Mattis loosens RoE in Afghanistan

[ONCHEhap]

What about collateral damage? Are they human?

Collateral damage will happen no matter what if we fight them,that or we don't fight them and they keep slaughtering innocents unchallenged

What's the worst,some innocent lives lost as collateral damage,or a lot more innocent lives lost due to inaction?

[Machismo]

Well the previous wars did not kill all terrorists.

Collateral damage is SAD!
Still, better to kill 1 innocent to kill 100 terrorists, than let 1 terrorist live that would kill 100 humans.

Is it really better to kill innocents, than to let a terrorist live? I'd say that past experiences in both Iraq and Afghanistan would show otherwise. Killing innocent people creates more terrorists.

Also, like it, or not, terrorists are humans.

Our attempts to destabilize the Middle East have gone very well over the past several decades.

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Collateral damage will happen no matter what if we fight them,that or we don't fight them and they keep slaughtering innocents unchallenged

What's the worst,some innocent lives lost as collateral damage,or a lot more innocent lives lost due to inaction?

Well, it has been shown to create more terrorists, and increase hostility towards the United States. We have two long, exhaustive wars worth of data to show for it.

[s_bushido]

the targetted ones here,aka extremists,should indeed not be considered human

Is this the part where we start going over (inter)national laws and treaties about war? The TL;DR is that no, treating "the enemy" as inhuman is a terrible idea and should never be condoned.

[Deleted]

The best story that came out of Afganistan is :http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurti...6-13a1613f9830

If you read that and still think you are going to 'win' in Afganistan you are deluded. The TLDR :

The American forces are not incompetent. They are being used as weapons in a war that they don't understand.

The investigation makes it clear that the US forces are not simply blundering around in a society they don't comprehend - as many in the anti-war movement argue. The reality is far more complicated.

The western military and their powerful bombs are being ruthlessly manipulated by different groups in Afghanistan. All the Afghans have to do is go to the Americans and describe someone as "Taliban" and they will be annihilated.

There is growing evidence that the raid on Azizabad was not a one-off. That a number of the terrible civilian massacres where villages have been bombed are the direct result of the Americans being told that there are "Taliban" meeting there. It then turns out that their informants were simply using the Americans to wipe out a rival.

[Deleted]

We either dedicate the enormous resources it would take to destroy the enemy in Afghanistan, or we cut our losses and leave. We had our opportunity there, we didn't do what it would have taken, and it's time to come home. They're not worth it.

[Independent voter]

We either dedicate the enormous resources it would take to destroy the enemy in Afghanistan, or we cut our losses and leave. We had our opportunity there, we didn't do what it would have taken, and it's time to come home. They're not worth it.

Well, it's a NATO operation. If Afghanistan is seized by terrorist and becomes a safe haven for terrorists again, EU is going to pay for it, Russia too.

We can't let Muslim countries descend into chaos.

[Deleted]

Well, it's a NATO operation. If Afghanistan is seized by terrorist and becomes a safe haven for terrorists again, EU is going to pay for it, Russia too.

We can't let Muslim countries descend into chaos.

The Taliban are a local movement not a global one. So this is a stretch.

[HumbleDuck]

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Do these people really surprise you anymore?

[Deleted]

Well the previous wars did not kill all terrorists.

Collateral damage is SAD!
Still, better to kill 1 innocent to kill 100 terrorists, than let 1 terrorist live that would kill 100 humans.

I'm very glad to live under a law that makes this kind of math illegal. Germany's §1 Grundgesetz does not allow it - we will not shoot down an air plane with civilians who have still some chance to be alive even if that means this air plane will crush into some stadium with ten thousands of people. There is a great theater play about it that even got filmed ("Terror").

[GreenJesus]

What is RoE?? Only RoE I know is return on equity. What is up with all your acronyms? How the hell am I supposed to know what each one means?

[Egomaniac]

RoE = Rules of Engagement

[Adam Jensen]

SOME muslims ARE peaceful!

Try the vast majority.

Whom, by the way, would appreciate it if people like you would stop blaming them for the actions of a minority of extremists.

[Skroe]

Well the previous wars did not kill all terrorists.

Collateral damage is SAD!
Still, better to kill 1 innocent to kill 100 terrorists, than let 1 terrorist live that would kill 100 humans.

It's "better" until its your family.

And we will never 'kill all the terrorists'. We're actually on our third or fourth "generation" of them. Or do you think the people we're fighting now are the same ones the US has been warring against since 9/11. They're not. These people were six to fifteen years old back then.

Fighting Islamic radicalism with conventional military forces is an ineffective, self defeating and utterly pointless waste of time, lives, resources and money. Terrorism is the job of security services, the police, intelligence agencies, and occasionally special operations. The armed forces must be designed for their core mission, which is far more important: deterring nation state aggressors, namely Russia and China.

Every soldier, aircraft and dollar spent on Afghanistan is one not spent on Asia-Pacific or Europe, where things that actually matter happen.

[Nihilist74]

I guess now we have to stay in Afghanistan forever because we have to prevent the Taliban from taking over Pakistan and gaining access to nuclear weapons. We all would have been better off if america did not interfere with the soviet union taking over Afghanistan in the 80's.

[Skroe]

We either dedicate the enormous resources it would take to destroy the enemy in Afghanistan, or we cut our losses and leave. We had our opportunity there, we didn't do what it would have taken, and it's time to come home. They're not worth it.

This.

Everything Afghanistan since 2004 hass been one gigantic half measure after another.

There is no "win condition" in Afghanistan worth the investment. It's a matter of "should we", and the answer is "no we shouldn't, and we should not have for over 10 years".

The War on Terror is an enormous waste of lives, money and capital of all sorts. We lack elected officials at all levels honest enough to say this. It's not a matter of win or lose. It's a matter of priorities, and Terrorism should be at best, a lower-middle rank one Chronic maintenance of a chronic problem.

[XDurionX]

..until there is a lot of clamor when planes fly into buildings again.

[Skroe]

..until there is a lot of clamor when planes fly into buildings again.

That's where properly funded, properly empowered security services, intelligence agencies and special operations come into play. 9/11 was the culmination of the opposite of that.

This is not a binary thing. The two states are not "ignore the threat" and "treat it as an existential threat". There is an enormous spectrum between that. Islamic Terrorism is a threat, but it is fundamentally not an existential threat.

The United States has blown the war on terror since the beginning because it treated it like a 10 out of 10 emotionally but dedicated the resources of a 5 out of 10, when the threat today is a 3 out of 10.

These insane things people have said, particularly in the last 2 years, about Terrorism? It's crazy. It's absolutely fucking crazy. The United States has not suffered a major islamic terrorist attack since 9/11, and yet some Americans act like we did just recently. That speaks to their need for professional psychological help, not the reality of the threat. ISIS is not coming to small town America to execute the men and gang-rape our daughters. Any American who legitimately fears that... Thorazine... get some.


The biggest threat to US and Western Security today comes from the actions of the revisionist powers - principally Russia and China (Iran and North Korea are also revisionist powers) - at upending the post Wolrd War II and post-Cold War American-led international order. The fact that, as long suspected, evidently Russia hacked an NSA contractor by way of Kaspersky anti-virus, to steal critical information on AMerican Cyber-operations, underscores the complexity and danger.


While we pre-occupy ourselves with ISIS and Al Qaeda, we have been studied, like rats in a cage, by our traditional nation state enemies and they are looking for innovative and effective ways at beating us. The only Winners of the War on Terror are the revisionist powers. America loses every day it fights terrorism on such terms. This is not Obama-era touchy feeling bullshit. "Our values" will not protect us like a Hellfire missile will. But the core failing of American foreign policy and security since 1994 has been the utter and complete failure for the world's only superpower to pick its battles wisely and fight them on its own terms. Instead, we have a knack for fighting them on our enemies terms because we forgot the most important lessons of the Powell Doctrine: be clear why you're doing it, know why you're doing it, know how to end it with finality and be decisive.

Unless America is ready to send 700,000 troops to Afghanistan for the next 40 years, we're not being decisive, so we're wasting time.

[Deleted]

ISIS is not coming to small town America to execute the men and gang-rape our daughters. Any American who legitimately fears that... Thorazine... get some.

I beg to differ good sir!

[Skroe]

I beg to differ good sir!

The people who buy into that crap didn't just lose their War on Terror. They let Islamic Jihadists colonize their very being. This is a video of Osama Bin Laden's utter and complete victory over a segment of Americans. The only thing missing is the black flag flying over their homes. And Obama didn't do that. They did it to themselves.

That candidate should be utterly and completely ashamed of himself for his role. How you win matters and a man like that has no business in office, wearing a badge, or doing anything more than being a two bit blogger.

[Realitytrembles]

It's "better" until its your family.

Frankly, too f-cking bad. It's tragic that anyone innocent is ever killed, but it can't be consistently avoided.

As for Islamic terrorism, they understand only one language: death. When they do something, we should do it back to them far worse. Or as was said in one of my favorite movies (by Sean Connery's character) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Untouchables_(film)

" You wanna know how to get Capone? I'll tell ya. He pulls a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That's the Chicago way, and that's how you get Capone."

I would advise anyone in the vicinity of terrorists to run like hell. The bald eagle is pissed, and the claws are out.