, my grammar being bad or not, they're fucking stupid.

There's being shit at balancing and then there's also being Blizzard at balancing. Guess which is worse.

I have no idea how the person responsible for approving these changes (or the people suggesting them) are handling daily activities like waking up and putting their socks on their feet seeing how fucking stupid they are.

Infracted.

[Deleted]

What I find hilarious is the phrasing of the wrist nerf.

Denial of the Half-Giants cooldown reduction reduced to 0.2 seconds per combo point spent (was 0.3 seconds).

The wrists don't reduce anything. They EXTEND the duration of Shadow Blades. They are so fucking clueless they don't even know what their own items actually do.

[pies1]

Far too good? I mean arms warrior were/are significantly ahead on ST(goroth and sisters for example)(https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=2032 & https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=2050)
Meanwhile, subt rogues/mm hunters/demo locks are top, but pretty close together.

But then there's the cleave/oae fights, subt still performing good but nowhwere near the absolute top
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=2048 - inquisition
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=2036 - harja
You can look up the rest if you like.

I get wanting to bring the leggo's closer together, but the nerf of 5% that comes with it is kinda uncalled for. Escpecially when locks (who reigned for the entirety of NH), druids and mm hunters are not being touched.

Arms got nerfed too man. Ayala's (sp) proc rate was reduced by 40% which is way bigger than these two combined.

[Nospmas]

Arms got nerfed too man. Ayala's (sp) proc rate was reduced by 40% which is way bigger than these two combined.

Actually the nerf in BiS gear for arms comes out to 6% and the nerf to sub comes out to 5.6%, but if you take mythic goroth at 90% arms is just a little over 5% ahead of the next closest spec (sub). Meanwhile sub is less then 1% (.7% to be exact) ahead of marks.

[Mascotte]

But feel free to keep misinterpreting if that's what you want to do.

Don't try to take the highroad now; you dismissed anything i said when you tried acting superior with 'i dont know why im even replying to you'..
If im wrong about the rotation mentioned; explain the mistake and correct me, no need to get cocky and then expect a decent response.

On; Mantle needed a nerf, having 1 legendary be BiS by a large margin for all 3 specs is bad design.
Does this screw over Outlaw? Yeah, it kinda does, since the spec is already bottom of the barrel (and has been bare a week after release and a couple days prior to NH).
Doesn't mean the Mantle nerf is unjustified tho.
Just swapping out the Mantle for Ravenholdt (with the replacement gear being far higher ilvl then the ring im replacing btw) im losing 50k dps in simcraft.
Should any legendary really have that much power?
For all 3 specs?
No.

[Eazy]

Dude, I'm a filthy foreigner speaking more languages than the vast majority of this shit infested forums ever will, add to that me trying to reset my sleep schedule and you get a tiny screw up once in a while. We're not talking about grammar here but Blizzard's ineptitude as far as buffing and nerfing is concerned. Anybody thinking that change was good is fucking stupid, my grammar being bad or not, they're fucking stupid.

There's being shit at balancing and then there's also being Blizzard at balancing. Guess which is worse.

I have no idea how the person responsible for approving these changes (or the people suggesting them) are handling daily activities like waking up and putting their socks on their feet seeing how fucking stupid they are.

lol'd, though agreed.

It sucks that the fucked up this legendary system so bad because is all right other wise. Whoever thought this was a good idea to handle legendaries should be fired though.

And people were mocking me when I said that legendary system is shit before the Legion started.