WoW without damage meters and combat logs

[Granyala]

Well, you can record your session and listen to it later ... then adjust and redo.

You need fairly expensive equipment for that. Flutes are pretty damn loud, esp in the higher registers and cheap mics do not like that. Believe me I tried. :X
Also, while hearing yourself from an audiences PoV will certainly help (instrument sounds different if you play it yourself), it does not give you intricate feedback on WHAT you need to change to get the sound you want. You only know that this ain't it.

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sounds very boring, how are you supposed to improve when you dont know whats goin on

Typically by having obviouse class mechanics.

EG: FF-XIVs mage has a buff. That enables you to cast your main damage move. So aiming for a maximum uptime of that buff while optimizing movement etc would be possible w/o any log at all.

What wouldn't be possible would be obsession over secondary stats because you had 0 information on that.

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People would find a work around. Some stable boss you could straight DPS and time yourself on, like patchwork.

Shadowpriesting on Dr Boom in Netherstorm! Man the memories.

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And how do you reliably judge what is a "difficult" dps check if you can't compare yourself to the top players and guilds? You're missing sufficient data to even recognize which players are better than others unless you have another way of determining their rotation efficacy.

By seeing that the best of the best fail hard.
Who is the best? Typically players that progress very fast.

[schwarzkopf]

it does not give you intricate feedback on WHAT you need to change to get the sound you want. You only know that this ain't it.

Ah - but you don't need feedback on what you are doing wrong to eventually get better.

You just need to be able to differentiate several performances and what you did in each one.

Damage meters and logs don't tell you what you are doing wrong, they just record what you did - so you can compare. Once you can compare, you can improve.

[nekobaka]

No, people would still calculate stuff in theory and there would always be accepted builds and non accepted builds.
I play an MMO like that (FF-XIV)and, suffice it to say, it sucks flying blind. It just feels bad not being able to gauge your own performance, so I use a 3rd party program to log and parse. (DEVs are ok with it as long as we don't diss players over the values)

Someone mentioned DIII above and I felt the same in that game. The built in stat info did not calculate element damage and abilities only showed base stats. In an RNG based game like DIII making gear choices can get quite confusing even while following guides due to not getting ideal items listed in the guides.

My view is the harder it is made for the average player to get access to information to learn and improve themselves the widens the gap between the average players and the more hardcore. It is an elitist view to want to take information away from people.

[ejpaints]

FFXIV tries the whole no damage meter thing. It doesn't work. People still use 3rd party programs to track it.

[Aggrophobic]

Was wondering what implication of removing combat log numbers on game would be.

Do you think it could ultimately help diversify builds since people and devs would care less about balance, and would create more fun builds, stats, traits and options? Or you think it will outright kill the game today with everyone so used to meters?

Why though?
There would still be the "right build" only it would take a lot more effort to find out if you're doing it right and improving would be much harder.

Not thanks. Horrible idea.

[Alphatorg]

Simcraft doesn't need logs to determine optimal builds. So no, it wouldn't create more diversity in enviroments that care about optimization. And it would severly hinder any kind of competitive content, such as high m+ or mythic raiding. If you want to play in an enviroment where everyone can be a special snowflake join a casual guild.

[Ahovv]

You need fairly expensive equipment for that. Flutes are pretty damn loud, esp in the higher registers and cheap mics do not like that. Believe me I tried. :X
Also, while hearing yourself from an audiences PoV will certainly help (instrument sounds different if you play it yourself), it does not give you intricate feedback on WHAT you need to change to get the sound you want. You only know that this ain't it.

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Typically by having obviouse class mechanics.

EG: FF-XIVs mage has a buff. That enables you to cast your main damage move. So aiming for a maximum uptime of that buff while optimizing movement etc would be possible w/o any log at all.

What wouldn't be possible would be obsession over secondary stats because you had 0 information on that.

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Shadowpriesting on Dr Boom in Netherstorm! Man the memories.

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By seeing that the best of the best fail hard.
Who is the best? Typically players that progress very fast.

And how do people in those "top" guilds choose their core raiders? How do they replace their weakest links, or recognize them to begin with?

It seems like too much trouble without proper combat logging.

So you can understand my skepticism that the "top" guilds in such a game are even remotely close to their potential if they don't have sufficient data to see that one of their guildmates is doing 10% less dps than he should be doing, or specifically what part in the rotation is failing.

While I'm sure there are decent guilds in such a game, if they are lacking the data to recognize when members of that guild are lacking in DPS, they are missing opportunities to improve their roster.

So yeah, proper combat logging would improve every guild in that game.

[Granyala]

Damage meters and logs don't tell you what you are doing wrong

Last time I checked, they do exactly that, once you look past the "DPS" number. Oo
A crap DoT uptime or low cast # of your main nuke for instance are very clear flags of "you did THIS wrong".

You are right though. Often comparing directly is the key to figuring out whether one approach works better than the last.

[Ahovv]

Simcraft doesn't need logs to determine optimal builds. So no, it wouldn't create more diversity in enviroments that care about optimization. And it would severly hinder any kind of competitive content, such as high m+ or mythic raiding. If you want to play in an enviroment where everyone can be a special snowflake join a casual guild.

Combat logging allows for proper rotation testing, which in turn allows for better inputs into Simcraft.

Simcraft doesn't invent the rotations. In fact, there were several points during WoD where the public Arcane Mage preset was not using an optimized rotation with Prophecy of Fear. When I changed it to my customized priorities the sims showed 5% more damage. So yeah, don't blindly rely on the public data/presets.

[Hctaz]

They would have to remove "DPS checks" on bosses. But I don't think it will stop anyone from saying "This is the best build" because I casually play GW2 and I get kicked from groups for not having using the highest DPS build for my profession.

I mean... they would not, though. They've had DPS checks in the game long before damage meters were in the game.

[Ahovv]

I mean... they would not, though. They've had DPS checks in the game long before damage meters were in the game.

Yes, and the tuning on encounters would be based on far less data. Devs would not only be forced into more guesswork (because of zero public combat logging to analyze) for the DPS tuning, but guilds would have less tools to maintain proper DPSing in raids for the reasons I mentioned earlier. Without proper combat logging you cannot hold people accountable for their mistakes, or look for the small things to improve.

So yes, raids can obviously exist without combat logging. But the quality of such raids will be far lower than what is currently pumped out.

[DrStiglit]

Coming from WoW it IS frustrating, I agree.
Still, I love to play the game, actually moreso than playing WoW b/c it's non raid content isn't quite as braindead as WoWs.
I surely would not want to raid savage though. Combat is a bit too imprecise and rough for my taste.

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Off topic:
Welcome to playing the flute. *chuckles*
That's how learning the instrument feels in a lot of places, b/c a ton of it is dependent on personal experimentation, since every human body is different.

I'm thinking that is more of learning your playstyle vs not knowing what you did wrong mechanically. I'm not sure on flute which buttons work for similar notes, but lets say you pressed the correct buttons to play an F# but a B flat came out. You know you're pressing the right buttons but you have no idea why the tone was B flat instead of F#. Now imagine there is no way for you to figure that out.. But there is. You know you have to adjust the airflow going into the flute (maybe? I'm assuming it's similar to trumpet..). Now figuring out how to adjust that airflow is your playstyle. Knowing you have to adjust it is a mechanic. If you don't know you have to adjust, it makes it extremely difficult to find out what is wrong.

It's also been a while, so I may be off in my example, but that's just my current thought!

[Hctaz]

They'd have to make the game A LOT easier for people to be able to actually kill things. Not to mention that you'd have no idea what killed you/wiped the raid

This is really the only downside. There are so many fights in Tomb alone that if you just focus on mechanics and forget about trying to parse, you will have a much easier time killing the boss. People take the slightly more risky option in order to eek out their maximum dps when it could lead to their death, as opposed to backing away 3 or 4 seconds prior to the mechanic happening to guarantee their safety. Stuff like Mythic Maiden for example. That fight is so easy if you just focus on dodging everything and being on time to get your bomb in the hole. You really only need to go all out on damage after the Blowback whenever you get that big damage buff. You have plenty of time to dps unhindered there while that buff lasts before the mechanics start happening again.

[C J]

Was wondering what implication of removing combat log numbers on game would be.

Do you think it could ultimately help diversify builds since people and devs would care less about balance, and would create more fun builds, stats, traits and options? Or you think it will outright kill the game today with everyone so used to meters?

Honestly, I don't even use a dmg meter myself anymore, IMO the only reason to be using one would be for pushing the top tier current content in the game... More fun to not stress about numbers, just enjoy playing what you want, how you wanna play it... Course I'm VERY much in the minority with that point of view, but screw the elitism of how this game has become... It's why it isn't fun anymore =/

[Granyala]

And how do people in those "top" guilds choose their core raiders? How do they replace their weakest links, or recognize them to begin with?

So you can understand my skepticism that the "top" guilds in such a game are even remotely close to their potential if they don't have sufficient data to see that one of their guildmates is doing 10% less dps than he should be doing, or specifically what part in the rotation is failing.

Gut feeling / instinct and, as someone already wrote: find some stable mob with a truckload of HP and use a stopwatch. :X

I absolutely agree on your second point. People won't be able to get as close to the theoretical maximum of their classes w/o such information and the encounter design would have to reflect that.

Doesn't matter though. Over a larger timeframe, the DEVs would gather statistical data. If their best players performed at max at 75%, they would tune the encounters so that they are very hard at 75% and 75% would become the virtual maximum possible.

Lets be honest here: great players will be great, logs or no logs. I have seen black magi doing DPS that knocked my socks off while having 0 clue how to replicate that even WITH access to logs.

[Deleted]

I would not play the game if no meters. Major part fo reason I paly is so se if I improve etc. I dont care for pets, acchivments cosmetic gear transmogs etc only thing I focus on is my dps and dmg

[Granyala]

Yes, and the tuning on encounters would be based on far less data. Devs would not only be forced into more guesswork (because of zero public combat logging to analyze) for the DPS tuning.

Wrong.
DEVs can always log server side. Just because the client doesn't get to see the information, doesn't mean it's not there.

[Ahovv]

Gut feeling / instinct and, as someone already wrote: find some stable mob with a truckload of HP and use a stopwatch. :X

I absolutely agree on your second point. People won't be able to get as close to the theoretical maximum of their classes w/o such information and the encounter design would have to reflect that.

Doesn't matter though. Over a larger timeframe, the DEVs would gather statistical data. If their best players performed at max at 75%, they would tune the encounters so that they are very hard at 75% and 75% would become the virtual maximum possible.

Lets be honest here: great players will be great, logs or no logs. I have seen black magi doing DPS that knocked my socks off while having 0 clue how to replicate that even WITH access to logs.

Yeah, but that's irrelevant.

I can learn rotations myself without reading any guide based on reading every ability I have, their tooltip dmg and each respective cooldown. I was a guide writer in Rift because the other people who tried were fucking awful and giving out inaccurate information.

So yes, without parsers it's still possible I could have played at the same level. But that doesn't mean the general populace doesn't benefit from them, and as a result the developers would be able to pump out even more difficult content.

Whatever defense of this you make, I still don't see the purpose. There is no benefit to removing combat logging, aside from protecting the feelings of players who get offended that there are more optimal ways of playing a game.

[Deleted]

Builds can be fun with dps meters, but builds are not going to be fun if they aren't balanced to some extent because then you'll be like in vanilla where you have 20 of the same class in one raid because they were slightly better than the next best thing. So if anything, no balancing, it would be even worse.

[Pull My Finger]

When i stopped raiding, I also stopped using all of that shit and it's a much better game for me now. Difficult stuff like the Broken Shore appearance thingies I just get a hang of by feeling stuff out and experience. It's much more real gameplay. Raiding is so far detached from real play when you look at it realistically. May be that you can't really do it without all the bar staring and tracking of stuff, but that just shows what kind of content that really is.