Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Themius]

Anti-Semitism to Republicans doesn't mean to be any Jewish people. They couldn't care less about your feelings towards Jewish people. Half of them have a swastika in their bedroom. They only care how you feel towards Israel. By that they mean you must be in favor of everything Israel does and some or you're an 'anti-semite'.

Gotta keep Israel in Jewish hands so that Jesus can come back and start the end of times.

Literally... that's the rationale quite a few lawmakers gave.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

A simple,'I don't agree with what he said' or in the case of Muslims, 'that's not our Islam' is enough. A handful of Republicans have come out as of now.

I don’t think it should be expected for people to have to go out of there way justify them selfs because some one comply unrelated to them did something wrong/stupid rather they be a Muslim republican or any other group.

[Wyrt]

The problem is, and I saw this on Twitter and it's true, people abhor these comments from Trump, and would like them to cease, but if you asked these people if they're willing to give up their healthcare plans to make it cease, they'd probably balk and say, "Well, Trump gonna Trump." I'm sure there are lots of Republicans who'd love to condemn Trump, but they take one look at the opposition and their goals, and it scares them. So they give Trump the old crazy uncle treatment, where everything he says is inappropriate but you just sort of get used to it.

The Democratic response to Trump was to veer hard left, and it puts the moderate majority in a tough spot.

If you think Democrats are hard left then you're just insane. Democrats are by and large center right. Some have begun moving into actually being center left for the first time in decades, so that's probably what you're confusing for hard left.

Democrats are the moderate party. Republicans are the extreme party.

[Wilfire]

If you want to understand why people support Trump being racist against congresswomen, you have to understand that people (especially young white men) feel disfranchised.

You can't criticize migrants because it's racist. You can't criticize women because it's sexist. You can't criticize other countries because it's bigoted. You can't criticize drug addicts because they are victims of circumstances. You can't criticize the left because that makes you a nazi.

Then Trump comes along and does all of those things and he does them so successfully that he is never punished by society but is, on the contrary, praised. Of course people who feel disfranchised are going to support him.

If you want people to stop supporting Trump and turning to the far right in general, stop this fucking self-flagellation madness with victimhood olympics. Everyone should be open to criticism.

[cubby]

If you want to understand why people support Trump being racist against congresswomen, you have to understand that people (especially young white men) feel disfranchised.

You can't criticize migrants because it's racist. You can't criticize women because it's sexist. You can't criticize other countries because it's bigoted. You can't criticize drug addicts because they are victims of circumstances. You can't criticize the left because that makes you a nazi.

Then Trump comes along and does all of those things and he does them so successfully that he is never punished by society but is, on the contrary, praised. Of course people who feel disfranchised are going to support him.

If you want people to stop supporting Trump and turning to the far right in general, stop this fucking self-flagellation madness with victimhood olympics. Everyone should be open to criticism.

And you've effectively stated the problem that the right will never understand. You can criticize anyone without being any of those things. I can criticize a black man without being racist (I'm a white male - pale, stale, and male). I can criticize a woman without being sexist. Etc. What people can't do anymore is be sexist and racist. And the fact that we elected someone who is all of that and more is indicative of a rot that still needs to be carved out of this country. If that makes life harder for some, who fucking cares. Life was downright awful for those victims of racism and sexism in the past. It's someone else's turn for awhile.

Asking people to stop being racist and sexist isn't victimhood. It's realizing we are no longer in the 1950's anymore. Time for everyone to grow up and grow as a person. Those who can't are going to get left behind.

- - - Updated - - -

If you think Democrats are hard left then you're just insane. Democrats are by and large center right. Some have begun moving into actually being center left for the first time in decades, so that's probably what you're confusing for hard left.

Democrats are the moderate party. Republicans are the extreme party.

And Republicans are only getting worse by the literal day. See Trump's daily actions without any GOP's calling him out and seeking impeachment.

[Endus]

If you want to understand why people support Trump being racist against congresswomen, you have to understand that people (especially young white men) feel disfranchised.

You can't criticize migrants because it's racist. You can't criticize women because it's sexist. You can't criticize other countries because it's bigoted. You can't criticize drug addicts because they are victims of circumstances. You can't criticize the left because that makes you a nazi.

Then Trump comes along and does all of those things and he does them so successfully that he is never punished by society but is, on the contrary, praised. Of course people who feel disfranchised are going to support him.

If you want people to stop supporting Trump and turning to the far right in general, stop this fucking self-flagellation madness with victimhood olympics. Everyone should be open to criticism.

Well, that's a whopping dose of entitled bullshit.

The people feeling that way aren't disenfranchised. Their problem is that they're not longer the advantaged few, who can get away with victimizing and abusing everyone else willy-nilly. They're schoolyard bullies bitching that the principal will expel them if they slam just one more nerd into the lockers. As if they're entitled to slam nerds into lockers.

Those shitheads can all learn to grow the fuck up and stop being entitled little dickheads, and join the rest of the world. If they can't handle that, they can thrash and moan.

They can't hit other groups without getting hit back. That's what they're bitching about. They can dish it out, but can't take it. They're pathetic, and only deserve scorn and mockery.

[Captain N]

If you want people to stop supporting Trump and turning to the far right in general, stop this fucking self-flagellation madness with victimhood olympics. Everyone should be open to criticism.

There's a difference in criticism and being openly hateful and cheering on the suffering of other people.

Do you support these disenfranchised people making threats of violence?

[Dontrike]

The problem is, and I saw this on Twitter and it's true, people abhor these comments from Trump, and would like them to cease, but if you asked these people if they're willing to give up their healthcare plans to make it cease, they'd probably balk and say, "Well, Trump gonna Trump." I'm sure there are lots of Republicans who'd love to condemn Trump, but they take one look at the opposition and their goals, and it scares them. So they give Trump the old crazy uncle treatment, where everything he says is inappropriate but you just sort of get used to it.

The Democratic response to Trump was to veer hard left, and it puts the moderate majority in a tough spot.

Apparently calling Trump out for being the idiot he is is now considered "veering hard left".

[PACOX]

I don’t think it should be expected for people to have to go out of there way justify them selfs because some one comply unrelated to them did something wrong/stupid rather they be a Muslim republican or any other group.

You're right. But you don't see those Muslims standing next to the radical groups hours after an incident. There's ways to distance yourself from someone acting a fool and there's ways to be a passive participant.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You're right. But you don't see those Muslims standing next to the radical groups hours after an incident. There's ways to distance yourself from someone acting a fool and there's ways to be a passive participant.

Well ya I’d there actually hanging out with said people I’d expect something other wise nan.

[Hinastorm]

If you want to understand why people support Trump being racist against congresswomen, you have to understand that people (especially young white men) feel disfranchised.

You can't criticize migrants because it's racist. You can't criticize women because it's sexist. You can't criticize other countries because it's bigoted. You can't criticize drug addicts because they are victims of circumstances. You can't criticize the left because that makes you a nazi.

Then Trump comes along and does all of those things and he does them so successfully that he is never punished by society but is, on the contrary, praised. Of course people who feel disfranchised are going to support him.

If you want people to stop supporting Trump and turning to the far right in general, stop this fucking self-flagellation madness with victimhood olympics. Everyone should be open to criticism.

While your correct why this is a big part in trumps "appeal" to deplorables, your solution is asinine.

Not all "criticism" is equal, sorry. Criticizing blacks for being black is not the same as criticizing an unstable president doing unstable things. Criticizing women for being born female is just objectively dumb.Criticizing the squad, and telling them to go back to their countrys cause they aren't white, is just plain racism. Just for a couple examples.

These people emboldened by trump are not capable of being "won over" and most of us on the left are realizing that. They have no place in our world. If the left acting like humans who care for other humans pushes these people to the right, let them go.

The left appealing to anyone capable of voting for trump, should be a dead idea.

[Jeezy911]

Well, that's a whopping dose of entitled bullshit.

The people feeling that way aren't disenfranchised. Their problem is that they're not longer the advantaged few, who can get away with victimizing and abusing everyone else willy-nilly.

So lower class,poor white voters in the Midwest were advantaged? Probably the most disadvantaged group in the US right now.

[Endus]

So lower class,poor white voters in the Midwest were advantaged? Probably the most disadvantaged group in the US right now.

Compared to those they wanted to victimize without repercussion?

Yes.

That they could victimize those people without repercussion demonstrates that, conclusively.

All this whinging about "unfairness", and the only thing these people are facing is the horrible specter of being treated exactly like everyone else.

[Elegiac]

The problem is, and I saw this on Twitter and it's true, people abhor these comments from Trump, and would like them to cease, but if you asked these people if they're willing to give up their healthcare plans to make it cease, they'd probably balk and say, "Well, Trump gonna Trump." I'm sure there are lots of Republicans who'd love to condemn Trump, but they take one look at the opposition and their goals, and it scares them. So they give Trump the old crazy uncle treatment, where everything he says is inappropriate but you just sort of get used to it.

The Democratic response to Trump was to veer hard left, and it puts the moderate majority in a tough spot.

I'm sorry? "People are willing to excuse racism because they're afraid of single payer healthcare"?

That's a gigantic crock of shit and you know it.

[Jeezy911]

Compared to those they wanted to victimize without repercussion?

Yes.

That they could victimize those people without repercussion demonstrates that, conclusively.

All this whinging about "unfairness", and the only thing these people are facing is the horrible specter of being treated exactly like everyone else.

Except they are not treated equal. What all white college can they attend? Affirmative action? Minority quotas? In an effort to equal the lines, we have the exact thing these same people claim to be against in the opposite direction. Now they are pushing even further into reparations talk, it's the exact same thing as Jim Crow laws. One group is deemed superior because of race.


Infracted.

[Wilfire]

While your correct why this is a big part in trumps "appeal" to deplorables, your solution is asinine.

Not all "criticism" is equal, sorry. Criticizing blacks for being black is not the same as criticizing an unstable president doing unstable things. Criticizing women for being born female is just objectively dumb.Criticizing the squad, and telling them to go back to their countrys cause they aren't white, is just plain racism. Just for a couple examples.

These people emboldened by trump are not capable of being "won over" and most of us on the left are realizing that. They have no place in our world. If the left acting like humans who care for other humans pushes these people to the right, let them go.

The left appealing to anyone capable of voting for trump, should be a dead idea.

No, it's not. But minorities will often spin criticism as racist / sexist attacks upon them. You could for example criticize some African country for having corrupt governance and all the SJWs will come out of the woodwork to tear you apart for "misunderstanding their cultural heritage" or whatever. The Trump problem has a twofold solution. You have to fight back the outright fascists who support Trump but you also have to fight back minorities who abuse their minority status to get ahead which ends up driving people towards far right candidates since the left is willfully ignorant and won't do anything about the aforementioned problem.

[Elegiac]

If you want to understand why people support Trump being racist against congresswomen, you have to understand that people (especially young white men) feel disfranchised.

You can't criticize migrants because it's racist. You can't criticize women because it's sexist. You can't criticize other countries because it's bigoted. You can't criticize drug addicts because they are victims of circumstances. You can't criticize the left because that makes you a nazi.

Then Trump comes along and does all of those things and he does them so successfully that he is never punished by society but is, on the contrary, praised. Of course people who feel disfranchised are going to support him.

If you want people to stop supporting Trump and turning to the far right in general, stop this fucking self-flagellation madness with victimhood olympics. Everyone should be open to criticism.

No, this is false.

If it were true, the 2016 demographics wouldn't have broken down the way they did. I.e. with white people voting for Trump, and everyone else voting for Clinton. I'll refer you to this prior post of mine, ironically enough in reply to @Dacien:

Yes, it is. Because Trump is not "just another Republican" - he is the first President in a long time to have won on a White America campaign message. I'm going to ignore the inevitable "Donald Trump didn't win because of racism" garbage you'll reply with because, quite frankly, I'm not interested in hearing McCarthy's excuses.

Hillary was a bad candidate, yes, but saying that she lost ignores a very important question: Why was Donald Trump electorally viable to the degree that he was? Why was it Clinton versus Trump and not another Clinton versus Bush? So we're going to ignore Clinton entirely in our assessment, and focus on the reasons why people voted for Trump, and what context that exists in.

Here are the usual excuses:

- "He promised to drain the swamp."
- "He speaks his mind."
- "His voters responded to economic anxiety."
- "His campaign resonated with those who have been left behind."

Where these excuses fall apart is in the demographic breakdown. Trump did not universally appeal to people who had an axe to grind with the establishment, or people who were economically anxious, or social outcasts. No, there was only one demographic that was receptive to his message: White people.

People say "Trump ran as a moderate"; no, he didn't. One of the things a lot of analysts commented on at the time was the lack of elaborated policies in contrast to the traditional stump speeches and manifestos. So what did he run on, explicitly?

- Calling Mexicans rapists and criminals
- Banning Muslim immigration
- Building a wall to keep illegal immigrants out
- National stop and frisk

We also know from a lot of statistical sources that hostile sexism and denial of racism were significantly more predictive of voting for Trump than "economic anxiety" as detailed both in this study as well as the graphic below:



Additionally, lack of education was *significantly* predictive, as shown in this study. Here's a fun excerpt:

Lack of a college education was persistently noted as the strongest predictor of Trump support. This pattern led journalists with limited date toward economic explanations. However, education is also the strongest predictor of support for international trade, a relationship that is not tied to income or occupation so much as ethnocentrism. Negative attitudes towards racial and ethnic diversity are also correlated with low levels of education. In this election, education represented group status threat rather than being left behind economically. Those who felt that the hierarchy was being upended - with whites discriminated against more thank blacks, Christians discriminated against more than Muslims, and men discriminated against more than women - were most likely to support Trump.

Why does it matter whether Trump's support was driven by being left behind economically, as opposed to a sense that one's status in the domestic or international level has suffered? Some workers obviously have suffered financially, even if the general trend is toward improvement. However, these losses were not politicized when it came to voting in 2016. Trump's victory may be viewed more admirably when it is attributed to a groundswell of support from previously ignored workers than when it is attributed to those whose status is threatened by minorities and foreign countries. More importantly, elected officials who embrace the left behind narrative may feel compelled to pursue policies that will do little to assuage the fears of less educated Americans. Furthermore, Trump's "us vs. them" rhetoric does little to lead whites and minorities or Americans and foreigners to view one another in less threatening ways, and it calls to whites' attention the fact that they are already doing quite well relative to minority groups and relative to those in the countries they often find threatening.

Sidenote: Perceptions of the economy do not determine political preference, but the inverse. People's view of the economy is strongly conditioned by their attitude towards incumbents. Keeping this in mind...it's easy to see why there are high levels of economic dissatisfaction among Trump voters, since they viewed the economy as worse off based on their perceptions of their predecessor.

Speaking of. Let's compare Obama with Trump. The former was educated, well spoken, had a stable, loving nuclear family, and never suffered from a personal scandal in office. Trump is...not that. Why, then, did people vote for him? Why did people find his crassness, his horrible temperament, his lack of qualifications, his lack of knowledge in general, and his obsession with denigrating his opponents appealing, rather than noxious? If economic hardship wasn't the reason, if elaborated policies weren't the reason...We have a simple explanation.

Donald Trump won the 2016 election because affirming the primacy of whiteness is still an issue of importance to many white voters.

There it is, in the simplest of terms. White supremacy hates genuine meritocracy, because meritocracy by definition enables people to rise by their talents rather than their race or gender. And to guard against genuine meritocracy, this means that everything *of* merit has to be sacrificed. The entitlement gets so profound that many white voters are willing to sacrifice the economic benefits to their class in exchange for seeing white primacy preserved - that is why they stick with him despite the tariffs, and the maladministration.

Again: Donald Trump's behavior is a feature, not a bug. He won the GOP primary and was propelled to the White House because a large swathe of white voters wanted to send a message to America after 8 years of a black President who successfully navigated the ship of state:

"The worst of us should still be given deference over the best of you."

So there you have it, Dacien. An empirical demonstration of why, despite all your whinging and desperate appeals to people's good nature, there is nothing redeeming about your decision or continued support of the GOP and of Donald Trump. And why people have every goddamn right to be enraged.

[Jeezy911]

Nobody even seems to understand the effect of these tweets, Trump knew exactly what he doing. While everyone on the left predictably melts down, it's a political win for Trump. The 4 people mentioned are extremely unpopular even in their own districts/ Like 10-15% approval unpopular in the mainstream. But the real point of the tweet is to now start a brand: Those who like america and those that don't. This will be the foundation of his 2020 campaign.

[Hinastorm]

No, it's not. But minorities will often spin criticism as racist / sexist attacks upon them. You could for example criticize some African country for having corrupt governance and all the SJWs will come out of the woodwork to tear you apart for "misunderstanding their cultural heritage" or whatever. The Trump problem has a twofold solution. You have to fight back the outright fascists who support Trump but you also have to fight back minorities who abuse their minority status to get ahead which ends up driving people towards far right candidates since the left is willfully ignorant and won't do anything about the aforementioned problem.

I agree that pulling the race card where it's not relevant is not great. It wouldn't happen if minoritys weren't so used to getting shit on for so long though.

Also, some minoritys are inherently disadvantaged. The average white household net worth is something like 10x that of black households. They start behind, expecting them to not seize advantages like affirmative action, and other equalizing methods, is unreasonable.

- - - Updated - - -

Nobody even seems to understand the effect of these tweets, Trump knew exactly what he doing. While everyone on the left predictably melts down, it's a political win for Trump. The 4 people mentioned are extremely unpopular even in their own districts/ Like 10-15% approval unpopular in the mainstream. But the real point of the tweet is to now start a brand: Those who like america and those that don't. This will be the foundation of his 2020 campaign.

Your right wing news outlets are lying to you.

For funzies I looked it up "The door-to-door poll from Stop The AOC PAC yielded the following key results........" stopped there.

Of course you'll take a "poll" from such a group at face value. I won't. The other results I found were from much earlier in the year. A poll from march is no longer relevant. You really think a liberal congresswoman, from a liberal district, acting like a liberal, has 10% approval rating? That should of set off your alarm instantly. But no, you read it and instantly believed it, no brain used at all.

And since you need it spelled out for you, pointing out the real problems in the country does not mean you hate america. The fact that I have to type this to a human is asinine. Colin kapp does not "hate america", he was protesting things in it he does not like. But you and many others drank the trump koolaid on that issue as well.

[Elegiac]

Nobody even seems to understand the effect of these tweets, Trump knew exactly what he doing. While everyone on the left predictably melts down, it's a political win for Trump. The 4 people mentioned are extremely unpopular even in their own districts/ Like 10-15% approval unpopular in the mainstream. But the real point of the tweet is to now start a brand: Those who like america and those that don't. This will be the foundation of his 2020 campaign.

If that were the "point", it was a dumbfuck way of going about it. Because he has not in fact managed to equate their policies with a lack of patriotism in the public eye.

The division that you claim is between "those who like america and those that don't" is actually a division over whether or not accepts the melting pot aspect of American civilization. 2020 is fundamentally a contest between a belief in America as a republic built on the long intermingling of many people that can coexist under the same set of beliefs in liberal democracy, and a belief in America that fundamentally views all people that are not white as inferior and incapable of being American.