Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Tenlo]

You cant have a free market if your government is doing all ot can to stop it.

This had everything to do with hospitals being overrun. So why are we now closing all the field hospitals?.

I can't speak to why the field hospitals are closing but are you arguing in favor of opening back up right now? Why should we sacrifice grandma for the glorious people's economy?

[Benggaul]

Protip: Ruski bots don't respond with personal attacks since they can't just waste accounts. Brainwashed morons do.

I was being facetious. But noted.

#PresidentPlump and #GirtherMovement are both trending right now which is hysterical. Normally I'm against fat-shaming, but when it's aimed at a guy who insults people's appearance daily I'd say it's a case of just desserts. Which, coincidentally, is what Trump eats.

[Trunksee]

Are you just wholly unaware of the world outside your own town or something? These are things that already happen every day, and have done so for many years.

In reality, you have no economy without people. If all those people die....

2% of people not all those people. This has a 2% fatality rate with medical care. Now i am not saying we were prepared but in the last 2 months i fail to see what the fuck we even did this for. Ok we flattened the curve but for what now? I thought this was all to ramp up hospital capacity so we could care for the sick. So why are we now closing field hospitals? People are so focused on stopping the virus they forgot about everything else.

[Kiri]

Yes it is but its objective. If this really is a war they we need to act like it. What we are doing is hiding in a fox hole while the enemy bombs everything around us. We are going to come out of this and say great we survived but the enemy destroyed everything around us while we waited for the nuke to finish the enemy.

Actually, yes. Hiding in your fox holes while being bombed is a big part of fighting a war. You know, because running at an enemy that is currently shooting at you with a knife is not actually all that effective. Right now, the US lacks the proper weapons to actually fight back against the attacks, if you really want to go with that analogy. If an US army base somewhere was under attack by artillery fire and they didn't even know from where, the guy suggesting to just send people out and vaguely 'fight' would probably get demoted, not listened to.

War means making sacrifices. Not just human lives. Armies in general tend to preserve their armies where they can. No, wars mean that you make sacrifices in your quality of life. Do you think the people in countries that actually did suffer bombing runs were complaining to their government for telling them to get shelter, for having to ration food or anything like that? No, obviously not. Yet, being bored at home with a bit less convenience already has people riled up in the US.

The issue with this whole war talk is that people want it to be a far away war, like Afghanistan or Iraq. Where they can send other people to die but don't have to do crap themselves, aside from complaining about the price of oil. That's where comments like the above stem from, probably. Lots of people one doesn't care about die, lots of people who do not contribute to one's quality of life.

None of that is objective. In fact, it is highly subjective. Because what you were doing in that post is using your subjective preference ordering and making a call. Because you are weighing [Other people you don't know] against [My standards of living] and find that the latter outweighs the former. That's perfectly fine, to be honest. Part of being part of a free society is to accept that others have those kinds of preferences and should be allowed to voice them. However, claiming that you are 'objective' in doing so is simply false. Because it's not objective. It's the opposite of that. You know, because there is no such thing as an objective value of life.

[draynay]

Are we going to let this virus completely destroy our way of life in the US? Is it sustainable to wait out the enemy while it reeks havoc on everything we hold up as our values and our way of life or are we going to put our big boy pants on. We cant just let this situation destroy everything while we sit on our hands hoping they finish the manhattan project. If we were in a war and all we did was let the enemy bomb us while we all hid waiting for someone to make a weapon to have it end we will have failed.

So you're just going to repeat your war rhetoric endlessly and not engage? Just wondering who/what you were defining as "enemy" in your obtuse metaphor.

[Trunksee]

Actually, yes. Hiding in your fox holes while being bombed is a big part of fighting a war. You know, because running at an enemy that is currently shooting at you with a knife is not actually all that effective. Right now, the US lacks the proper weapons to actually fight back against the attacks, if you really want to go with that analogy. If an US army base somewhere was under attack by artillery fire and they didn't even know from where, the guy suggesting to just send people out and vaguely 'fight' would probably get demoted, not listened to.

War means making sacrifices. Not just human lives. Armies in general tend to preserve their armies where they can. No, wars mean that you make sacrifices in your quality of life. Do you think the people in countries that actually did suffer bombing runs were complaining to their government for telling them to get shelter, for having to ration food or anything like that? No, obviously not. Yet, being bored at home with a bit less convenience already has people riled up in the US.

The issue with this whole war talk is that people want it to be a far away war, like Afghanistan or Iraq. Where they can send other people to die but don't have to do crap themselves, aside from complaining about the price of oil. That's where comments like the above stem from, probably. Lots of people one doesn't care about die, lots of people who do not contribute to one's quality of life.

None of that is objective. In fact, it is highly subjective. Because what you were doing in that post is using your subjective preference ordering and making a call. Because you are weighing [Other people you don't know] against [My standards of living] and find that the latter outweighs the former. That's perfectly fine, to be honest. Part of being part of a free society is to accept that others have those kinds of preferences and should be allowed to voice them. However, claiming that you are 'objective' in doing so is simply false. Because it's not objective. It's the opposite of that. You know, because there is no such thing as an objective value of life.

I understand part of that. People seem to have forgotten what the great depression looked like. We are literally staring that in the face. You all do understand that right? You may not even be able to financially take care of that person you saved after this. You will have literally saved their life to make them suffer when this is over.

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So you're just going to repeat your war rhetoric endlessly and not engage? Just wondering who/what you were defining as "enemy" in your obtuse metaphor.

Umm the virus. The thing attacking us.

[solinari6]

I understand part of that. People seem to have forgotten what the great depression looked like. We are literally staring that in the face. You all do understand that right? You may not even be able to financially take care of that person you saved after this. You will have literally saved their life to make them suffer when this is over.

Hmm, well personally, I would rather be alive with a much lower standard of living than dead. But I suppose that's all a decision we need to make for our grandparents ourselves.

[Trunksee]

Hmm, well personally, I would rather be alive with a much lower standard of living than dead. But I suppose that's all a decision we need to make for our grandparents ourselves.

My point is do we not have the right to at least try. There seems to be absolutely no plan. The plan started as ramp up the hospitals. We were flattening the curve to give us time to do that. Now that we have accomplished that it seems we are now trying to save everyone for this imaginary 12 to 18 month time line for a vaccine. Something that has never happened before. Governors are already saying that they wont open until we have a vaccine. Why have we just accepted that we have no freedom? No right to choose. I just dont understand what the point was anymore. The rich who are in power dont care if us normal people are in a depression.

[solinari6]

Governors are already saying that they wont open until we have a vaccine.

Are you sure about that? The vaccine is a year to 5 years away. I don't believe any governor is planning on keeping their state locked down that long. Maybe social distancing will be here until there's a vaccine. But a complete lock down? No.

[Shadowferal]

Over a dozen gubernatorial elections this year.
I expect ads kicking in about year long shutdowns..soonish.

[Thepersona]

Okay well you go tell your parents/grandparents/aunts/uncles that they must be sacrificed to appease the god of economy. BLOOD FOR THE MONEY GOD! Seriously though the lockdown isn't just about the death rate it is about keeping the hospitals from being overrun with the sick. Even with most states placing stay at home orders back in late March we still have 1.5 million people sick. So through school closures, non essential business closures, event cancellations, restaurant dine in closed, and limitations in essential businesses we still have over 1.5 million people get sick. Now think about not having all of those closures and the amount of infected would be exponentially higher. Hospitals and doctor offices would be overrun with the amount of sick which would lead to more deaths because people couldn't receive health care services. You wanna know who would be hit the hardest? Rural areas since most rural areas don't have hospitals because they were privatized and closed down for not being profitable. Though you probably like this because more sacrifices would make the god of the economy pleased. BLOOD FOR THE MONEY GOD!

Skulls for the money throne? Milk for the money flakes?

[Shadowferal]

Maybe social distancing will be here until there's a vaccine. But a complete lock down? No.

That would be sensible imo

[Edge-]

https://www.floridatoday.com/story/n...ed/5219137002/

Welp, Florida is not just censoring their scientists, but actively firing them should they refuse to manipulate the coronavirus data.

No wonder their numbers look...well not good, but less bad than expected.

[Trunksee]

That would be sensible imo

Completely sensible. But you have to allow people to work. There are already going to be huge shortfalls in local taxes. There will be no way to take care of those who need it in the next few months if we dont find smarter more sensible paths. I can expect a few states to open and see a minor spike and immediately shut back down. Many of yall are already freaking out about GA and FL. At least they are trying.

[Breccia]

That would be sensible imo

Even if it's not enforced legally, we should expect a lot of businesses to do one of two things:

1) The Disney Model, as shown here

Disclaimer for Disney World Florida.

"An inherent risk of exposure to COVID-19 exists in any public place where people are present. COVID-19 is an extremely contagious disease that can lead to severe illness and death. By visiting Walt Disney World Resort, you voluntarily assume all risks related to exposure to COVID-19."

Wonder what kind of waiver they have on their employment agreement.

Video of above argument here.

OR

2) Add extra safeguards, such as operating at lower capacity, taking the money hit to protect their customers and also not getting sued.

Oh, I guess

3) Give up and close

is also an option. But none of those require specific extra permission from the state. If a bar chooses to lower their number of seats and have servers in masks, that's not illegal. Don't like it? Drink someplace else. I personally think it's smarter than putting your customers at risk -- but I might be biased, my county is filled with old people. I've been teaching for 20 years and I'm still younger than 80%-plus of the waitstaff in my favorite haunts and 50% of their clients, both conservative estimates. All of them are taking extra precautions and have altered business models above and beyond what New York State required. Because even if they weren't good people -- and they are, or I wouldn't keep going back -- nobody wants the rep of being the family food restaurant that killed their customers. You don't come back from that.

[Shadowferal]

Completely sensible. But you have to allow people to work. There are already going to be huge shortfalls in local taxes. There will be no way to take care of those who need it in the next few months if we dont find smarter more sensible paths. I can expect a few states to open and see a minor spike and immediately shut back down. Many of yall are already freaking out about GA and FL. At least they are trying.

The forthcoming elections should be revealing. What some accept today I don't believe will be as acceptable by then.

[rayvio]

all these war comparisons... are we going to have the War On Covid next? hopefully it'll go better than the wars on Terror and Drugs... but that really doesn't look likely with Unhinged Orange in charge

[Trunksee]

The forthcoming elections should be revealing. What some accept today I don't believe will be as acceptable by then.

No i doubt it. We are what jist under 6 months from elections? People were ok with a few months. But if kids dont go back in the fall you are going to see massive fallout

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all these war comparisons... are we going to have the War On Covid next? hopefully it'll go better than the wars on Terror and Drugs... but that really doesn't look likely with Unhinged Orange in charge

Have you not watched the news its been being called a war for a while now.

[draynay]

Umm the virus. The thing attacking us.

And your prescribed course of action for fighting it is?

[Trunksee]

And your prescribed course of action for fighting it is?

Well its to late to rewrite history. But ramping up hospitals was first as we lowered the curve. Second allow people to do their own risk assessments. If your willing to go out heres what you should do but its ob you to decide. Allow THE PEOPLE the chance to decide if they want to go out. Ramp up gov funding for hospitals not giving money away. Let the economy take care of itself. This is more of a freedom issue to me personally.