Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[rda]

You're missing the part where he assumed because they were not white that they were born in other countries. That is what is racist about his statement.

Look, we've been over all this. Do you really want to repeat it? Let's not.

Assuming the origins of a person based on their skin color is not racist. It isn't. The end.

[Wyrt]

Look, we've been over all this. Do you really want to repeat it? Let's not.

Assuming the origins of a person based on their skin color is not racist. It isn't. The end.

It's such a classic form of racism the federal government even uses it as an example of discrimination. You are wrong.

[rda]

It's such a classic form of racism the federal government even uses it as an example of discrimination. You are wrong.

Oh, you are really intent on going through all the repeat points. OK.

The example of discrimination in the govt guideline is just an incomplete subphrase from a Trump tweet and the guideline includes a caveat that such words "might be racist". Whether or not they are racist depends on other factors in the particular case observed and these factors in the Trump case are such that the words aren't racist. Even though that's just a subphrase cut out of the middle.

[Wyrt]

Oh, you are really intent on going through all the repeat points. OK.

The example of discrimination in the govt guideline is just an incomplete subphrase from a Trump tweet and the guideline includes a caveat that such words "might be racist". Whether or not they are racist depends on other factors in the particular case observed and these factors in the Trump case are such that the words aren't racist. Even though that's just a subphrase cut out of the middle.

You are factually incorrect.

Trump did basically the same thing with the Birtherism conspiracy theory about Obama. So we have a history of Trump using this racist trope. It is not an isolated incident, it is a pattern of behavior.

[rda]

You are factually incorrect.

Trump did basically the same thing with the Birtherism conspiracy theory about Obama. So we have a history of Trump using this racist trope. It is not an isolated incident, it is a pattern of behavior.

You say that I am factually incorrect. Where?

Let's also stay on the specific example you started with before jumping into other things yet alone into the vague "oh, it's a pattern of behavior". You think this is an example of Trump being racist. Cool. Show it. Again, if you don't want to have a serious discussion on this, because this isn't the right time, isn't the right place, or whatever, that's fair too. But let's wrap it up somehow.

[Wyrt]

You say that I am factually incorrect. Where?

Let's also stay on the specific example you started with before jumping into other things yet alone into the vague "oh, it's a pattern of behavior". You think this is an example of Trump being racist. Cool. Show it. Again, if you don't want to have a serious discussion on this, because this isn't the right time, isn't the right place, or whatever, that's fair too. But let's wrap it up somehow.

Telling people to go back where they came from is racist. The whole Birtherism conspiracy theory was racist.

Trump has done both. So, he's either a moron who unknowingly supports racist talking points OR he is a racist himself. Take your pick, those are your only 2 options.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Crowder the coward actively ducks any debate against someone educated and prepared who disagrees with him. Change my mind.

Pretty much this. He uses deflection, and he often just flat out makes stuff up. In the video above, Crowder said that Trump said that in the same speech as he said "Both sides have good people" that he also said that white supremacists should be wholly and completely condemned. Yeah, Trump never said that. He claims that Trump said it and the media edited it out everywhere to control the narrative, so nobody knows Trump said it because of media bias. Anyone who looks up to Crowder as the pinnacle of right wing debate is a lunatic. Then again, making up conspriacies, deflecting, strawmanning, are all just about the pinnacle of right wing debate these days, so I suppose they're not necessarily wrong, it's just that right wing debate these days is dumb as hell.

[Dontrike]

He didn't say "go back where you came from", we've been over that, he said something else. If you want to have an honest discussion regarding whether or not Trump is racist, we can have it. If you don't, not now, not here, not with me or whatever else, that's fine, too.

Nothing like you ignoring birtherism to go straight for the one that can only be argued that he isn't, rather than proven he's not.

Then you have muslim travel ban, the wall, the concentration camps and everything even related to them, and so much more. Trump has gone far away from "grandpa just being from a different time" to "okay, yeah, he has a history of this".

[Poopymonster]

Nothing like you ignoring birtherism to go straight for the one that can only be argued that he isn't, rather than proven he's not.

Then you have muslim travel ban, the wall, the concentration camps and everything even related to them, and so much more. Trump has gone far away from "grandpa just being from a different time" to "okay, yeah, he has a history of this".

That sounds so tacky, let's give them a more apt name. Abusement parks.

[rda]

Telling people to go back where they came from is racist. The whole Birtherism conspiracy theory was racist.

Trump has done both. So, he's either a moron who unknowingly supports racist talking points OR he is a racist himself. Take your pick, those are your only 2 options.

We are going in circles. You say that telling people to go back where they came from is racist. This could be racist provided this is the entire message and it has a connotation "because you don't belong here". The message in Trump's tweets was different. It didn't have the connotation that makes the shorter message racist.

[Dontrike]

That sounds so tacky, let's give them a more apt name. Abusement parks.

Let's go with the Happy Camps from South Park movie.

[Wyrt]

We are going in circles. You say that telling people to go back where they came from is racist. This could be racist provided this is the entire message and it has a connotation "because you don't belong here". The message in Trump's tweets was different. It didn't have the connotation that makes the shorter message racist.

It's racist both ways. The extra on the end doesn't change anything about the message. The message is still, "You can't say anything about the US because you aren't white, fuck off back to your country." It's 100% racist.

[Bodakane]

We are going in circles. You say that telling people to go back where they came from is racist. This could be racist provided this is the entire message and it has a connotation "because you don't belong here". The message in Trump's tweets was different. It didn't have the connotation that makes the shorter message racist.

So tell the poster to show where he was racist, the poster does, and you handwave it based on your own made ups interpretation of the what Trump said and what racism is?

Cool.

[rda]

Nothing like you ignoring birtherism to go straight for the one that can only be argued that he isn't, rather than proven he's not.

Then you have muslim travel ban, the wall, the concentration camps and everything even related to them, and so much more. Trump has gone far away from "grandpa just being from a different time" to "okay, yeah, he has a history of this".

If you want to discuss specific points, let's discuss them, but please be specific. Point to tweets / messages, etc. Explain why you think they are racist. I should warn you though that unlike 6 months prior when I weren't following this all that much, by now I did see a fair deal of pieces discussing Trump and his tweets, and so far I haven't seen much in the way of racism, just a lot of media BS. Trump says stupid things left and right, he is inaccurate and rude. But is he racist? No, he is not. That's been my impression. But again, if you want to discuss specific points, we can do so.

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It's racist both ways. The extra on the end doesn't change anything about the message. The message is still, "You can't say anything about the US because you aren't white, fuck off back to your country." It's 100% racist.

No, the extra on the end changes everything about the message. The traditional message ascribed to racists is "go back to your country" with the connotation "because you are unworthy of this country", as I said. The message in Trump's tweets is "you are talking so much shit about the US, but you actually have a place to compare it to = your former country, try looking at that, try fixing problems there and see how difficult it is and how good you have it in the US". The message is entirely different. No, it's not at all "You can't say anything about the US because you aren't white, fuck off back to your country", that's you strictly putting words into Trump's mouth. He didn't say anything like that.

[Wyrt]

No, the extra on the end changes everything about the message. The traditional message ascribed to racists is "go back to your country" with the connotation "because you are unworthy of this country", as I said. The message in Trump's tweets is "you are talking so much shit about the US, but you actually have a place to compare it to = your former country, try looking at that, try fixing problems there first if you think that's so easy and you'll see that this ain't easy".

Except most of them were born in the US. The assumption that they aren't from the US because of their race is racist.

[rda]

Except most of them were born in the US. The assumption that they aren't from the US because of their race is racist.

You are switching between three points.

Your first point is that Trump's tweets are "go back where you came from" and they are racist because of that -- no, they aren't that, his message is different.

Your second point is that Trump is making an assumption that the congresswomen are originally from some country other than the US based on their skin color and that this is racist -- no, assuming the origins of a person based on their skin color is not racist.

Your third point is that a subphrase from Trump's tweets is in a govt guideline on what could be racism and that Trump's tweets are racist because they contain this subphrase -- the guideline itself says that the subphrase merely could be racist provided there are other conditions, these conditions are different for Trump's tweets, so no, this doesn't work either.

It would have been better if instead of trying one point, then dropping it and trying another one, then dropping that too and moving on to the third, and keeping jumping between them trying and dropping each in turn, you just took them all as a whole and tried it all at the same time. Otherwise we go in circles.

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Except most of them were born in the US. The assumption that they aren't from the US because of their race is racist.

No, it is not. You keep saying it. Why the hell do you think it is? Link something, I don't know. Where did you read it? Assuming the origins of a person based on its skin color is not racist. "You are black, so I guess you are stupid" is racist. "You are black, so I guess you are probably not from around here" isn't.

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Maybe this will help.

You know who actually said "go back to your country"? This guy (on the right):



He said this: "Go back to Europe where you came from. This is not your land, you have been here two, three generations compared to us. We've been here a million fucking years."

According to your logic, he must be racist. Is he? (No, he is not. Ask yourself why.)

[Wyrt]

No, it is not. You keep saying it. Why the hell do you think it is? Link something, I don't know. Where did you read it? Assuming the origins of a person based on its skin color is not racist. "You are black, so I guess you are stupid" is racist. "You are black, so I guess you are probably not from around here" isn't.

I could link you a whole number of sources that say both Birtherism and Trump's "go back where you came from" tweet are racist, but you won't accept a single one of them, so why should I bother?

[Dontrike]

If you want to discuss specific points, let's discuss them, but please be specific. Point to tweets / messages, etc.

I literally just did that, by listing some of the shit he's tried or is currently doing.

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According to your logic, he must be racist. Is he? (No, he is not. Ask yourself why.)

Yes.

See, you think you got them in this "ahha! gotcha" moment, but really it's pretty simple that anyone who says "go back to where you came from" is racist.

[rda]

Yes.

See, you think you got them in this "ahha! gotcha" moment, but really it's pretty simple that anyone who says "go back to where you came from" is racist.

Well, OK, then our problem is not that you are looking at somewhat similar things and are calling them racist when they happen on one side and not racist when they happen on the other side, but rather that you have a strange idea (well, strange to me) of what is racist and what isn't.

I would say though that your opinion about the old guy words being racist is not shared by others on the side of the Dems. Nobody called that old guy racist. You are the first one to do this and you are doing that in reply to my question, not on your own initiative.

[Shalcker]

Yes.

See, you think you got them in this "ahha! gotcha" moment, but really it's pretty simple that anyone who says "go back to where you came from" is racist.

By this logic, if tomorrow Russian troops would have landed in New York, telling them to "go back to where you came from!" would be racist.

...where does race come from there really? They could be settlers of exactly same race and they still would be invaders.