The Brexit aftermath thread

[Tinch]

So we would essentially move the border to the Irish Sea? The DUP have already said they will stand for this.

I never said that there would be a wave of EU nationals doing this however I thought one of the reasons for Brexit was to control our borders yet we are proposing to leave our only land border wide open.

No I mean you actually present ID when you jump on a ferry at the moment, at which point anyone who was illegally in the country would likely be picked up.

[Pann]

Eh, you are asking that the RoI be forced to also leave the EU (because that's what you are suggesting entails) because the UK arbitrarily decided to do so? Look, if I shoot myself in my kidney, I am not going to ask you to give me yours so we can both have one.

I'm not asking for anything. But if it is okay to ride roughshod over the wishes of one country's citizens then why is not okay to suggest the same for another?

[Tinch]

Really this is why the best answer is to move the border at sea and keep NI in the SM. It's easy to split people at a port or airport, not as easy in the road.

I mean it's not just a bus. Earlier there was talk of checking car plates automatically; what's stopping you from bringing friends over in the car with you?

And again this still presumes that there will be no regulatory deviation in NI from the EU.

That's an untenable option, for RoI as well as NI. 80% of RoI's exports travel through the UK at some point.

[Pann]

No I mean you actually present ID when you jump on a ferry at the moment, at which point anyone who was illegally in the country would likely be picked up.

That is moving the Irish border to the sea. It could also mean that Ireland starts to experience the issues faced by other European ports with illegal stowaways.

[Dizzeeyooo]

That's an untenable option, for RoI as well as NI. 80% of RoI's exports travel through the UK at some point.

not really, it just requires the UK to align with NI/RoI after brexit

brexit means brexit btw

[Pann]

Because the first side made a decision to change the status quo, it is their responsibility ENTIRELY to accomodate all the other parties they did not take into account whatsoever when they made that decision. The RoI made no decision whatsoever to change the status quo. It is the UK which wants to abandon one of the pillars that made the GFA possible so it is entirely up to them to seek solutions.

Whether RoI made a decision to change the status quo is neither here nor there the reality is that the status quo is going to change and the RoI is far more reliant on the UK for economic prosperity than NI is to the EU. Moving RoI's borders to the sea would not abandon the GFA and would ensure that the RoI continues to receive economic benefit from the UK - so there you go - there's a solution to the problem.

Of course I never said that it was an acceptable or even a workable solution but neither of these minor hurdles seem to stop people putting forward the same proposition for NI as the best answer to the problem.

[Tinch]

Look, the NI can keep with regulatory conformity with the RoI OR with the UK. It cannot do both. Maybe the government should have thought of all these issues before pushing for this referendum and then acting on it. It's tiresome to keep getting asked by people from the UK for solutions for a problem they caused. We don't have any.

I agree with you, I have said that the onus is on the UK government to come up with a solution to the Irish border, but even so it doesn't make the proposal to have the border in the Irish sea anymore rational.

Any issues with a border between RoI and NI are magnified ten-fold with a border between all of Ireland and the rest of the UK.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Moving RoI's borders to the sea would not abandon the GFA and would ensure that the RoI continues to receive economic benefit from the UK - so there you go - there's a solution to the problem

suggesting that the Republic of Ireland leaves the EU just to make the process of the UK leaving the EU slightly easier is almost stupid enough to be amusing

Any issues with a border between RoI and NI are magnified ten-fold with a border between all of Ireland and the rest of the UK.

that was the point of Brexit though? we voted to make dealings with Europe (including Ireland) massively more difficult in exchange for freedom, sovereignty and blue passports, right?

[Deleted]

The sea border (acting as a hard border, what the IRISH government suggested) requires Britain to treat the island of Ireland as a single entity with border and possibly customs checks at ports and airports. Which means people in NI are effectively treated as foriegners by the British mainland. Might as well have the long overdue talk about Irish reunification, solves the problem and the British no longer have to squat on the island.

(obviously a sea border is not palatable for the DUP who are propping up the Tory rags in government, so its off the cards because it will collapse the UK government.)

[Pann]

suggesting that the Republic of Ireland leaves the EU just to make the process of the UK leaving the EU slightly easier is almost stupid enough to be amusing

I haven't suggested anything of the sort. And that it quite dishonest selective quoting.

[Dizzeeyooo]

I haven't suggested anything of the sort. And that it quite dishonest selective quoting.

Why not move the RoI border to the sea and keep them aligned with the UK?

what do you think "keeping RoI aligned with the UK" means, if not RoI leaving the EU?

[Pann]

The sea border (acting as a hard border, what the IRISH government suggested) requires Britain to treat the island of Ireland as a single entity with border and possibly customs checks at ports and airports. Which means people in NI are effectively treated as foriegners by the British mainland. Might as well have the long overdue talk about Irish reunification, solves the problem and the British no longer have to squat on the island.

(obviously a sea border is not palatable for the DUP who are propping up the Tory rags in government, so its off the cards because it will collapse the UK government.)

From what I understand there is little appetite for reunification in either the North or the Republic.

[Mayhem]

I'm not asking for anything. But if it is okay to ride roughshod over the wishes of one country's citizens then why is not okay to suggest the same for another?

Because the citizens of one country out of these two had no say in what lead to this situation?

[Pann]

what do you think "keeping RoI aligned with the UK" means, if not RoI leaving the EU?

What did the part of my post that you left out say? Here, I'll help you - "Of course I never said that it was an acceptable or even a workable solution..." I also wrote "I know that they probably wouldn't want this but what the citizens want doesn't seem to matter when talking about the NI's border. " and "I'm not asking for anything. But if it is okay to ride roughshod over the wishes of one country's citizens then why is not okay to suggest the same for another?"

I would have thought it obvious that this was not a serious a suggestion.

[Demolitia]

Whether RoI made a decision to change the status quo is neither here nor there the reality is that the status quo is going to change and the RoI is far more reliant on the UK for economic prosperity than NI is to the EU. Moving RoI's borders to the sea would not abandon the GFA and would ensure that the RoI continues to receive economic benefit from the UK - so there you go - there's a solution to the problem.

Of course I never said that it was an acceptable or even a workable solution but neither of these minor hurdles seem to stop people putting forward the same proposition for NI as the best answer to the problem.

Frankly whatever agreement and solution is found for NI/RoI will probably be applicable between the EU and UK as a whole. That's one tricky example because it is the only physical border, but this could broadly define the temporary arrangement until permanent agreements are signed. In that sense it is wrong to say that the EU should bend the knee because the RoI would take a hit (13% of their exports go to the UK). There are 26 other countries with stakes in this.

Nobody said it's the best answer. But of the 3 in the December agreement it's the only one that is fully fleshed out. 27 Member States managed to agree on a solution that would essentially allow free movement on the island, while keeping a necessary border somewhere.

- - - Updated - - -

From what I understand there is little appetite for reunification in either the North or the Republic.

The Republic probably doesn't want to subsidize the economic wasteland that is NI.

[Demolitia]

I mean the Dutch export nearly as much as well.

Yes. What I meant is that it will be affected but it will not stop altogether, so it's not like the UK is holding RoI by the balls and they'll file for bankruptcy if there are border checks.

[Dizzeeyooo]

I would have thought it obvious that this was not a serious a suggestion.

correct, but then why are you comparing it to the actual suggestion of keeping NI aligned with RoI/EU after Brexit if all else fails, which the UK government found serious enough to agree to in December?

[Pann]

correct, but then why are you comparing it to the actual suggestion of keeping NI aligned with RoI/EU after Brexit if all else fails, which the UK government found serious enough to agree to in December?

Did I not make it obvious enough for you? I compared it because I would like those, who despite not knowing much at all about Ireland, put this idea forward as the best solution to think what it would be like if the boot was on the other foot, so to speak, and as you you can see they seem to think that it would be unacceptable when applied to RoI. If a solution is unacceptable for one country it does not become acceptable for another because you started it.

[Dizzeeyooo]

If a solution is unacceptable for one country it does not become acceptable for another because you started it.

what country finds the EU "if all else fails" option unacceptable? Ireland agreed to it before December or it would not have been put forward in the first place, the UK government agreed to it in December (after quibbling over the language used to keep the DUP happy) when phase 1 concluded - so where is the country that finds it unacceptable?

[Demolitia]

correct, but then why are you comparing it to the actual suggestion of keeping NI aligned with RoI/EU after Brexit if all else fails, which the UK government found serious enough to agree to in December?

She signed the agreement in December, and made the statement that the UK would not stay in the customs union a few days later.
The understanding at the time was probably that the UK would stay in the customs union in a worst case scenario, until a better solution is found. The worst case scenario just got a bit worse as it would require a special status for NI.
So plan A is not viable in the foreseeable as it depends on the future trade agreement.
Plan B exists only in May's head, maybe. We have yet to hear about it.
She destroyed plan C in the week following its signature.

I really hope she will give a proper speech tomorrow, and follow through with it.
If she says Brexit means Brexit one more time ...