View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #26221
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanforthis View Post
    If they hadn't voted, as they didn't in 2015, that would be a fair point. But voting conservative for the working class is something else entirely. Either they are stupid or misinformed, there's no way any one can justify that decision on rational grounds, it is like a turkey voting for Christmas.
    They have, but it's been Christmas for 4 decades so at this stage so....whatever really. BoJo was the best way to deliver Brexit, JC was painted as a risk to their very jobs (the working class are aware the free market doesn't do shit for them but they are risk averse to being unemployed) alongside dozens of other critiques that don't play well with the working class (failure to lead, weak on defence, questionable "friends" and a lack of perceived patriotism) and they simply didn't think the Labour manifesto could be delivered on (or like I said before, it would see them jobless).

    This wasn't an ideological win for free market economics, but a giant fuck you to the establishment (which they believe to be Remainers). None of it's true obviously but such is people and politics. What I've bolded is where you are underplaying the enthusiasm to "Get Brexit Done", the working class in the Red Wall are not Tory converts (yet) but this election they were happy to vote for anyone who promised that.

  2. #26222
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanforthis View Post
    Oh I'm not underplaying that, I agree it was important. What I'm less clear on is whether Brexit in itself is appealing to the working class or whether the newspapers brainwashed them into thinking that. To some extent if the Tories wanted to feed children to dragons the newspapers would find a way to rationalize it. I suspect Brexit does have some appeal beyond that but there are severe dangers on focusing on policy when whatever Labour or other left-wing parties do will be misrepresented.
    There is certainly a disconnect between what people believe Brexit means, and what it's going to mean. That's what happens when you put snake-oil salesmen in charge of selling political ideas. At this point you would probably find people willing to believe that Brexit will sort out the hospitals, the housing crisis, the spread of zero-hour contracts and every other ill in this country. Add that to the people that are genuinely racist and see it as a means to get rid of foreigners and you have a potent mix.

    Of course it won't fix any of these things, and will make many of them worse. I'd be interested to see how the Tories try and spin it when Brexit does literally nothing for the number of foreign workers they are allowing into the country, just like they've done nothing whatsoever to control the parts of immigration they could for the last 9 years. I fully expect them to start counting the numbers differently so that they can point to a "fall" and the morons that read the Mail will rejoice.
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  3. #26223
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    There is certainly a disconnect between what people believe Brexit means, and what it's going to mean. That's what happens when you put snake-oil salesmen in charge of selling political ideas.
    They had three years to find out what Brexit means. THREE YEARS.
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  4. #26224
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    They had three years to find out what Brexit means. THREE YEARS.
    They’ve been told it has to happen before it can be done.

    I mean, that Brexiters have been so cloak and dagger about what they want should ring alarm bells but I guess the super secret of plan has to be super secret to get one over on the EU.

    They’ve been led to believe we really do hold all the cards and the nationalists fundamentally have to believe that. English exceptionalism is a huge factor here.

  5. #26225
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    There is certainly a disconnect between what people believe Brexit means, and what it's going to mean. That's what happens when you put snake-oil salesmen in charge of selling political ideas. At this point you would probably find people willing to believe that Brexit will sort out the hospitals, the housing crisis, the spread of zero-hour contracts and every other ill in this country. Add that to the people that are genuinely racist and see it as a means to get rid of foreigners and you have a potent mix.

    Of course it won't fix any of these things, and will make many of them worse. I'd be interested to see how the Tories try and spin it when Brexit does literally nothing for the number of foreign workers they are allowing into the country, just like they've done nothing whatsoever to control the parts of immigration they could for the last 9 years. I fully expect them to start counting the numbers differently so that they can point to a "fall" and the morons that read the Mail will rejoice.
    They already do that, they focus on just EU net immigration or even EU8 (polish etc) coming down. Its easy to spin, you just have to make sure no one notices that immigration has barely gone down in 10 years and that it was 2/3rds white europeans predominately christian and now its 2/3rds various ethnicities and religions.
    Any racist or nationalist person should have serious fears over the governments proposals to subsidise bringing more foreign doctors and nurses in, but that doesnt really fit the narrative of the evil european stealing your job and suppressing your wage!

  6. #26226
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    They’ve been told it has to happen before it can be done.

    I mean, that Brexiters have been so cloak and dagger about what they want should ring alarm bells but I guess the super secret of plan has to be super secret to get one over on the EU.

    They’ve been led to believe we really do hold all the cards and the nationalists fundamentally have to believe that. English exceptionalism is a huge factor here.
    They'll find out in about a month and a week.
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  7. #26227
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    They'll find out in about a month and a week.
    It'll take longer than that. Reality takes a fair while to penetrate things that dense. I expect people to still be saying "isn't Brexit wonderful" when the choice is whether to eat stray dogs or tramps.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.
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    It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it... anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.

  8. #26228
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojojojo202 View Post
    Strategy from opposition parties should be to philibuster the fuck out of Boris' Brexit bill.

    Really for no other reason than he'd then have to spend 2 weeks squirming about why he has failed (again) to 'get Brexit done'.
    That's not how that would go down in the media and the public. People know what filibustering is and he won the election based on public anger at MP's seemingly delaying brexit. Filibustering would just play stright into his propaganda directly.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    It's all I've ever heard him preach on the rise of populism. It's like he hit upon this and then decided it was such a brilliant insight that he needs to repeat it in every bit of content he produces. There definitely is an element of anti-intellectualism to Brexit but that's not why the Red Wall fell, what people in Leave constituencies wanted was to have their voice heard and whilst this wasn't an ideological victory for the Conservative party in the way that Thatcher winning in 79, Leavers were happy to risk the Conservatives because there is no trust in Labour to deliver atm. Having been completely ignored, abandoned or betrayed for 40 years, that's the unsurprising part, not this attempt to insert an American narrative into our politics.

    In saying that GL to Thornberry in trying to get anyone to believe shes not exactly one of these "Elitists" lol.
    An interview with an old labour mp who lost his seat was interesting in that matter.

    He basicly said the problem runs far deeper than brexit and corbyn. The red wall has been crumbling slowly for decades, they belived Blair had managed to reverse the rot but in the end it was just a pause, but for decades there majority has been slowly shrinking in those seats.

    He wasn't suprised the Red Wall fell, aparantly that was expected at some point eventually, he was suprised how quickly brexit excelerated the loss.

    The challenge now is how Labour can ever win elections without Scotland (lost to the SNP) and without the Red Wall. As the inner city Liberal vote can be flaky and there's not enough seats with only that demographic to win.

  9. #26229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarithmonger View Post
    I don't expect reality to penetrate, ever. It hasn't my whole lifetime. When the perception of everything is controlled by the media you can get with anything.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Vague, unsourced, anecdote.....
    Channel 4, the interview was him and that Rory guy who went for conservative leader but was then kicked out of the party by bojo

  10. #26230
    Herald of the Titans Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    That's not how that would go down in the media and the public. People know what filibustering is and he won the election based on public anger at MP's seemingly delaying brexit. Filibustering would just play stright into his propaganda directly.

    - - - Updated - - -



    An interview with an old labour mp who lost his seat was interesting in that matter.

    He basicly said the problem runs far deeper than brexit and corbyn. The red wall has been crumbling slowly for decades, they belived Blair had managed to reverse the rot but in the end it was just a pause, but for decades there majority has been slowly shrinking in those seats.

    He wasn't suprised the Red Wall fell, aparantly that was expected at some point eventually, he was suprised how quickly brexit excelerated the loss.

    The challenge now is how Labour can ever win elections without Scotland (lost to the SNP) and without the Red Wall. As the inner city Liberal vote can be flaky and there's not enough seats with only that demographic to win.
    Interesting. The exact same is said about the social democrats in germany and austria. And both are loosing massively in the polls. And yeah, i can somehow understand it.

    At least for the socialist democrats in my country they try to invoke what they've done for the workers the past 100 years. And its true, they have achieved a lot of good things, but you cannot dwell in the past.

    I come from a very socialist background, but i have lost all faith in them, because in my opinion, they try to act like its 1920, not 2020, not seeing that modern problems require modern solutions. Things like the "new proletariat" - the fast food workers, UBER drivers, etc. - they're not reached by them at all. And "classical" workers... there are not that many left, and maybe as long as they seem themselves as workers parties, they will shrink the same amount as workers do in the labor force.

    Anyway, actual reason for posting: I tuned out of the news the past weeks. So after BoJo won and Brexit seems to be a go: What is the solution for Ireland?

  11. #26231
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarithmonger View Post
    I don't expect reality to penetrate, ever. It hasn't my whole lifetime. When the perception of everything is controlled by the media you can get with anything.
    It's more than that. It's denialism, it won't sink in because it's something they want to be right about in the face of all evidence to the contrary. It's like flat earthers, global warming deniers, and all the rest. No surprise really that these are things that encompass the same demographics.

  12. #26232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Interesting. The exact same is said about the social democrats in germany and austria. And both are loosing massively in the polls. And yeah, i can somehow understand it.

    At least for the socialist democrats in my country they try to invoke what they've done for the workers the past 100 years. And its true, they have achieved a lot of good things, but you cannot dwell in the past.

    I come from a very socialist background, but i have lost all faith in them, because in my opinion, they try to act like its 1920, not 2020, not seeing that modern problems require modern solutions. Things like the "new proletariat" - the fast food workers, UBER drivers, etc. - they're not reached by them at all. And "classical" workers... there are not that many left, and maybe as long as they seem themselves as workers parties, they will shrink the same amount as workers do in the labor force.

    Anyway, actual reason for posting: I tuned out of the news the past weeks. So after BoJo won and Brexit seems to be a go: What is the solution for Ireland?
    Customs Boarder in the Irish Sea I think was agreed between the UK and EU. So easentialy NI for customs purposes is still in the EU and has no boarder or anything like that and goods get checked and passports needed to come into the mainland.

    Dup are screaming like the sky's falling and thousands of babies are getting aborted, but jhonson dosnt need them anymore. And the general reaction I've felt from at least my local area to Northern Ireland has always been "fuck em" so the "its breaking up the union" line isn't taking at leas round here.

    Im starting to think that the gov and political class seriously over estimate the English working classes enthusiasm for keeping the UK whole.

    Other than that it's Xmas and the govs got enough majority to do as they wish and not many seem to be talking about round me anymore.

  13. #26233
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    Im starting to think that the gov and political class seriously over estimate the English working classes enthusiasm for keeping the UK whole.
    I mean they must have ignored the poll that basically had Brexit but X happens list with english Brexiteers and the polls showed they would still want brexit if it meant.

    Labour became government (without Corbyn)
    LD were in government
    Scotland leaves
    N.Ireland leaves.
    Wales Leaves.

    In fact the only thing that would have made them go against brexit would be in Brexit brought in Corbyn as PM.

  14. #26234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Just out of curiosity.. What will you people come up with when the British people remain eating cow and pigs, rather than dogs?
    They won't be able to come up with anything. Just as Nazi collaborators were once hunted and brought to justice, when the Brexit dust settles, these current day EU sympathisers who tried to subvert UK democracy (BBC Laura's words, not mine) should not have the chance to ever commit such heinous acts again. What penalties they should face is yet to be decided, I hope new laws take care of them for a very long time.

    I expect these treasonous remainers, having colluded with the EU enemy, will keep their heads down in shame when asked by their grandkids "What did you do for UK freedom during the Brexit age Grandpa?" They'll probably even pretend to be brexiteer heros when in fact they were the exact traitorous opposites...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    I mean they must have ignored the poll that basically had Brexit but X happens list with english Brexiteers and the polls showed they would still want brexit if it meant.

    Labour became government (without Corbyn)
    LD were in government
    Scotland leaves
    N.Ireland leaves.
    Wales Leaves.

    In fact the only thing that would have made them go against brexit would be in Brexit brought in Corbyn as PM.
    All this talk of the UK breaking up after Brexit is bunkum, the most vocal being in Scotland was settled for generation very recently. The Queen of England hasn't finished ruling up there yet whether they like it or not. When last asked in 2014 they said they liked it...that question has been answered.

  15. #26235
    Merely a Setback CommunismWillWin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Same goes for you, Tory.. What are you going to do if you can no longer distract the people with Brexit?
    Fuck everybody over with a right-wing style breexit. The US is gonna love it though.
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  16. #26236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    I mean they must have ignored the poll that basically had Brexit but X happens list with english Brexiteers and the polls showed they would still want brexit if it meant.

    Labour became government (without Corbyn)
    LD were in government
    Scotland leaves
    N.Ireland leaves.
    Wales Leaves.

    In fact the only thing that would have made them go against brexit would be in Brexit brought in Corbyn as PM.
    Probly should have had that as a stratagy for remain.

    You can have brexit but corbyn is the pm. Would have killed brexit dead haha.

    But on a serious note I think your right at this point brexit has gone from a debatable ideological thing to becoming almost a point of stubborn pride that they won the ref and now they will do litteraly anything to have the result implemented.

    But even without brexit, using the dissolution of the union as a threat wouldn't get much traction amongst the majority of the public because they/we simply don't care, Scotland, NI and Wales going independant has no real negative consequences for us so other than some appeal to history and notions of British nationalism (that is vastly smaller than English, Scottish, Welsh nationalism) there's not really anything that would make the averedge working person care. Also historically the people of Scotland and England never wanted the union to begin with, it took the King and the Lords some serious back hand bribes to both parliaments to pull it off and at the time the common folk couldn't vote.

    But I could be biased in my assessment, my family is descended from boarder reavers so we lost alot of money and the family trade with the act of union.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CommunismWillWin View Post
    Fuck everybody over with a right-wing style breexit. The US is gonna love it though.
    Doubt it. News atm is Boris is giving trump the cold shoulder.

  17. #26237
    Haha comparing remainers to nazi sympathisers.

    Hate to break it to you but Brexit is the nazi sympathisers winning. Remember Brexit is a product of the far Right to keep the immigrants out that could enter under EU law. Everything else after was just dressing up to big to get the common man to vote for it.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  18. #26238
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Same goes for you, Tory.. What are you going to do if you can no longer distract the people with Brexit?

    What will be your excuse for the economic failing if you cannot blame it all on the EU?
    Change the way you count things so that it looks like the economy isn't getting worse. Blame anyone that was originally from a foreign country. Blame anyone that isn't white. Blame Labour for leaving a note that says "there's no money left". Blame the EU for not giving us a better deal.

    The Tories have always been good at redirecting failure to anyone that isn't them. With the help of the MSM, of course.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.
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    It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it... anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.

  19. #26239
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    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    They won't be able to come up with anything. Just as Nazi collaborators were once hunted and brought to justice, when the Brexit dust settles, these current day EU sympathisers who tried to subvert UK democracy (BBC Laura's words, not mine) should not have the chance to ever commit such heinous acts again. What penalties they should face is yet to be decided, I hope new laws take care of them for a very long time.

    I expect these treasonous remainers, having colluded with the EU enemy, will keep their heads down in shame when asked by their grandkids "What did you do for UK freedom during the Brexit age Grandpa?" They'll probably even pretend to be brexiteer heros when in fact they were the exact traitorous opposites...



    All this talk of the UK breaking up after Brexit is bunkum, the most vocal being in Scotland was settled for generation very recently. The Queen of England hasn't finished ruling up there yet whether they like it or not. When last asked in 2014 they said they liked it...that question has been answered.
    1. The last English monarch died in 1603, after which the throne of England was inherited by James the King of Scotland. The monarchy has far more German and Scottish blood than English in it.

    2. The eu isn't our enemy, even with this brexit disaster they are still our closes allies, far closer than America is or will ever be.

    3. Remainers are not traitors, they fundementaly belive leaving the eu will cause our country deep economic harm they are acting in what they belive is the national interest and for the good of the nation, a traitor fundementaly acts against there own nation with malicious intent.

    4.language like that is why politics is so toxic atm.

    5. There won't be new laws to punish Remainers, this is a parliamentary democracy with freedom of expression and systems used to safe guard the nation against bad decisions, systems they legitimately used in hopes to buy time that the public might change there mind, the public didn't in a large enough way but those systems are legitimate, legal and nessesary in an adversarial parliamentary system.

  20. #26240
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    I expect these treasonous remainers, having colluded with the EU enemy, will keep their heads down in shame when asked by their grandkids "What did you do for UK freedom during the Brexit age Grandpa?"
    Speaking as one of those Remainers, I can tell you what I'm going to be doing for the next 5 years. I'll be waiting (breath as unbaited as it can get) to see all those unicorns you promised us. To see all the economic and social benefits that we were absolutely told we would get if only we just got Brexit done. If we see them, then maybe you'll get an apology out of me.

    But more likely what we will see is an utter train-wreck of a "solution" in desparate search for the problems it was supposed to fix. The country getting worse as a result of how this lazy feckless PM manages the whole process. And all those right-wing fuckwits that pushed the whole thing through looking for new excuses and new targets for why it failed.

    I never wanted this, but at least we get to see Brexit in all its glory. You can't hide behind it not being done right. You can't hide behind it being managed by Remainers. You are going to get the Brexit you wanted, and when it fucks up you get to own the responsibility for it. It wasn't my choice for the outcome, but at least it stops you all sitting on the sidelines whinging about how good it could have been. We all get to see how good an idea Brexit was, and you'll have nowhere to hide.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.
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    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
    It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it... anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.

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