The Brexit aftermath thread

[dribbles]

Really? http://costofbrexit.bitballoon.com/

Heatstroke? That's pretty bad for you. One day quite accurately and sensibly discussing the high GP% of coffee and the next using a source from a template website an 8 year old knocked up in their dinner break. As for the Bank of England, I am surprised arch remainer George Osbornes mate is still running it, and its well known flawed data and projections which that site supposedly uses, claims ridiculously that a police officer costs 19k per annum rather than the actual six figure sum they cost per officer per year.

And for every one of those 40, there are 5 Tory MPs that would revolt if they tried to implement the wet dream of that hard Brexit crowd. And a shit-load of MPs of other parties that wouldn't go along with it. Which makes the position of these lunatics nothing more than impotent posturing. They can cause trouble, like the children they are, but they have no chance of getting what they want. And they know it. They are posing to impress the gullible and hard of thinking. Which apparently includes you.

If Corbyn, as he said yesterday, wants to bring about an early general election his best, no only chance of achieving that is to collaborate with Rees-mogg and to patiently wait for those Tory Mp's to call it, then back them.

Speaking to BBC’s Sunday Politics, he said: “We would vote against it and challenge it in Parliament and hope to force a general election on that basis.”

It is not just 40 tory mps. Oh speaking of Corbyn, who must also be a great believer in the Brexit dividend, he also promised yesterday;-

Jeremy Corbyn promises an extra £22.4bn for the NHS - £2 billion more than the Tories
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...224bn-12827645

That Brexit dividend sure keeps getting bigger and bigger.

Every economic expert around has made it clear that Brexit is going to reduce the amount of money available, not increase it. The Brexit dividend is a lie. And you might have a little better access to the NHS, but there will be fuck all people left to work in it, because such a high proportion of them currently come from abroad. And if house prices collapse (rather than being properly managed to a more affordable level) we will be looking at another 2008. That isn't going to be good for anyone, even if house prices do fall.

Are you a big fan of the Bank of Englands economic experts too by any chance, perhaps the EU funded IMF "experts"? and since when have house prices collapsed? did your experts tell you they have? Show me somewhere, anywhere that house prices are lower and more affordable than they were 20 years ago. Here's the thing, don't bother, you won't be able to.

[Mafic]

So on a scale of pretty bad to a Venezuela level of decay, how do you guys think this will play out for the UK?

Argentina super lite.

In other words a blip on the radar.

[Mormolyce]

The EU got issues and will always have issues just like any other form of governing.
However the 'EU is about to implode' posts are always amusing since it has been said for the past 10 years.

I could swear a year ago someone bet me the EU would have collapsed a year from then, and I said I'd see them then.

I really should've saved a link.

[Slant]

The Brexit referendum is a stain for democracy however you cut it. It will be used as an argument against democracy for decades. Imo a second referendum is the most painless solution.

The most painless solution would be for May to pull the white rabbit out of the hat with a triumphant... or demure, I don't care... "Well, we tried. It's not doable... back to business and nobody ever mention Brexit again!" before cancelling the whole show.

That's her job, after all. Give it a good try and then decide for the good of the country. It's not a binding referendum, we know it. It's just binding, because she said so. She can cancel the whole thing.

[Slant]

That would be damaging to democracy. It would make the referendum a sham. The government has invested a lot of time making it clear that the referendum is the Will of the People, however much that may be a lie.

If May tries to pull out, the Brexiteers in the Tories will pull the carpet beneath her feet. If she ambushes everyone with a new referendum, there is a better chance she survives this.

The referendum was a sham. There's no nice way to say it. But it was. One side arrogantly didn't compete, they put a monumental shift in the country's geopolitical position to a yes/no vote without explaining the consequences and did absolutely not have enough public discourse about the subject before having the referendum. What they had was a shitfest of a mudslinging contest instead of proper politics.

And May won't survive this. She's known it the day she took the job. There's no way she's going to stay in power after this.

[Noradin]

That would be damaging to democracy. It would make the referendum a sham. The government has invested a lot of time making it clear that the referendum is the Will of the People, however much that may be a lie.

If May tries to pull out, the Brexiteers in the Tories will pull the carpet beneath her feet. If she ambushes everyone with a new referendum, there is a better chance she survives this.

No it wouldn't, it would probably cost her her position, but democracy in the UK is ab out the parliament, not about some referendum.
That is why it is non-binding. Keeping to the referendum despite it being this close and pretending it is binding and binds the parliament is what is damaging democracy in the UK. Because it is a sham so the politicans can avoid fulfilling their responsibilty and keep receiving their benefits.

[Deleted]

The Brexit referendum is a stain for democracy however you cut it. It will be used as an argument against democracy for decades. Imo a second referendum is the most painless solution.

Much as I dislike Brexit I'm not going to support the notion that democracy can be overturned on an arbitary basis on the whim of a political elite.

[Noradin]

Much as I dislike Brexit I'm not going to support the notion that democracy can be overturned on an arbitary basis on the whim of a political elite.

There is nothing arbitary about the referendum (like every referendum in the UK) being advisatory only and non-binding.
Democracy in the UK happens by voting for parliament. That's it.

So arbitarily declaring this referendum "the will of the people" and claiming it must therefore be binding despite being just barely decisive at all is overturning democracy on the whim of the political elite. Not the other way around.


(Please note that I'm not in favour of allowing the UK to cancel Brexit. I don't care what they vote or how many referendums they hold.)

[Pann]

Heatstroke? That's pretty bad for you. One day quite accurately and sensibly discussing the high GP% of coffee and the next using a source from a template website an 8 year old knocked up in their dinner break. As for the Bank of England, I am surprised arch remainer George Osbornes mate is still running it, and its well known flawed data and projections which that site supposedly uses, claims ridiculously that a police officer costs 19k per annum rather than the actual six figure sum they cost per officer per year.

Ah, yes... I forgot that you only trust figures when they are on the side of a bus.

[Noradin]

I am not sure what is worse for democracy anymore on the Brexit case. Upholding a non-binding referendum that was argued for in bad faith? Simply denying it? Making a new one?

How about admitting that it is non-binding and that therefore all responsibility lies with the politicans in charge?
They have to learn to live without their constant scapegoating some time...

[Deleted]

I am not sure what is worse for democracy anymore on the Brexit case. Upholding a non-binding referendum that was argued for in bad faith? Simply denying it? Making a new one?

I don't recall an election in my lifetime that wasn't in bad faith. That argument can be used to remove a government for power for some arbitary chicanery that all parties get up to. I do not want to set a precedent for overturning democracy on some cherry-picked instance of ethically grey practice.

I don't think you understand how dangerous such a precedent can be. This is far more important than the EU issue.

- - - Updated - - -

There is nothing arbitary about the referendum (like every referendum in the UK) being advisatory only and non-binding.

Yes, and parliament subsequently voted on it.

[Noradin]

Yes, and parliament subsequently voted on it.

And the parliament can vote on it again if they change their mind.
They are representatives, not spokespersons.

They do not get to hide behind the "will of the people" for all eternity if the "will of the people" is a advisory referendum that was barely decisive. It is their job and responsibility to disregard it if and when they find doing so beneficial for their country and its citisens.*
It is disghusting that the electorate of the UK lets them hide behind scapegoarts all the time. First it was the EU, now it is the "will of the people (non-binding referendum)", oh, and don't forget "evil Merkle and her hordes of brown people and polish plumbers".

*Not that disregarding it now should have any effect, the UK does not get to take back Article 50 unilaterally without consequences and concessions on their part.

[dribbles]

Ah, yes... I forgot that you only trust figures when they are on the side of a bus.

Not just figures on the side of a bus. I quite like these figures...

According to a recent yougov poll,

Only 9% of voters (lib dems I guess, are they still even a party?) support a party with a policy to remain in the EU.
And 82% of voters support parties who would leave the EU. Thats a decisive vote for Brexit.



What would be the point of another referendum? and why are there so many 9 percenters on this forum? Just they are more vocal and cry louder?

I'm with the silent overwhelming majority.

[Pann]

Not just figures on the side of a bus. I quite like these figures...

According to a recent yougov poll,

Only 9% of voters (lib dems I guess, are they still even a party?) support a party with a policy to remain in the EU.
And 82% of voters support parties who would leave the EU. Thats a decisive vote for Brexit.



What would be the point of another referendum? and why are there so many 9 percenters on this forum? Just they are more vocal and cry louder?

I'm with the silent overwhelming majority.

Too obvious... and by the way the most recent poll show Labour dropping a few points. Go Jezza!

But where are you in this?



or this?



It would appear that not many think Brexit will make anything better. Although I suppose some might say that less immigration is better.

It, also, seems that the perception that Brexit was the right decision has shifted;



and given May's and her government's dismal performance perception is likely to shift even further to the wrong decision in the future.

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You are completely off, the referendum was not binding so it wasn't even democratic to begin with.

Cameron's Government committed to delivering the referendum result whatever way it went and May was elected (just) on the promise of delivering Brexit. The fact that the referendum was not made legally binding is neither here nor there and does not make it undemocratic - this has been discussed several times already in this very thread.

[Deleted]

I'm with the silent overwhelming majority.

If only that were the case.

[dribbles]

Too obvious... and by the way the most recent poll show Labour dropping a few points. Go Jezza!

But where are you in this? <SNIP>

But Labour, a Brexit party, dropping in favour of the Conservatives, a Brexit party shows that more than 80% of voters would still vote for a Brexit supporting party. If peoples desire to remain in the EU were that strong surely they would be voting for a remain party?

I still maintain that a second referendum, when remainers at the polls are becoming rarer than hens teeth, is pointless. It is almost as though anyone prepared to vote for a remain party at a general election is gathered here on mmo-c.

I suppose the explanation could be that the obvious public stigma and embarassment present for openly supporting remain would mean they might do slightly better come actual polling day when polling is anonymous but I doubt by enough to swing a second referendum.

Explanation on the yougov specific polls you raise?

Two thirds think the government is handling brexit negotiations badly: well isn't that obvious? I suspect most people just think we should have gtfo months ago.

In what way will brexit be good or bad for Britain?: No sector in that poll shows that "bad" or the orange bar as a majority. Good result for Brexit no?

Slightly more people think Brexit was the wrong decision? hahaha yeah but not when it gets to the polling station when it counts.

[Pann]

But Labour, a Brexit party, dropping in favour of the Conservatives, a Brexit party shows that more than 80% of voters would still vote for a Brexit supporting party. If peoples desire to remain in the EU were that strong surely they would be voting for a remain party?

I still maintain that a second referendum, when remainers at the polls are becoming rarer than hens teeth, is pointless. It is almost as though anyone prepared to vote for a remain party at a general election is gathered here on mmo-c.

I suppose the explanation could be that the obvious public stigma and embarassment present for openly supporting remain would mean they might do slightly better come actual polling day when polling is anonymous but I doubt by enough to swing a second referendum.

Explanation on the yougov specific polls you raise?

Two thirds think the government is handling brexit negotiations badly: well isn't that obvious? I suspect most people just think we should have gtfo months ago.

In what way will brexit be good or bad for Britain?: No sector in that poll shows that "bad" or the orange bar as a majority. Good result for Brexit no?

Slightly more people think Brexit was the wrong decision? hahaha yeah but not when it gets to the polling station when it counts.

Of course it does

I'm not in favour of a 2nd referendum but assuming what you say is correct the result would only serve to confirm the country's desire to leave. But it sounds like you're worried what the result would be.

Haha, good one!

No overall sector shows good. I would not call an overall consensus of either no change or bad as good for Brexit.

[Mayhem]

But Labour, a Brexit party, dropping in favour of the Conservatives, a Brexit party shows that more than 80% of voters would still vote for a Brexit supporting party. If peoples desire to remain in the EU were that strong surely they would be voting for a remain party?

First past the post makes people vote against their interests more often than not.

I still maintain that a second referendum, when remainers at the polls are becoming rarer than hens teeth, is pointless. It is almost as though anyone prepared to vote for a remain party at a general election is gathered here on mmo-c.

Ah of course you do, because you confuse voting in a general election with voting in a referendum.

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No overall sector shows good. I would not call an overall consensus of either no change or bad as good for Brexit.

Brexit 2 years ago: Make things better for Britain!
Brexit now: Everything not bad means good!

[Deleted]

LAB voter split in latest YouGov Brexit tracker
Right to leave 21%
Wrong to leave 72%
DK 7%

Corybn completely ignoring his base.

Dribbles the who loss of the Tory majority at the last GE was voting vs a hard brexit.

[Pann]

I didn't say it was undemocratic.

Yes you did, you wrote "... the referendum was not binding so it wasn't even democratic to begin with." or did you think saying something was not democratic meant something else?