"Auto includes" being used as an excuse to nerf cards yet again?

[Kronik85]

You're right, the hypothetical you just brought up is bizarre and irrelevant.

You brought it up.

According to Vicious's data Aggro Druid's winrate against these decks respectively is 52%, 57%, and 49.5%/51% depending on which priest list you're looking at. In no way are any of these numbers weak matchups. In fact none of them are even unfavorable at all. 49.5% against the resurrection priest list is an even split you can't really call unfavorable.

You're right., I can't read at 5 am apparently.

[Eon Drache]

I don't really care if its auto include. A lot of decks have auto include cards in them right now. However, I do have a problem where I'm getting hit by Ultimate Infestation on turn 5 and my opponent has access to 8-10 mana with a hand of 6-8 cards with a 5/5 on board doing 5 damage and gaining 5 armor. It is a huge turn 5 swing that happens way to often. Lets not forget getting Innervate and flappy bird sets you so far behind on turn 1 it isn't even funny at this point.

inb4 l2p when this kind of thing is CLEARLY dominating atm or everyone needs to L2P.

[Socialhealer]

I don't really care if its auto include. A lot of decks have auto include cards in them right now. However, I do have a problem where I'm getting hit by Ultimate Infestation on turn 5 and my opponent has access to 8-10 mana with a hand of 6-8 cards with a 5/5 on board doing 5 damage and gaining 5 armor. It is a huge turn 5 swing that happens way to often. Lets not forget getting Innervate and flappy bird sets you so far behind on turn 1 it isn't even funny at this point.

inb4 l2p when this kind of thing is CLEARLY dominating atm or everyone needs to L2P.

it's bad, just as bad as big priest getting the rng, pulling y'shaarj from barnes, then another huge minion like lich king/ysera etc turn 4, then if you somehow deal with that he resses it again and again, thats just a coin flip for the game thats almost impossible to turn around.

i mean how many people have answers for a turn 4 and turn 5 ysera or lich king, and the longer you don't answer it the more his hand fills with powerful rng cards.

[Jester Joe]

Because that's the problem.

Infestation is definitely the real issue here, not how early you can get it out.

Remember Ancient of Lore? 7 drop, draw 2 cards or gain 5 health? Apparently that was too powerful.

Now, for 3 more mana, you can draw 5 cards, gain 5 armor, summon a 5/5 (same stats as Ancient), AND deal 5 damage.

If a 7 drop drawing you 2 cards was too OP, why the hell would 3 more mana give you so much

[Blayze]

"X is too powerful!"
> doubles down on X

I just described all Blizzard's balance decisions.

[Hollerino]

Seems balanced to me. You guys need to just keep playing more and not tilt after 3 games.

[deadman1]

Infestation is definitely the real issue here, not how early you can get it out.

Remember Ancient of Lore? 7 drop, draw 2 cards or gain 5 health? Apparently that was too powerful.

Now, for 3 more mana, you can draw 5 cards, gain 5 armor, summon a 5/5 (same stats as Ancient), AND deal 5 damage.

If a 7 drop drawing you 2 cards was too OP, why the hell would 3 more mana give you so much

And the fact that they have spreading plague too which stops their only hard counter dead in their tracks.

[Mahourai]

You brought it up.

No, I didn't. Aggro Druid not playing Infestation or Spreading Plague and still being a tier 1 deck with no bad matchups is a fact, not a hypothetical. "If Aggro Druid were a completely different deck, it might also play Infestation" is irrelevant.

Gadgetzan isn't really used much anymore.

Gadgetzan will always be a threat in the meta because it's a huge draw engine.

Remember Ancient of Lore? 7 drop, draw 2 cards or gain 5 health? Apparently that was too powerful.

Ancient of Lore was a completely fair card that was nerfed into total unplayability.

[Kronik85]

Infestation is definitely the real issue here, not how early you can get it out.

Remember Ancient of Lore? 7 drop, draw 2 cards or gain 5 health? Apparently that was too powerful.

Now, for 3 more mana, you can draw 5 cards, gain 5 armor, summon a 5/5 (same stats as Ancient), AND deal 5 damage.

If a 7 drop drawing you 2 cards was too OP, why the hell would 3 more mana give you so much

What your saying is true, but even phrasing it this way undermines how powerful UI is. The card has knock on effects, like you would never ramp with Nourish unless you had your second copy of Nourish in hand, but now you will actually ramp with Nourish just to get UI off earlier so the effect is compounded.

Because of UI Jade effectively plays as a Tempo deck, I can agree that Auctioneer is a HoF contender but at least Auctioneer is a package where you have to both have Auctioneer in hand alongside synergistic cards and have to evaluate what you can get away with to survive until your Auctioneer swing turn, UI is essentially Auctioneer distilled into 1 card which in turn encourages you to ramp faster into UI making the whole thing degenerate.

Mahourai isn't wrong data wise but I think you have to look at this whole situation through the lens of this being an Anti-Jade meta and Jade still performing well.

- - - Updated - - -

No, I didn't. Aggro Druid not playing Infestation or Spreading Plague and still being a tier 1 deck with no bad matchups is a fact, not a hypothetical. "If Aggro Druid were a completely different deck, it might also play Infestation" is irrelevant..

It's you that was trying to say that UI not being played in Aggro was somehow an indicator as to the power of UI. It isn't.

[Mahourai]

It's you that was trying to say that UI not being played in Aggro was somehow an indicator as to the power of UI. It isn't.

UI is not the fundamental piece unbalancing the class, because the class has other decks that are arguably even stronger that don't play it.

It's possible that UI is also a problem, along with Innervate, but we should ban Innervate first, then see how Jade shapes up without it. If Jade continues to be an oppressive portion of the meta you can work on it then.

[Magnagarde]

Instead of breaking the jade meta, they're breaking the... base druid? It makes absolutely no sense.

The issue are the new cards they've brought in, not the old ones and the ones that are base cards for a class.

[Rennadrel]

Well, Innervate is getting nerfed, but the other Druid cards mentioned are being left alone. Imo, with Jade Druid Innervate is OP late game, it's not particularly worth using early game with any other Druid deck archetype (and Jade Druid is by far the best deck for the class, because nothing else is really viable in standard due to so many cards getting rotated out constantly). Once Jade Druid gets rotated out, what will nerfing Innervate have proven?

[Mahourai]

Well, Innervate is getting nerfed, but the other Druid cards mentioned are being left alone. Imo, with Jade Druid Innervate is OP late game, it's not particularly worth using early game with any other Druid deck archetype (and Jade Druid is by far the best deck for the class, because nothing else is really viable in standard due to so many cards getting rotated out constantly).

Your take is very questionable here. Early Innervates are "not worth using" despite powering Aggro Druid? No other druid decks are viable in Standard? Maybe you should check out a meta breakdown from VS or Tempostorm or something because, hoo boy.

[Rennadrel]

Your take is very questionable here. Early Innervates are "not worth using" despite powering Aggro Druid? No other druid decks are viable in Standard? Maybe you should check out a meta breakdown from VS or Tempostorm or something because, hoo boy.

I was referencing more of the meta for Druids, which is commonly Jade Druid.

But I guess Innervate getting nerfed means it's no longer Winnervate, but it's definitely a strong card early and late game right now. I don't know why they don't just change it to something like "Gain two Mana Crystals this turn, lose a Mana Crystal next turn" (you don't generate a new crystal in other words. Sure, then it's powerful, but it hampers your next turn. I think also it's combination with Wild Growth early game is why it is definitely OP. Or being able to drop a 5 cost card on turn 2 with Coin + Innervate. I only am using a single Innervate in my deck ladder deck, the current nerf plans will probably still keep it, or force it's removal if there is a better option elsewhere. I still think my idea might be a less swing the nerf bat and hit for the grand slam kind of nerf and more of a hit for a single through the gap but still run the risk of getting tagged. Never understood heavy handed nerfs from PvP game developers, rather than incremental changes. Hard to do in HS I know, but still.