Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[shimerra]

Well, I mean, they’re not the same... they’re civilians and don’t follow, nor are they bound by UCMJ. I understand the anger and frustration over this, but I don’t agree that it’s sending a message that “our troops can commit whatever crimes they want”... cause, well, these men weren’t our troops. They were civilian contractors.

That's a distinction with essentially no difference in this case. They're civilians working with/for the military in an armed conflict as armed personnel. There's less difference between the two at least as it applies to their case than there is distance between my butt cheeks.

And private military contractors are under the UCMJ and this has been the case since 2007. As far as I'm aware that hasn't changed.

Pardoning these guys absolutely 100% sends the message that our troops, in addition to other US personnel, aren't beholden to even our own laws let alone the laws of other countries and lives of their citizens.

https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/f...y%20operations.

[Twdft]

Well, I mean, they’re not the same... they’re civilians and don’t follow, nor are they bound by UCMJ. I understand the anger and frustration over this, but I don’t agree that it’s sending a message that “our troops can commit whatever crimes they want”... cause, well, these men weren’t our troops. They were civilian contractors.

First of all, in my opinion it is fucked up in a very special sinister way that the United States use civilian troops in foreign countries to do military tasks allowing them to kill. Really, it's fucking fuckity fucked up this is happening under US military authorization. And it would be even more fucked up if they acted on their own, without being tasked by the US, killing people on missions by... whom exactly if not the US?

[Gorsameth]

Well, I mean, they’re not the same... they’re civilians and don’t follow, nor are they bound by UCMJ. I understand the anger and frustration over this, but I don’t agree that it’s sending a message that “our troops can commit whatever crimes they want”... cause, well, these men weren’t our troops. They were civilian contractors.

They are civilian contractors hired by the government so that its not official government men that get killed or commit warcrimes.
They entire reason of existing in so the US can point at them and say "not our fault lolz".

So sorry if no one takes the separation between the two entirely seriously.

As for the whole international image.
This will not help, surely. But the notion that the US tells the world to fuck off is a lot older. Remember the US does not recognise the International Court in Den Hage and during the Bush years the US actually passed a law that "allows" it to invade the Netherlands if any US soldiers would be tried in said court.

[D Luniz]

The cruelty is the fucking point

from Trump’s worst pardon is one you haven’t heard about

This was no accident or split-second mistake. It was a willful and deliberate act of police brutality. It was also not Mohr’s first — and there was a pattern to the violence. Evidence at trial showed that Mohr had previously released her dog on a Black teenager sleeping in a hammock in his own backyard. She had threatened the relatives of a fugitive that she would let her dog attack their “black ass” if they did not tell her where he was. There were other incidents that the jury did not even learn about, including one in which Mohr put her dog into a trash dumpster to attack a man who had fled from police.

murderous mercs
police with a history of serial brutally, THERE IS NO BOTTOM

[Fugus]

The Blackwater incident happened in 2007. That’s why I said they weren’t bound by UCMJ.

Part of this you miss, this is still the US Government letting those civilians off the hook, now combine this with the case where Trump intervened to protect a war criminal from even losing rank when the UCMJ was about to nail them.

Either way, as another said, this is distinction without difference when it is the government protecting war criminals.

[shimerra]

The Blackwater incident happened in 2007. That’s why I said they weren’t bound by UCMJ.

Ah my bad I thought it was after. Regardless the rest of what I said still stands.

Their conduct is entirely and 100% reflective of our troops as well as they are military contractors. Especially given the massive amount of them that are former military and they've been used to guard military outposts., train the Iraqi Army, and provide support to our military. Pretending there is any real practical difference that applies to this situation is pointless and disingenuous even if it may be technically correct.

[pathora44]

The Blackwater incident happened in 2007. That’s why I said they weren’t bound by UCMJ.

You are arguing semantics when like others have said there is essentially no difference especially to a layman. These war crime committing child murdering pieces of shit mercs were paid by the U.S. Government to protect U.S. assets and kill people. They are U.S. soldiers in all but name and by pardoning these murderers this administration has just place another blemish on America to the eyes of the world to the point it is now becoming incredibly hard to find a spot that isn't already blemished.

[Lynarii]

The Blackwater incident happened in 2007. That’s why I said they weren’t bound by UCMJ.

Here's the thing. You could draw a line between US Policy and the Blackwater personnel murdering people when the people responsible for it were being punished. That punishment is the proof to the world that the US doesn't agree with what happened that day. Pardoning them tells everyone that the US DOES sanction their activities. That murdering innocent Iraqi citizens, including children for goodness sakes, is an official US supported activity. Nobody is going to accept "We didn't kill your family, we hired other people to kill them on our behalf!" as exonerating.

[Breccia]

Only in Trump's America.

Feds probing if Nashville bomber believed in lizard people conspiracy

"Oh come on. You know full well Trump condemned the bombing."

Okay. Wanna link it?

"It's...uh...I can't seem to find it."

Perhaps he's busy. Has he condemned anything else?

"Looks like...Iran last week and the attack in Afghanistan yesterday."

So, he's not too busy. He just doesn't want to.

[Gorsameth]

As I've said, I completely agree with what's being said about them, but I don't really agree that majority of people will see this as troops getting away with any crime that they want, especially since the military themselves sided with the Iraqi government, in condemning the actions of Blackwater and faulting them (Blackwater) for what happened.

Yes, the military employed this private company, meaning the contractors were representing them, but I'm not going to compare these civilians as actual service members, cause they weren't. If anything, I put majority of the blame on the Erick Prince and whoever else owned the company, including those who were responsible for hiring the individuals that they contracted out to the military.

The military definitely doesn't have clean hands, don't get me wrong.

The people putting bomb vests don't care about the distinction. US people did the crime and the US government pardoned them.

[Fugus]

As I've said, I completely agree with what's being said about them, but I don't really agree that majority of people will see this as troops getting away with any crime that they want, especially since the military themselves sided with the Iraqi government, in condemning the actions of Blackwater and faulting them (Blackwater) for what happened.

Yes, the military employed this private company, meaning the contractors were representing them, but I'm not going to compare these civilians as actual service members, cause they weren't. If anything, I put majority of the blame on the Erick Prince and whoever else owned the company, including those who were responsible for hiring the individuals that they contracted out to the military.

The military definitely doesn't have clean hands, don't get me wrong.

But you also have Trump interfering with military War Criminals to protect them as well, directly. So even that extra degree of separation doesn't really exist. Remember the guy he blocked from losing rank or getting kicked out when his own people have testified to him shooting into crowds and they had evidence of him taking pictures with corpses.

[Rasulis]

The stars are not aligned for Trump.

Census Bureau to miss deadline, jeopardizing Trump plan

The Census Bureau plans to announce it will miss a year-end deadline for handing in numbers used for divvying up congressional seats, a census official said. That delay could undermine President Donald Trump’s efforts to exclude people in the country illegally from the count if the figures aren’t turned in before President-elect Joe Biden takes office.

Internal documents obtained earlier this month by a House committee show that Census Bureau officials don’t see the apportionment numbers being ready until days after Biden is inaugurated on Jan. 20.

Once in office, Biden could rescind Trump’s presidential memorandum directing the Census Bureau to exclude people in the country illegally from numbers used for divvying up congressional seats among the states. An influential GOP adviser had advocated excluding them from the apportionment process to advantage Republicans and non-Hispanic whites.

Deep State strikes back!

[cubby]

The stars are not aligned for Trump.

Census Bureau to miss deadline, jeopardizing Trump plan

The Census Bureau plans to announce it will miss a year-end deadline for handing in numbers used for divvying up congressional seats, a census official said. That delay could undermine President Donald Trump’s efforts to exclude people in the country illegally from the count if the figures aren’t turned in before President-elect Joe Biden takes office.

Internal documents obtained earlier this month by a House committee show that Census Bureau officials don’t see the apportionment numbers being ready until days after Biden is inaugurated on Jan. 20.

Once in office, Biden could rescind Trump’s presidential memorandum directing the Census Bureau to exclude people in the country illegally from numbers used for divvying up congressional seats among the states. An influential GOP adviser had advocated excluding them from the apportionment process to advantage Republicans and non-Hispanic whites.

Deep State strikes back!

Fan-fucking-tastic. This is a great sign of career professionals making sure the right thing gets done.

[beanman12345]

Fan-fucking-tastic. This is a great sign of career professionals making sure the right thing gets done.

Yup, let the memo's pile up, miss a few quota's, stall stall stall, and not have to deal with Trumps shit anymore.

[shimerra]

As I've said, I completely agree with what's being said about them, but I don't really agree that majority of people will see this as troops getting away with any crime that they want, especially since the military themselves sided with the Iraqi government, in condemning the actions of Blackwater and faulting them (Blackwater) for what happened.

Yes, the military employed this private company, meaning the contractors were representing them, but I'm not going to compare these civilians as actual service members, cause they weren't. If anything, I put majority of the blame on the Erick Prince and whoever else owned the company, including those who were responsible for hiring the individuals that they contracted out to the military.

The military definitely doesn't have clean hands, don't get me wrong.

Americans? Maybe not. At least not Republicans on average. Iraqis and the people being dicked over while we ignore our own laws let alone theirs? Definitely. The belief that Americans and our Troops get away with, well murder, isn't a tiny minority opinion in these places. And I can't imagine they see much of a difference between the soldiers defending the military instillation and the private contractor defending the exact same military instillation when their people are shot unjustly. Again it's a distinction with essentially no practical difference especially when Trump has pardoned both those that the UCMJ applied to, and as you correct me on those it didn't.

As you stated the private contractors, which are frequently fulfilling military roles/the duties of soldiers, are still being contracted by the US government/US military. It is 100% perfectly reasonable to hold the military/US GOV responsible for who they hire to shore up their own lack of manpower. They may not be troops but our government is paying them to fulfill the duties of troops. Blackwater is definitely responsible and so is the US government for hiring them and then voiding their lawful punishment. And our troops are definitely going to catch some of that flak. Christ given the American culture of questions worship for soldiers I'd expect most people to feel the Troops would be even less likely to be held accountable and Trump's helped confirm that too.

[beanman12345]

As I've said, I completely agree with what's being said about them, but I don't really agree that majority of people will see this as troops getting away with any crime that they want, especially since the military themselves sided with the Iraqi government, in condemning the actions of Blackwater and faulting them (Blackwater) for what happened.

Yes, the military employed this private company, meaning the contractors were representing them, but I'm not going to compare these civilians as actual service members, cause they weren't. If anything, I put majority of the blame on the Erick Prince and whoever else owned the company, including those who were responsible for hiring the individuals that they contracted out to the military.

The military definitely doesn't have clean hands, don't get me wrong.

While I personally agree, there is a distinction, maybe even the majority of people will see the distinction, but a large portion of people won't. And even then in the eyes of many it's guilt by association. Now you can such cut ties with that association, and if we have, then the guilt is unwarranted, but if we haven't, I'm not sure I don't know anything about this contractor you are much more informed than I on this topic, than it is warranted imo. I think that is the point people are trying to make, the association guilt.

[Breccia]

McConnell is effectively broadcasting that the $2,000 relief payments won't happen at all.

The Senate is not going to split apart the three issues that President Trump linked together just because Democrats are afraid to address two of them. The Senate is not going to be bullied into rushing out more borrowed money into the hands of Democrats rich friends who don't need the help

"Democrats rich friends? He does know Trump asked for this, right?"

So McConnell --

"McConnell knows there's an income cap to the payments, right?"

So McConnell --

"Didn't he block unemployment benefits? Are the Democrats rich friends...unemployed?"

So McConnell is using Trump's other requirements as an excuse -- the Section 230 issue, for example. McConnell knows that Trump's other demands won't pass on their own. Therefore, he's holding the payments hostage.

And Trump will back this play, and blame Democrats.

[Benggaul]

234,550 new cases is a little above what we had last Wednesday before testing went to shit, so that's not encouraging. Yesterday's totals have also been updated to about where they were last Tuesday.

Top 10:

California: 32,525 new cases; 427 deaths
Texas: 19,715 new cases; 314 deaths (new record*)
New York: 13,886 new cases (new record); 193 deaths
Fuck Florida.
Georgia: 9,053 new cases; 67 deaths
Pennsylvania: 8,565 new cases; 335 deaths (new record*)
North Carolina: 8,551 new cases (new record); 155 deaths
Tennessee: 8,220 new cases; 100 deaths
Ohio: 8,178 new cases; 134 deaths
Illinois: 7,374 new cases; 215 deaths

The records for Texas and Pennsylvania are asterisked because the actual records are likely correction days.

Testing is still below what it was before the holiday, so the fact that we're hitting about the same numbers is, as previously mentioned, not a good sign. The data is still too sporadic in a large swath of the country to get a bead on things and it's going to be interrupted again for New Year's which means things won't get back on track until sometime near the end of next week and I still suspect some states will never get back to their prior testing levels much like Florida when they shut up the temporary testing sites before a hurricane hit and then just never got around to testing properly again. The bottom line is we're still pretty fucked.

Yesterday's death total was updated to 3,717 and was a new national record. Was. Today it's 3,880--another new national record--and brings the total to 350,778. We ended up passing 350k before the end of the year after all. Some of that is, again, likely to be a correction from the previous week of underreporting, but given that a large portion of it is coming from California and they're one of the few states that kept testing consistently through the holidays I'd say it's probably not that far off.

Related news:

California reports first case of more contagious COVID-19 strain; more states expected
Colorado coronavirus new variant: Officials suspect they've found a second case of UK variant--These go together and it's bad. The UK variant is a more contagious version of the virus and it will mean even more outbreaks even under the strictest of conditions.

Dawn Wells Dies Of Covid-19: Mary Ann On ‘Gilligan’s Island’ Was 82--My first ever crush. 2020 is pretty much taking away everything I love(d).

Stay safe, folks.

[Levelfive]

McConnell is effectively broadcasting that the $2,000 relief payments won't happen at all.



"Democrats rich friends? He does know Trump asked for this, right?"

So McConnell --

"McConnell knows there's an income cap to the payments, right?"

So McConnell --

"Didn't he block unemployment benefits? Are the Democrats rich friends...unemployed?"

So McConnell is using Trump's other requirements as an excuse -- the Section 230 issue, for example. McConnell knows that Trump's other demands won't pass on their own. Therefore, he's holding the payments hostage.

And Trump will back this play, and blame Democrats.

Is there any reason Democrats can't call his bluff? By all means, go ahead and investigate the absence of "voter fraud" (other than that Republican voting as his dead mother); repealing 230 would just incentivize media companies to ban problematic users (ahem), and it forces Republicans to do something good for the people and the economy as Biden takes office, which of course is what they're really trying to prevent. So link them, fuckface.

[Breccia]

Is there any reason Democrats can't call his bluff?

I disagree with your thoughts about Section 230. The results would be more than "MMO-C bans trolls for posting conspiracy theories" it would be "trolls chain-sue MMO-C for posts they disagree with, MMO-C shuts down forums entirely".

No, Democrats won't shut down social media just to call McConnell's bluff.