Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Shalcker]

He doesn't have the right to to ask a foreign country to open an investigation into a political rival for no reason.

There is a reason - persistent rumours.

Trump doesn't have the right to send his personal lawyer "fact finding" in a foreign country demanding their cooperation in exchange for the support they need to continue existing when half their country is facing pro-russia movements for already disproven conspiracies regarding his political rivals because in addition to Biden he seems to also think he's going to find Hillarys emails in Ukraine.

If he truly thinks that way, why shouldn't he be allowed to check wherever it's true?

There also was no explicit "exchange" in that call.

And as far as "implicit" exchange goes, everyone in Ukraine also understood that paying Biden's son and listening to his other demands is one of necessary steps to get those billions of aid.

[Xeones]

There is a reason - persistent rumours.

If he truly thinks that way, why shouldn't he be allowed to check wherever it's true?

There also was no explicit "exchange" in that call.

There was no persistent rumors that I am aware of. And I unfortunately am aware of some amount of the qanon nonsense.

And if he wanted to find out if it's true, he has staff he can ask because they already have the answer. He doesn't get to ask another foreign leader for a personal favor then try to hide the information on a server intended essentially to protect spies not hide his dirty laundry.

The only part of the whistleblower complaint that Trump didn't feel fit to prove on his own initiative is the part where Ukraine was told beforehand what the call was about and that they needed to play ball. And he did block the funds which gets us most of the way to proving that claim.

The contents of the phone phone call is unjustifiable and blocking funding that was approved by congress is unjustifiable.

And if Trump wanted to put up the appearance of actually having a real investigation it would require one of our agencies to open an investigation and then request assistance from the appropriate agencies of the Ukrainian government. It, once again, does not involve Trump asking a personal favor of a foreign leader he is going to block congressional approved funding for that is important to the continued existence of that nation. And a legitimate investigation does not involve the president, and it does not involve him trying to hide the investigation in the most secure location available to him. The only reason he could possibly be trying to hide it is so that it appears Ukraine is opening an investigation on their on initiative to smear Biden in a way that Comey ruined Hillarys chances of winning with how narrow thin Trumps victory was.

This is a bigger deal than water gate.

[nonameelf]

There was no persistent rumors that I am aware of. And I unfortunately am aware of some amount of the qanon nonsense.

And if he wanted to find out if it's true, he has staff he can ask because they already have the answer. He doesn't get to ask another foreign leader for a personal favor then try to hide the information on a server intended essentially to protect spies not hide his dirty laundry.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/29/u...p-ukraine.html

Trump was repeatedly told that it was a debunked conspiracy people from his own people. So yeah, there's no valid reason for him to ask Ukraine to investigate Biden, no matter what the Russian troll says.

[Orbitus]

There is a reason - persistent rumours.

If he truly thinks that way, why shouldn't he be allowed to check wherever it's true?

There also was no explicit "exchange" in that call.

And as far as "implicit" exchange goes, everyone in Ukraine also understood that paying Biden's son and listening to his other demands is one of necessary steps to get those billions of aid.

Persistent rumors from fucking CONSPIRACY MORONS LIKE JOHN SOLOMON. And when he asked for a favor after Ukraine asked for more Javelins, is when it became illegal.

[Shalcker]

Persistent rumors from fucking CONSPIRACY MORONS LIKE JOHN SOLOMON. And when he asked for a favor after Ukraine asked for more Javelins, is when it became illegal.

Still not seeing any cites as to which law it - or Giuliani's trips - breaks though.

[nonameelf]

Still not seeing any cites as to which law it - or Giuliani's trips - breaks though.

I already told you what crimes were committed:
Conspiracy to defraud the United States
https://www.justice.gov/jm/criminal-...acy-defraud-us
"but it also means to interfere with or obstruct one of its lawful governmental functions by deceit, craft or trickery, or at least by means that are dishonest"

Getting the DOJ to start an investigation based on completely made up nonsense for political gain is this.

Campaign finance violation for asking a foreign country to help in an election.
https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?...dition:prelim)


Soliciting a bribe.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/201


Oh, and the bribe one is automatic impeachment as per the constitution.

[Orbitus]

Still not seeing any cites as to which law it - or Giuliani's trips - breaks though.

Well, the first being the Logan Act since he cannot deal with foreign government, on behalf of the government. Especially since he claimed he was doing it at the behest and blessing of the State Department. That is wrong, since the State Department said they didn't tell him to or give him permission. Then we have the campaign finance violations, just like with Stormy Daniels, and the Trump Tower meeting, he is trying to get information, ILLEGALLY, from a foreign government. Then you have bribery and extortion. Since they wouldn't even talk, unless the Ukrainian president was going to investigate Biden. That is extortion, you know, high crime in the "high crimes and misdemeanors" part of the impeachment clause.

[Xeones]

I like how my post where I did my best to not leave any room to retreat on defending Trumps action got ignored and the low hanging fruit of "not seeing a citation" is the reply that went out.

[BigToast]

Awaiting incoming Trumper deflection. It's like watching a tennis match in slow motion with 10 people on one side and one fat slob in a maga hat sitting on a lawn chair, drinking a schlitz while listening to Rush Limbaugh on his walkman on the other.

[Shalcker]

I already told you what crimes were committed:
Conspiracy to defraud the United States
https://www.justice.gov/jm/criminal-...acy-defraud-us
"but it also means to interfere with or obstruct one of its lawful governmental functions by deceit, craft or trickery, or at least by means that are dishonest"
Getting the DOJ to start an investigation based on completely made up nonsense for political gain is this.

That does not pertain to exchange in question, nor to Giuliani's work.
How can anything governmental be obstructed if there is no government investigation on Biden? How can it be attempt to defraud if nothing even had been presented?
You need to actually provide something false for it to be conspiracy.

...in fact, if you interpret it so broadly you could argue that whistleblower himself is guilty of conspiracy - as his complaints clearly obstructs Presidential functions.

Campaign finance violation for asking a foreign country to help in an election.
https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?...dition:prelim)

That "thing of value" bullshit again? Had anyone ever proven it in court for damaging information on opponent?

Soliciting a bribe.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/201

Oh, and the bribe one is automatic impeachment as per the constitution.

If you interpret it so broadly then that seems to be also directly applicable to Biden asking for prosecutor removal - as clearly he is using 1 billion of US aid (obviously thing of value) to "influence any official act".

[Xeones]

That "thing of value" bullshit again? Had anyone ever proven it in court for damaging information on opponent?

Are you asking if information has value?

Yes information is highly valuable, it's why facebook and google gets so much crap.

[Shalcker]

Are you asking if information has value?

I'm asking if this particular information in this particular case have ever been proven to be thing of value as precedent.

Yes information is highly valuable, it's why facebook and google gets so much crap.

Are you saying that IRA facebook ads were "thing of value" as well, in your opinion?

[nonameelf]

That does not pertain to exchange in question, nor to Giuliani's work.
How can anything governmental be obstructed if there is no government investigation on Biden? How can it be attempt to defraud if nothing even had been presented?
You need to actually provide something false for it to be conspiracy.

...in fact, if you interpret it so broadly you could argue that whistleblower himself is guilty of conspiracy - as his complaints clearly obstructs Presidential functions.

Did you forget the part where Attorney General Barr is involved in all this bullshit?

That "thing of value" bullshit again? Had anyone ever proven it in court for damaging information on opponent?

Information has value, yes. That's why people pay for opposition research.

A Ukrainian investigation into Biden to create a controversy is also a thing a value.

If you interpret it so broadly then that seems to be also directly applicable to Biden asking for prosecutor removal - as clearly he is using 1 billion of US aid (obviously thing of value) to "influence any official act".

No, it doesn't because Biden was negotiating on behalf of the US government. Trump was trying to gain something of personal value. It's a completely different situation.

[Xeones]

I'm asking if this particular information in this particular case have ever been proven to be thing of value as precedent.

Are you saying that IRA facebook ads were "thing of value" as well, in your opinion?

Well according to Trump it's worth about $250 million.

And I have no clue what you're talking about, it seemed clear to me that I was referring to user information.

[Orbitus]

I'm asking if this particular information in this particular case have ever been proven to be thing of value as precedent.

Are you saying that IRA facebook ads were "thing of value" as well, in your opinion?

Doesn't matter. The fact that he asked them, is illegal. And no, he is talking about Facebook selling your information, same with Google selling your search histories.

[Paranoid Android]

Because Trump is a moron he actually liked this tweet from Rep. Eric Swalwell.

Intimidating witnesses and threatening investigators is what most innocent people do when facing charges.

https://twitter.com/RepSwalwell/stat...672456193?s=19

This was responding to a tweet by Trump.

Rep. Adam Schiff illegally made up a FAKE & terrible statement, pretended it to be mine as the most important part of my call to the Ukrainian President, and read it aloud to Congress and the American people. It bore NO relationship to what I said on the call. Arrest for Treason?

So Trump does not understand Swalwell was tweeting about him (Trump).

[Machismo]

Not even that, don't give them that line. Trump is trying the claim credit for every good thing that happens in America, and that is fundamentally an extremely dishonest position. America has the world's largest economy, on any given day, big deals are being made and new investments are being made. This happens under every president.

What Trump is doing is that every time he is in desperate trouble, he trots these out and pretends he is somehow involved, when he fucking isn't. America is a great country, that has a great economy, it is full of great people and great tech. Trump is responsible for absolutely none of it. The deals Trump was personally involved in are the ones that have turned out to be poison for their communities, like the Foxxcon plant, and the whole coal industry.

Don't let this be about Trump, it isn't. The world still doesn't revolve around that traitor, even if Ghostpanther slaps his name on it for no reason.

Edit: My bad, Ghostpanther wasn't the one that slapped the name on. Fox Business did that. Point still stands, he just didn't do it himself, he just parroted it.

In the end, Trump is fighting against capitalism, almost every step of the way.

The irony is not lost on me.

- - - Updated - - -

Hey if my job numbers routinely got downgraded by dozens of thousands every month, I would brag about 600 jobs, too.

And yes, to put it in perspective, Trump's 2% GDP growth -- compared to, say, the 3% which is less than the 4% he promised -- pro-rated every month would be $16 billion. Trump is bragging about making back about one-quarter of the gap between "can you imagine never getting 3%?" to "oh, so this is what it's like to never get 3%"

I don't know if I have ever seen job numbers get downgraded as often as Trump's do. It's honestly rather interesting.

[Dontrike]

Because Trump is a moron he actually liked this tweet from Rep. Eric Swalwell.



https://twitter.com/RepSwalwell/stat...672456193?s=19

This was responding to a tweet by Trump.



So Trump does not understand Swalwell was tweeting about him (Trump).

Apparently not and actually believes that this is what the normal person does when they are innocent.

[swiftowner]

Could we not add pages upon pages of derailment from our resident Russian Trump shril. You are not going to get anywhere arguing with said person, so put the person on ignore, report for bad faith posting, and move on.

[kaid]

Does this mean Texas is in play or we're they safe districts? Will budget needed for battleground states instead need to be used for defense?

Hard to say it may just be a matter of a lot of these guys had never been in the minority in the house which really freaking sucks and then having to also deal with Trump a lot may be just saying this is simply not worth the bother.