The Brexit aftermath thread

[Mormolyce]

Nietzsche wrote an entire book condemning anti semetism. His anti Judaism was linked to his anti Christian views. The latter of which he accused of fomenting antisemitism over the ages.

Exactly, so you agree with me that this post here:

supporting a book that still directly supports the same anti-semitism that spawned the nazi party in the first place.

Is not a valid argument.

[Huehuecoyotl]

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...rty-britons-ey

So by the poll the people really have no idea where Labour stands. I'm sure we are all shocked.

They want to negotiate a good Brexit deal, to honour the result of 2016. Once they've done that, they want to put it to the people in a confirmation referendum with Remain as an option.

There you go. Not complicated at all, is it? It's almost as if the media are deliberately making it seem contradictory or confusing for their own ends.

I'm sure someone will now point to a Labour MP disagreeing with that position as "proof" that the confusion is there. Before you do, remember that there are dozens of MPs in the Tories that have done the same. But that gets reported very differently. Weird, eh?

[Mormolyce]

It's not about weather he did or not praise the antisemitism it's about the fact he wrote a foreword for a 100 year old book that has some very problematic views, this brings it into the publics eye and gives it

You may personally object to that, but that is not anti-Semitism, so you are wrong when you use that term to describe Corbyn's actions.

[Mormolyce]

They want to negotiate a good Brexit deal, to honour the result of 2016. Once they've done that, they want to put it to the people in a confirmation referendum with Remain as an option.

There you go. Not complicated at all, is it? It's almost as if the media are deliberately making it seem contradictory or confusing for their own ends.

To be honest, I do see why some people find Labour's position confusing. It's not very satisfactory, is it?

Frankly, on paper it's the same plan Theresa May had. And look how well that worked out.

At this point it is clear that there is no deal that the EU will offer that the UK would accept. Nor will a no-Deal Brexit make it through Parliament short of some extra-legal insanity arising from BoJo's Bizarre Adventure. So it's time to stop piss-farting around and put forward abandoning Brexit as a policy position.

[Jessicka]

It's a truly odd threat as I assume that the EU have access to TVs, newspapers, telephones and most probably the internet and therefore they know about the Benn Act and that Boris cannot possibly go through with it.

But I guess you're more the target audience...

Still I look forward to Boris in his new clothes offering us some more Brexit magic beans.

It’s a bonkers threat because the EU are better prepared and hold all the cards on trade proportions and scale.

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https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...rty-britons-ey

So by the poll the people really have no idea where Labour stands. I'm sure we are all shocked.

That’s because, while Jez spelled out in crystal clarity what it is, much of the media are still peddling the confused message. And since people tend to read reports rather than listen to the horse’s mouth, no wonder they’re confused.

Shall I spell it out for you?

They will go to the EU, see what they offer against their, rather than Tory red lines, and then hold a referendum. It’s not complicated or confusing at all.

[Monster Hunter]

*some obsessive rubbish ment to get my attention*

Don't know why you bother when you posts get deleted.

But for the lols

The soviet Union funded many non socialist terror actors in the west as part of the destabilisation campaign, same as the us sponsored many non capitolists. On famous Little group of non socialists Sponsored by the soviet Union was Hamas.

Soviet support for the IRA is documented in there own files that were released, including a weapons deal in 1972
Some light reading for you
https://www.irishecho.com/2011/02/kg...-book-reveals/

The funding for the IRA was well Investigated, NORAID is well known, there was even a federal case forcing them to declare they were funding the IRA.

And your bit about political support just agrees with me.

I like that you have a little fetish for me, but get your facts right befor you try presenting your self as an knowledgeable stuff you know nothing about love.

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Exactly, so you agree with me that this post here:



Is not a valid argument.

It's a valid enough argument we use it in other instances

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You may personally object to that, but that is not anti-Semitism, so you are wrong when you use that term to describe Corbyn's actions.

It's promoting anti-sematism, whether you like it or not.

[Jessicka]

Gratz, you are not capable of following a conversation. I said it in the initial post and cleared it for the previous poster that it is not about me knowing. It's not about a tiny topic on a tiny gaming forum knowing. It's about the people of the UK being able to understand the Labour message. And the poll says, they don't. The party needs to do something about that. Or you know, you can take your attitude and go campaign door to door to explain Labours policies like you are trying to do here but that will likely be worthless.
If your party has to deal with hostile media, they need to find a way around them. Being right will get you nowhere.

I'm not a Labour party member or activist, I support the Greens. It's kind of absurd that it's me stuck here defending Labour. But even if I were, how would one face down mass news, and polls commissioned with the express purpose of reinforcing the 'confusion' about their policy; which in themselves can then be reported by everyone as 'news' as if its impartial.

I have these conversations one day with people, they 'get it' as it were, then a week or so later they're right back to the 'confused' message purely because of this shit. It's infuriating.

[Pann]

Gratz, you are not capable of following a conversation. I said it in the initial post and cleared it for the previous poster that it is not about me knowing. It's not about a tiny topic on a tiny gaming forum knowing. It's about the people of the UK being able to understand the Labour message. And the poll says, they don't. The party needs to do something about that. Or you know, you can take your attitude and go campaign door to door to explain Labours policies like you are trying to do here but that will likely be worthless.
If your party has to deal with hostile media, they need to find a way around them. Being right will get you nowhere.

The problem Labour face is that people want clarity - which is why the Cons still top the polls despite Johnson's antics and the Lib Dems have come from nothing to within touching distance of Lab - and Lab simply don't offer this.

We've had over three years of Brexit and people have had enough, they want to get on with their lives and the Cons or Lib Dems would put an end to it one way or another whereas a Lab government would spell another year (six months to renegotiate a deal then another six months or so for a ref.) of the same. When coupled with the fact, to paraphrase Steven Kinnock, Labour have had more positions [on Brexit] than the Karma Sutra people simply cannot know whether this will be Labour policy next month or even next week.

Then there is Labour's current policy - to renegotiate a better deal within six months and then put it to a referendum. It took Theresa May almost two years to negotiate the current deal with the EU so it is unclear how Labour would achieve their target of a better deal within the proposed time frame.

There is also the issue of what constitutes a better deal, Labour say they can achieve this by altering the UK's red lines but May's deal was already as soft as could be whilst respecting the issues at the core of Brexit - independent trade policy, FoM, no ECJ oversight, etc - so there is little incentive for leave voters to support Lab.

At the core of Lab's proposal (assuming it hasn't changed since) is a CU with the EU that would allow us to set our own trade policy which is at odds with the Treaty of Rome and is therefore simply not possible for the EU to agree to so it is not clear how they would stop their proposal failing at the first hurdle.

And lastly from the EU's perspective what is the point of spending the time, effort and money to renegotiate a deal when it is entirely possible that the UK will reject it, again.

In short people want a simple clear message and Lab's is anything but.

[Jessicka]

I mean on this, the only reasonable scenario on a Labour government right now is that there is a GE, the Tories win but cannot form a majority (there is no scenario of a GE as things are were Tories lose) and then Labour forms a broad coalition with half the coalition being SNP and Lib Dems who will vote down any deal because they simply want to Remain. I honestly don't see why the EU would waste their time.

Lib Dems aren't going to form a coalition with Labour. They already made it clear it's out of the question, even temporarily. Many of them were Tories, their voters tend to be frustrated Tories, and their policies are overall more aligned with Tories; they were even in a coalition with the Tories 4 years ago. Stop pretending a Lib-Lab coalition could happen, it won't.

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The old school solution for Labour would be to get their own media. The more modern approach is to focus on social media.

This is I believe what Momentum do.

[Monster Hunter]

I don't think there is a fetish, you are just one of the few people left who respond to the burner. Just let it . . .burn?

It seem like they do, using the psychological definition from the camberidge dictionary, they certainly seem to be spending an inordinate time just to look like a fool briefly befor there posts are deleted.

And I know I shouldn't reply, but when it posts something thats just that easy to show as wrong it's a low hanging fruit, I mean it's not like the KGB files haven't been opened so we can see who the Soviets were sponsoring, imagine still trying to run soviet agitaprop in 2019....

I enjoy how in the last one he called me infantile, yet he's the one so flustered he feels the need to keep making soc accounts.... Me thinks he doth protest to much.

[Jessicka]

I think that if Lib Dems refused to make a coalition with Labour and their intransigence killed a chance at a People's Vote or led to a No Deal Brexit, their voters would punish them for it.

Yeah, I thought that about their betrayal of the student vote and backing austerity, amongst other things. Problem with punishing them at a later GE, is that the damage is already done.

[Monster Hunter]

The only thing that let them bounce back was their clean Brexit stance. If they betray the Remainers by not doing everything they can for Remain, I think they'll be lost as a party. And I'd like to think they are not THAT stupid. More importantly, if they are very close to Labour on the popular vote, I think the most proper way to do a coalition would be with rotating leaders, something that might be acceptable to both sides.

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So now that the site is back.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...KBN1WG4SU?il=0
And specifically:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...send-brussels/

I ... I don't get it. What is the point?

You know, I want the EU leaders to just take BoJo down on the meeting and send him home with the original EU proposal (with NI essentially within the EEA, possibly with a sweetener like NI keeping their MEPs) just so he takes it home to get shot down by the ERG and see BXP soaring and compromising Tory seats. Because ultimately, how he behaves will be radically different without friendly press on him, not one on one but one vs 27.
But it won't happen. They'll just send him home with nothing.

That's sort of like a Hong Kong arrangement.

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Yeah, I thought that about their betrayal of the student vote and backing austerity, amongst other things. Problem with punishing them at a later GE, is that the damage is already done.

The student backlash should have thought them a lesson I'd hope. I've voted Green last 2 elections because of that. But now there the only safe shot at staying in the EU.

[Jessicka]

That's sort of like a Hong Kong arrangement.

Look how that’s working out...

[Monster Hunter]

Clearly they don't do it well.

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I think that if Lib Dems refused to make a coalition with Labour and their intransigence killed a chance at a People's Vote or led to a No Deal Brexit, their voters would punish them for it.

Momentum is pritty shit nowadays, it had Alot of promise when it first kicked off at the last election and it was part of what made corbyn suddenly shoot in popularity, but since then somethings happend internally and its no longer very effective as protest/campaign group. I haven't really looked into it as there generally irrelevent now but I think it was to do with the attempt to oust Tom Watson as well as a few of there leaders getting suspended over the anti sematism thing and then also there founder jhon lansmen comming out and saying Labour has a to quote him directly "a wide spread problem with antisemitism"

So easentialy labour infighting has rendered them neutered.

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Look how that’s working out...

Not very well. Giving Hongkong back Was a misake in hindsight.

This solution focuses on preventing IRA violance, but they forget the unionist paramilitary is just as bad and quick to violance, don't think they will take being seen as a seperate entitity to the UK very well and will likely take it out on the catholics.

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And I honestly think that is the only reason why they get that bounce back. If the media or Labour can make a good case that the Lib Dems are betraying Remainers through their intransigence, it will hit them and it will hit them hard.

Oh yea no doubt, there hard line no brexit stance mixed with labour's fence sitting + labour's general scandles, extream swing to far left for many people and the just generally embarising Interviews over the last 2 years, the the great tory implosion over no deal, it has been a huge boost to the Lib Dems who were at one point after the coalition below ukip on popularity, only having more MP's due to the odd safe seat. The party had only 6 seats after the coalition, 12 after mays surprise election, they now have 16 just from defectors joining them. You may think its a big ask to get 200 seats and your right but an awful lot of seats are being held by the slimmest margines, one place is tory by only 45 votes.

Will it be enough to win? Nah. But I can see them picking up 50 to 100 seats especialy in the south and London. But that's all they need to force labour into a coalition in which they can force corbyn to back remain and force him to scrap most of his disastrous policy's. And often times that's the point, if youre only option for goverment is a party that's gone Completly wacko or more torys the best bet is force them into a coalition that hand cuffs them into sanity.

[Monster Hunter]

What are the disastrous policies? 4 day week? A good start for a conversation at least for the service sector and white collar professions. Taking back control of services that were privatized to poor performance? Not exactly a bad idea. Giving more power to employees in large companies? Not something unique; it's something done in many social democracies and that generally works. I honestly don't see how his policies are far left. They do need further buy in from the right side of society which can be done in dialogue and can best be done in a coalition government.

4 day week as you know I'm against think I've made my argument enough on that so it's a take or leave it.

The privatisation I agree with, the way Labour wants to do it I don't, first they plan to compulsory purchase under the market value, as some one who's great grandfather was found hanging in the barn the last time the goverment went around forcing people to take penny's for there property I'm massively against any slight instance of the same practise, not to mention its whole illigal so to do it they would have to repeal the law that came in because people like my great grandad swung rather than lose everything. It also dosnt go far enough on energy and water, there privatisation is only for the infrastructure, the grid and network not the supply chain, and in top of that they plan to pay for it with borrowing, problem is that's not an automatic thing, as was pointed out in a financial paper, there will be reluctance to lend to a labour goverment with there current policy's, because turns out people and company's don't like lending money to have there own assets forcibly purchased under market value, so there will likly be very high risk premiums on the loans.

The 10% policy has a number of issues, first its only of benefit to people working at company's with over 250 staff and based in the UK, so that amazon wherehouse worker isn't going to get a stake in amazon, it will only benefit people that are allready in stable positions, further more it discourages company's from growing staff, why hire that 250th person if you lose 10% of your company, and then to top it off it dissuaded company's from having there HQ in the UK at a time when we're allready fighting to keep them because of brexit, the UK economy is largely based on big finance company's based in the UK for the London stocks and easy access to the EU, it a big part of our job sector and tax income. And there here because those other nations have those policy's. We are more friendly to them to our own benefit.

Those problems tell me exactly the root problem with corbyn, his ideas are pre thatcher, he's 40 years to late on all of those policy's and our current economic model would be seriously harmed to help the very few manufacturing workers we still have, and you could argue we can go back to a manufacturing based economy, but this really really isn't the time with Brexit to be talking about making very risky changes to our whole economy.

[draykorinee]

Bojo channeling his inner Trump, all rhetoric and no policy substance. Queue loud cheering from the attendees for a bunch of vacuous, hollow words.

[Pann]

The UK proposal;

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status...95630554390530

'UK plans have just landed in Brussels to try to replace the backstop - NI essentially in single market for goods, but Stormont votes on entering arrangements to start with, and then every four years

NI leaves customs union with rest of UK, checks done electronically, govt says small number of physical checks required take place only on business premises or along the supply chain - calls on both sides to rule out any checks at border for good - no plan for new infrastructure.

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status...96838262280194

Good luck with the Stormont part?!?

I guess @dribbles is happy that this is what we're presenting to the EU.

[Elegiac]

The UK proposal;

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status...95630554390530

'UK plans have just landed in Brussels to try to replace the backstop - NI essentially in single market for goods, but Stormont votes on entering arrangements to start with, and then every four years

NI leaves customs union with rest of UK, checks done electronically, govt says small number of physical checks required take place only on business premises or along the supply chain - calls on both sides to rule out any checks at border for good - no plan for new infrastructure.

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status...96838262280194

Good luck with the Stormont part?!?

I guess @dribbles is happy that this is what we're presenting to the EU.

So basically, their proposed replacement for the backstop is...

An open border.

Such sovereignty, much national self determination, wow.

[Pann]

Full text to the UK proposal; https://assets.publishing.service.go...to_Juncker.pdf

[Dizzeeyooo]

Today we'll see both the DUP & ERG 'reluctantly' acquiescencing & agreeing to support Johnson's proposal, making a song & dance that its despite their concerns

They do this in full knowledge it'll be rejected by the EU, so they can pivot & avoid blame - 'we moved why didnt they'

Sad but true.