View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
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  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #9661
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    -snip-
    Peparing your very own Stap-in-the-back myth already?
    Will you take the same preparations to get "even", too? You could start by writing a book, it'd probably be of the same quality, even...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Under May's deal we will no longer be an EU member state, we will have no MEPs, we will not be part of the SM or CU, FOM will end and the ECJ will no longer have supremacy over UK laws. This is Brexit. The fact that this Brexit is not your vision of Brexit is unfortunate but that is is the risk when you vote for something that is not defined.
    I'd disagree, given Teleros' posts on this forum it would be very unfortunate if anything were according to his visions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    My point was rather broader than just focusing on the Good Friday Agreement though. Now, perhaps it'd mean altering that agreement or even (!) abandoning it, but again, I think the overall negotiations would have ended up different. That's all.
    So you do not actually have a clue what you think it they would have been like...
    Last edited by Noradin; 2018-12-06 at 09:30 AM.

  2. #9662
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    But. . . . you had a referendum for electoral reform, most did not bother to attend and you overwhelmingly voted against it. So people CAN hold the British people accountable for the electoral system, because they chose not to improve it.
    AS far as I understand it that referendum had severe issues: It was a choice between FPTP and "essentially FPTP but totally not the same, honest".

  3. #9663
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Even a slight improvement is an improvement. Why did they shoot it down? Did they expect they'd get a chance at something better? Excuse me while I laugh my ass off. Most did not even bother to vote.
    There was no "slight improvement" to be had, it was an obvious sham.
    No need to lend legimacy to a joke referendum by showing up to vote.

  4. #9664
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    But wouldn't it have made more sense to call a GE prior to sending out A50 notice to the EU if her intention was to sabotage brexit by losing the GE?
    Maybe, but that depends on what you think the EU would've done in the event of a new UK government asking to withdraw the A50 notice. My thinking is that they'd have been happy to stop it. "Ah, of course we're terribly sorry that you don't have a pro-Brexit government any more, UK citizens, but as your new one has asked us to cancel Article 50, we will of course be happy to do so in order to preserve the EU blah blah blah keep your rebate blah blah..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    Peparing your very own Stap-in-the-back myth already?
    Will you take the same preparations to get "even", too? You could start by writing a book, it'd probably be of the same quality, even...
    More like "cynically prepared to see more sabotaging of Brexit". Don't see what Jews or Teutonic imperialist-socialist screeds have to do with any of that though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    I'd disagree, given Teleros' posts on this forum it would be very unfortunate if anything were according to his visions.
    Such antisemitism... it saddens me. I had no idea you had that much bile in you for Jews - though I guess your two links quoted above should've clued me in. Sad to see...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    But. . . . you had a referendum for electoral reform, most did not bother to attend and you overwhelmingly voted against it. So people CAN hold the British people accountable for the electoral system, because they chose not to improve it.
    Some of us like the current system :P .

    This was the proposed new system BTW. Frankly the impression I get (and got) was that a lot of people simply didn't understand it very well, so sticking with what they knew is not surprising.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_U...ote_referendum
    Still not tired of winning.

  5. #9665
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    If losing votes to UKIP was a threat to just the Tories then why did Miliband feel the need to include the pledges "Reform the EU so it "works for Britain" and "Allow no further transfer of powers to Brussels without a referendum" in his 2015 GE campaign?
    Likely hoping to wean some voters from the Tories and/or UKIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    This option has never been available. The government was bound to carry out Brexit due to the fact that it had promised to fulfil the result of the referendum. If abandoning Brexit was truly an option then why do you think not one of 650 elected MPs have seriously suggested this in the last two years?
    Of course it is available, it's just not in their personal career interests to do so.

    Plus, you know, party line politics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  6. #9666
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Maybe, but that depends on what you think the EU would've done in the event of a new UK government asking to withdraw the A50 notice. My thinking is that they'd have been happy to stop it. "Ah, of course we're terribly sorry that you don't have a pro-Brexit government any more, UK citizens, but as your new one has asked us to cancel Article 50, we will of course be happy to do so in order to preserve the EU blah blah blah keep your rebate blah blah..."
    What do you mean by maybe? Even your example here would make more sense if the GE was prior to the A50 notice. I mean, you're just making it extremely complicated for no reason. That just makes no sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  7. #9667
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    More like "cynically prepared to see more sabotaging of Brexit". Don't see what Jews or Teutonic imperialist-socialist screeds have to do with any of that though.


    Such antisemitism... it saddens me. I had no idea you had that much bile in you for Jews - though I guess your two links quoted above should've clued me in. Sad to see...
    You are aware that this act is unlikely to work on anyone who has read more than two of your posts, aren't you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I see it as a slight improvement so that at least you can e.g. vote Lib Dem and then if your candidate doesn't get elected, your second preference in Labour can still help keep a Tory representative off the seat. It definitely is not proportional representation but it would be an improvement in that you can at least register your first preference and still tactically choose your second one.

    Am I misunderstanding the system? That's what AV is and what the discussion was earlier on was that some people were forced to vote tactically and not for their preferred party
    But that one was not up as a choice in the referendum, wasn't it?
    At least from what I got from discussions from family who live in the UK, but then it has been some time and I'm not that firm on the details anymore.

  8. #9668
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    What do you mean by maybe? Even your example here would make more sense if the GE was prior to the A50 notice. I mean, you're just making it extremely complicated for no reason. That just makes no sense.
    It does if you bring party politics into account. Remember, May's original (in this case, supposed) decision on why to call the GE was to strengthen her position in the negotiations. Doing it my way gets the Tories off the hook - "look guys we began the process but lost the GE, nothing more we can do" - whereas a GE before you invoke A50 doesn't, because the Tories would be rightly seen as jeopardising the result by risking a GE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    You are aware that this act is unlikely to work on anyone who has read more than two of your posts, aren't you?
    Hey, if you insist on seeing muh nazis under every bush and bed there's not much I can do to help you.
    Still not tired of winning.

  9. #9669
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    It does if you bring party politics into account. Remember, May's original (in this case, supposed) decision on why to call the GE was to strengthen her position in the negotiations. Doing it my way gets the Tories off the hook - "look guys we began the process but lost the GE, nothing more we can do" - whereas a GE before you invoke A50 doesn't, because the Tories would be rightly seen as jeopardising the result by risking a GE.
    But aren't you calling her jeopardising the result for donig just that?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  10. #9670
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Hey, if you insist on seeing muh nazis under every bush and bed there's not much I can do to help you.
    Not unter every one, I'm just seeing a conspiracy theory being peddled similar to the one that allowed them to gain a foothold.

  11. #9671
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    No, this is what AV is.
    I know what it is, but was that what was clearly described as one of the options in the referendum?

  12. #9672
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Thank you.

    I will see if I find my old notes on the issue (which is unlikely), otherwise I concede the point.

  13. #9673
    It's what makes the "We're getting back our sovereignty" arguments so hollow.
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Seriously guys, this forum would be a better place if everyone just stopped acknowledging Zenkai. It's just demeaning to everyone.

  14. #9674
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Even a slight improvement is an improvement. Why did they shoot it down? Did they expect they'd get a chance at something better? Excuse me while I laugh my ass off. Most did not even bother to vote.
    I voted for AV+, I've voted to keep the Tories out and I voted to Remain. I've done my part. /shrug

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I've rarely criticised the British population as a whole. You're glossing over what I'm actually saying. But I take your point. Drown in your self-pity. I'll strictly stick to the EU side from now on. I'm looking forward to the "arrogant European ass, not even trying to understand us" trope that'll eventually grow.
    Sorry for being snappy with you Slant but you knew the answer to the question before you asked it. Waxing poetic doesn't make you look humble.

  15. #9675
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    But aren't you calling her jeopardising the result for donig just that?
    It's a case of what people perceive. If you call a GE before A50 and lose to an anti-Brexit government, you'll be crucified for betraying Brexit. If you call a GE after A50 and lose to an anti-Brexit government, you won't get the blame when the anti-Brexit government cancels Brexit. If in either case you win however, you have to try and screw up Brexit whilst appearing to achieve it - hence Treasonous May's deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    Not unter every one, I'm just seeing a conspiracy theory being peddled similar to the one that allowed them to gain a foothold.
    Only a problem if it's not true .
    Still not tired of winning.

  16. #9676
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    It's a case of what people perceive. If you call a GE before A50 and lose to an anti-Brexit government, you'll be crucified for betraying Brexit. If you call a GE after A50 and lose to an anti-Brexit government, you won't get the blame when the anti-Brexit government cancels Brexit. If in either case you win however, you have to try and screw up Brexit whilst appearing to achieve it - hence Treasonous May's deal.
    Why the hell would you be crucified for betraying brexit when in a GE an anti-brexit government was elected? Will of the people much?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  17. #9677
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think it was very easy to tell people that nothing would change because on a parliamentary level, nothing would. With AV the first two parties would still get the lion's share of the votes. AV doesn't really allow for any proportionality and it is not a real solution to the electoral problems the UK and the US have. So it would be easy to tell people "Why change the system when it will not change seats around and just make things more complex? Complex things are in favour of the elites stealing your democracy!!!!"
    Well, first of all it prevents vote-splitting, which means more people will feel free to vote third party in the first place.

    Also preferential systems provide a kind of backup representation: let's say party A has 40% of the vote, party B has 45% of the vote and party C has 15%. But party C is much closer to party A, ie most of its voters pick party A as a second preference. Party A still wins but it's sure to remember it needed party C's preferences, so if party C gets pissed enough with party A they can threaten to tell their voters to swap to party B for second preference instead, and then party A has to adopt more of C's policies to placate them.

    In our system, you can choose to allocate your preferences yourself (ie you have to number all candidates sequentially, which can be a real pain in the lower house where there are buttloads of competing candidates) or simply vote for your first preference - in that case your preferences are automatically distributed according to that party's default preference list (which they publish and hand out to voters so everyone can see what they are). That allows these parties to do preference deals with other parties to negotiate their positions.

    Honestly nothing's perfect but it's just straight up better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  18. #9678
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    And that sucks But the country did get some level of electoral reform that could have improved things and the majority did not even bother to vote. Those who did, overwhelmingly voted against.
    I never said the British Electorate are beyond reproach. What I'm snapping at is Slant essentially humble bragging and waxing poetic about how different things might be if we didn't vote tactically. Tactical Voting isn't even that common (at least pre 2017) where it was around 10% of the vote, in 2017 it was 20% (estimated 6.5 mill) and if we hadn't then we would have had a Conservative majority in the commons.

    Figures taken from https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7903961.html if you fancy a read.

  19. #9679
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    Sorry for being snappy with you Slant but you knew the answer to the question before you asked it. Waxing poetic doesn't make you look humble.
    I'm not humble. But I'm also not very patient. I'm done talking with you lot about how you do things internally. It's too painful to watch, so I'll lean back and enjoy the show instead. I know I'll come out of this just alright. Watch me give zero fucks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    I never said the British Electorate are beyond reproach. What I'm snapping at is Slant essentially humble bragging and waxing poetic about how different things might be if we didn't vote tactically. Tactical Voting isn't even that common (at least pre 2017) where it was around 10% of the vote, in 2017 it was 20% (estimated 6.5 mill) and if we hadn't then we would have had a Conservative majority in the commons.

    Figures taken from https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7903961.html if you fancy a read.
    Ah, see... when I said "I'm wondering" this is the type of informative post that would have been an appropriate response. If we can't ask you guys questions without you snapping like that, well... you're on your own anyway, but you'll be more on your own. :P
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  20. #9680
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I'm not humble. But I'm also not very patient. I'm done talking with you lot about how you do things internally. It's too painful to watch, so I'll lean back and enjoy the show instead. I know I'll come out of this just alright. Watch me give zero fucks.

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    Ah, see... when I said "I'm wondering" this is the type of informative post that would have been an appropriate response. If we can't ask you guys questions without you snapping like that, well... you're on your own anyway, but you'll be more on your own. :P
    I am genuinely sorry for snapping at you Slant, Nigel has his gin whilst I have my rum. You're a bright guy and I know you know or could intuit why people would vote tactically in FPTP system so the question looked a little disengenuous. However if you were asking for facts and figures then yeah, alright then that article I linked seems to have some interesting stuff in there if you haven't read it already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I did mention all this earlier, I am just thinking how the campaign against AV might have been like.

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    Yeah this is just tragic. In all honesty even 10% seems horrible. I just felt that it needed to be mentioned that the UK did have a chance to at least improve their electoral system and most did not even care. Ultimately it feels like most people there (and in many other countries) simply don't care about their democratic duties (because voting is a duty, not a right).
    It's a shit system and I don't think anyone rational will tell you otherwise. At the end of the day you're dealing with a population who's attitude to Brexit right now is "get on with it!", not because of any particular will but born out of being bored of hearing about Brexit. It's safe to say we don't really do democracy very well.

    Which, when I think about it explains why FPTP has been popular in the past when it was creating large majorities, the populace just had to vote once every 4-5 years and could then just forget about politics altogether.

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