Blizzard Diversity and Inclusion hiring initiative

[Strangewayes]

I was wondering what other people thought of Blizzards announced worldwide Diversity and Inclusion policy.

Personally I think it's a bad idea to have diversity quotas at companies. You are essentially turning down qualified passionate applicants for jobs in exchange for people either less qualified or less passionate in order to meet quotas of gender and ethnicity.

I think this will result in a drop of standards in Blizzard games, as they hire people either underqualified, or disinterested in the industry they are working in, or at worst, people who are simply political idealogues interested in positions to make a political statement rather that because they have an interest in games or gaming. (eg: see Bioware)

[DrMcNinja]

It's a weird thing. There's evidence where mixing genders on the workfloor is very much beneficial due to both having qualities that complement eachother. In fact, there's plenty of companies who want to hire more women, but simply can't because there's just not enough qualified women on the market.

A quota is fine as an aspiration, not as a necessity.

[Skroe]

I'm gonna knee-cap this entire issue for you. You're talking about something that exists, at best, only in theory. In practice, except maybe for the largest firms like Google, it's not a thing.

I don't work in the Video Game industry. I work in robotics (still, computers). At least on the software side of the game industry (not the art side) people do jump around various subfields in the broader industry.

You want to make a stink about diversity hiring? You should make a stink about American production of qualified software engineers. It's a joke. It truly is. So much of the company I work at is foreign. Undergrad and grad school was foreign. My company today cannot hire enough qualified people to fill the team openings we have.

That's why I find it quaint to even discuss, or be remotely "bothered" by any kind of diversity initiative. It's not like the broader software industry is operating at a personnel surplus, particularly of Americans. Even with an enormous foreign born workforce, its a sharp deficit, and the best of the best people are hard to get.

And on top of that, nobody with a brain is seriously rushing to work in Video Gaming of all things.

Go look at how many "Senior" engineering jobs Blizzard has open:
https://careers.blizzard.com/en-us/openings

Minimum requirements for a Senior Software Engineer?
"Advanced understanding of C / C++
A minimum of 3 years’ application programming experience
Experience working with game engines
Strong mathematics skills"

Jesus christ, I had that 10 years ago. Any 24 year old programmer worth a shit would (I'm 34). I've been programming in C++ since I was 14 for fucks sake. And I'm not even special in that regard.

But there the jobs are, and they linger. Because the video game industry doesn't remotely pay enough to be competitive with other sub-fields. In fact, you'd have to be out of your fucking mind to have a degree and /or post-grad degree and work for Blizzard. Love of game goes far. Wad of money goes further. I'd probably make half what I do applying to a video game company.

Before we get our pants in a tizzy about *gasp* a field with not enough people in it hiring based on ethnic, racial or sexual background in part, I think the much, much larger issue is why this country produces so many worthless MBAs and so few Masters of Science. Because that's the problem. When there is an actual glut of talent that'll be forced to take low paying Game Industry jobs, then maybe we can talk about how its sorted.

[Garnier Fructis]

I was wondering what other people thought of Blizzards announced worldwide Diversity and Inclusion policy.

Personally I think it's a bad idea to have diversity quotas at companies. You are essentially turning down qualified passionate applicants for jobs in exchange for people either less qualified or less passionate in order to meet quotas of gender and ethnicity.

I think this will result in a drop of standards in Blizzard games, as they hire people either underqualified, or disinterested in the industry they are working in, or at worst, people who are simply political idealogues interested in positions to make a political statement rather that because they have an interest in games or gaming. (eg: see Bioware)

The big issue I have with this argument every time it comes up is that these people being less qualified or less passionate is presented as an assumption, instead of being justified.

[Strangewayes]

I'm gonna knee-cap this entire issue for you. You're talking about something that exists, at best, only in theory. In practice, except maybe for the largest firms like Google, it's not a thing.

I don't work in the Video Game industry. I work in robotics (still, computers). At least on the software side of the game industry (not the art side) people do jump around various subfields in the broader industry.

You want to make a stink about diversity hiring? You should make a stink about American production of qualified software engineers. It's a joke. It truly is. So much of the company I work at is foreign. Undergrad and grad school was foreign. My company today cannot hire enough qualified people to fill the team openings we have.

That's why I find it quaint to even discuss, or be remotely "bothered" by any kind of diversity initiative. It's not like the broader software industry is operating at a personnel surplus, particularly of Americans. Even with an enormous foreign born workforce, its a sharp deficit, and the best of the best people are hard to get.

Go look at how many "Senior" engineering jobs Blizzard has open:
https://careers.blizzard.com/en-us/openings

Minimum requirements for a Senior Software Engineer?
"Advanced understanding of C / C++
A minimum of 3 years’ application programming experience
Experience working with game engines
Strong mathematics skills"

Jesus christ, I had that 10 years ago. Any 24 year old programmer worth a shit would (I'm 34). I've been programming in C++ since I was 14 for fucks sake.

But there the jobs are, and they linger. Because the video game industry doesn't remotely enough to be competitive with other fields. In fact, you'd have to be out of your fucking mind to have a degree and /or post-grad degree and work for Blizzard. Love of game goes far. Wad of money goes further.

Before we get our pants in a tizzy about *gasp* a field with not enough people in it hiring based on ethnic, racial or sexual background in part, I think the much, much larger issue is why this country produces so many worthless MBAs and so few Masters of Science. Because that's the problem. When there is an actual glut of talent that'll be forced to take low paying Game Industry jobs, then maybe we can talk about how its sorted.

Well when everyones wants to be a Philosophy or Gender Studies major. Programming is haaaard.

[Kufell]

I'm not a fan of "Diversity Quotas" due to how many of the ones that have been publicly announced have eluded to the fact they'll pick people based over their ethnicity/gender/etc rather than their ability to do the job, it's the wrong way to go about doing it as they're essentially trying to cure perceived discrimination with actual discrimination against certain people.

However - from what I've read of how Blizzard plans to tackle this I have no issue. From what I understand, Blizzard plans to work with groups to hire more women and learn what they can do as a company to get those women to stay at the company longer. Looking into the reasons they leave more frequently than men might be beneficial.

[Skroe]

Well when everyones wants to be a Philosophy or Gender Studies major. Programming is haaaard.

Except that's not a thing either. The most popular Majors are Business Administration and Management, Psychology, Nursing, Biology, Criminal Justice and Accounting.


The problem isn't those niche "liberal" fields that probably upset you. The problem is too many Americans going into Business. And keep in mind, that's just college. There is ZERO reason why somebody who goes into Biology or Criminal Justice can't get a job in the software industry, if they take a couple years of training themselves or night courses or some post-graduate thing. You don't have to actually be a Computer Science major to work in the Computer industry.

But that doesn't happen. And on top of that, American's math skills as a whole, are really weak. I did Multivariable Calculus and Linear Algebra in High School. That is rare in America. That is common elsewhere in the world.

So what are you talking about here? Really? That Blizzard has made a statement about hiring based on non-competency factors in jobs they, like everybody else, aren't exactly swimming in applicants over? I hate to break it to you, but a video game company isn't exactly going to have the pick of the litter.

Why work for Blizzard, when you can make three times as much down the road. I knew a guy who worked at Carbine... good friend of mine. He actually worked on TBC and Wrath before he went to Carbine (and before that, at Ion Storm Austin). We both got our "start" in gaming in the 1990s with modding. He left the industry when he turned 30 and started to want things, and realized the hours and the pay at Carbine was a joke.

This entire discussing is predicated on an entire fiction: that, at least on the Software side of things, video game jobs have some kind of exclusivity to them. Oh hell no.

[Strangewayes]

Except that's not a thing either. The most popular Majors are Business Administration and Management, Psychology, Nursing, Biology, Criminal Justice and Accounting.


The problem isn't those niche "liberal" fields that probably upset you. The problem is too many Americans going into Business. And keep in mind, that's just college. There is ZERO reason why somebody who goes into Biology or Criminal Justice can't get a job in the software industry, if they take a couple years of training themselves or night courses or some post-graduate thing. You don't have to actually be a Computer Science major to work in the Computer industry.

But that doesn't happen. And on top of that, American's math skills as a whole, are really weak. I did Multivariable Calculus and Linear Algebra in High School. That is rare in America. That is common elsewhere in the world.

So what are you talking about here? Really? That Blizzard has made a statement about hiring based on non-competency factors in jobs they, like everybody else, aren't exactly swimming in applicants over? I hate to break it to you, but a video game company isn't exactly going to have the pick of the litter.

Well my post was a joke. But if the industry is so terrible, and people are so underpaid and the hours are shit, why do people like your friend go to work with them for years until they realize they are worth more?

[Fincayra]

I don't have a problem with wanting to be more diverse. I just have a problem with taking a public stance and firing people simply to meet management quotas.

[Styxz]

Depending on the industry, if you look around your workplace, it's clear as day why companies do need these types of HR initiatives. I can count the black people at my company on two hands — the black women on one. And this is a fairly large company... 200+ or so employees at my location alone.

[Skroe]

Well my post was a joke. But if the industry is so terrible, and people are so underpaid and the hours are shit, why do people like your friend go to work with them for years until they realize they are worth more?

Because when you're 21 years old, working in Video Games sounds awesome. And some people, particularly in their 20s, put aside financial concerns for creative priorities.

It's really as simple as that. Nobody knows dick-all until they've worked a few jobs. My first job out of college was consulting at a middle-man venture capital firm. I was paid a stupid amount of money. But I came to appreciate that the high standards I had for my own projects before I wanted to show them off were totally self inflicted. Investors throw money at basically anything and are too stupid or too reckless to ask the hard questions. Blew my mind at the time.

But yes, the video game industry is a stupid career if you're a software engineer. Again, might be different for artists.

[Very Tired]

We had a rather long thread on this recently. Could probably find it if you search for it a bit.


But yeah, at the end of the day diversity hiring is factually racism/sexism... which is a point pro-diversity people make sure to spin their way around.

[Mormolyce]

Every major employer has diversity policies. It's basically a non issue everywhere I've worked.

So the internet getting triggered over it is just comical to me.

I'm gonna knee-cap this entire issue for you. You're talking about something that exists, at best, only in theory. In practice, except maybe for the largest firms like Google, it's not a thing.

I don't work in the Video Game industry. I work in robotics (still, computers). At least on the software side of the game industry (not the art side) people do jump around various subfields in the broader industry.

You want to make a stink about diversity hiring? You should make a stink about American production of qualified software engineers. It's a joke. It truly is. So much of the company I work at is foreign. Undergrad and grad school was foreign. My company today cannot hire enough qualified people to fill the team openings we have.

That's why I find it quaint to even discuss, or be remotely "bothered" by any kind of diversity initiative. It's not like the broader software industry is operating at a personnel surplus, particularly of Americans. Even with an enormous foreign born workforce, its a sharp deficit, and the best of the best people are hard to get.

Yeah it's rather hilarious when the technical workforce I work with regularly (and in fact pretty much the whole business) is if anything more diverse than the country itself. Because it has to be in a globalised workplace.

And on top of that, nobody with a brain is seriously rushing to work in Video Gaming of all things.

Now that's just patently untrue, it's a highly competitive field like anything related to entertainment. Even with its horrible reputation for working hours, pay etc.

- - - Updated - - -

Well when everyones wants to be a Philosophy or Gender Studies major. Programming is haaaard.

Programming is actually much easier than either of those.

[Seramore]

I'm gonna knee-cap this entire issue for you. You're talking about something that exists, at best, only in theory. In practice, except maybe for the largest firms like Google, it's not a thing.

I don't work in the Video Game industry. I work in robotics (still, computers). At least on the software side of the game industry (not the art side) people do jump around various subfields in the broader industry.

You want to make a stink about diversity hiring? You should make a stink about American production of qualified software engineers. It's a joke. It truly is. So much of the company I work at is foreign. Undergrad and grad school was foreign. My company today cannot hire enough qualified people to fill the team openings we have.

That's why I find it quaint to even discuss, or be remotely "bothered" by any kind of diversity initiative. It's not like the broader software industry is operating at a personnel surplus, particularly of Americans. Even with an enormous foreign born workforce, its a sharp deficit, and the best of the best people are hard to get.

And on top of that, nobody with a brain is seriously rushing to work in Video Gaming of all things.

Go look at how many "Senior" engineering jobs Blizzard has open:
https://careers.blizzard.com/en-us/openings

Minimum requirements for a Senior Software Engineer?
"Advanced understanding of C / C++
A minimum of 3 years’ application programming experience
Experience working with game engines
Strong mathematics skills"

Jesus christ, I had that 10 years ago. Any 24 year old programmer worth a shit would (I'm 34). I've been programming in C++ since I was 14 for fucks sake. And I'm not even special in that regard.

But there the jobs are, and they linger. Because the video game industry doesn't remotely pay enough to be competitive with other sub-fields. In fact, you'd have to be out of your fucking mind to have a degree and /or post-grad degree and work for Blizzard. Love of game goes far. Wad of money goes further. I'd probably make half what I do applying to a video game company.

Before we get our pants in a tizzy about *gasp* a field with not enough people in it hiring based on ethnic, racial or sexual background in part, I think the much, much larger issue is why this country produces so many worthless MBAs and so few Masters of Science. Because that's the problem. When there is an actual glut of talent that'll be forced to take low paying Game Industry jobs, then maybe we can talk about how its sorted.

You're delusional if you don't believe that other companies don't have diversity agendas.

With that said, I don't think Blizzard is guilty of having this agenda. It can be pretty rampant for other companies though, and ones that aren't involved with video gaming. They're lowering themselves and their quality of workers to look good in the public eyes and make it seem that they're fighting a stereotype that doesn't exist.

Programming is actually much easier than either of those.

Yeah, when you're talking about education. I would imagine forcing yourself through a gender studies degree is probably one of the hardest things you could make yourself do when it comes down to getting a major.

[Mormolyce]

But yeah, at the end of the day diversity hiring is factually racism/sexism... which is a point pro-diversity people make sure to spin their way around.

From the article:

Morhaime went on to say that Blizzard does not plan to have "quotas" for new hires. However, Blizzard plans to work with groups like Girls Who Code and other women's groups to find candidates.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not a fan of "Diversity Quotas" due to how many of the ones that have been publicly announced have eluded to the fact they'll pick people based over their ethnicity/gender/etc rather than their ability to do the job, it's the wrong way to go about doing it as they're essentially trying to cure perceived discrimination with actual discrimination against certain people.

I very much doubt any employer gives a job to a candidate they believe is unqualified. Usually, when this is even an issue, there are multiple qualified candidates which the employer has to choose from. That's what I've seen happen whenever I've been involved in hiring. Sometimes there are a suite of good candidates and the ultimate decision comes down to minor things that don't actually have any bearing on how fit they are to do the job.

If there's a candidate who's a clear stand-out in ability, you just hire them immediately. You're competing with other businesses to hire talent, you're not going to let it go if you see it.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, when you're talking about education. I would imagine forcing yourself through a gender studies degree is probably one of the hardest things you could make yourself do when it comes down to getting a major.

IMO all the humanities are harder than "STEM" fields. You have to do a lot of research, write long ass papers and give nuanced answers to questions. And then hope your professor likes what you wrote, because it's all subjective.

That's why I did maths. You learn the method, apply the method, and your answer is either right or wrong. Homework complete.

[Mister Cheese]

Third post in is why a programmers union should exist.

[Seramore]

IMO all the humanities are harder than "STEM" fields.

If I didn't have a post questioning the existence of dinosaurs in my signature, I would quote this post. Writing long papers is harder than being in a STEM field? What a joke.

[Mormolyce]

If I didn't have a post questioning the existence of dinosaurs in my signature, I would quote this post. Writing long papers is harder than being in a STEM field? What a joke.

Programming is rote learning. You could teach a monkey. Given some of the code I've seen, I think they do...

Literary critique requires insight and understanding.

For some examples.

[Seramore]

Literary critique requires insight and understanding.

For some examples.

coincidentally, so does programming

[Collegeguy]

It led to the fall of Bioware for sure.