View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #9861
    Quote Originally Posted by sefrimutro View Post
    If only politics worked as they tell you in high school...
    Reasoning.
    Convincing your opponents.
    :')

    This forum is an outlet for propaganda of every nature. It's, generally, not about seducing the other, but about rallying your brethren.
    Brexit is culturally driven by national sentiment. It's efficient for the average person to exploit that into its darkest corners of hatred for the other. And it is efficient for the politician to fuel that through fear: fear the consequences, fear your fellow Brit, fear the brexiteer.

    Should it be this way?. I don't think so.
    But (and this is just my short experience in this world) simply pointing it out doesn't break the cycle.

    Also, I dunno about you. But I would be angry at your political class.
    Yeah, okay. I think you might have missed the point.


    Quote Originally Posted by sefrimutro View Post
    Oh, no. You really should not address that source of inanity. Not the poster, nor the follow up.
    But, if you're so keen on picking low hanging fruit, pick on the rotten bits and cut the possibility of a follow up.
    I really have no idea what you're saying here, I get the impression that it was meant to be something profound but something has been lost somewhere.

  2. #9862
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I get the impression
    Perception.
    Yeah... we've been over this.
    Have a nice evening =).

  3. #9863
    Is anyone watching The Mash Report? I think Geoff Norcott (a leave supporter) has come up with a really good point regarding the remain campaign; he said that remain should drop the project fear rhetoric that we will all be poorer by leaving and concentrate on the message that we will richer for remaining. Such a simple but brilliant suggestion.

  4. #9864
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    It does? Really? I suggest you either link some evidence for your accusation or apologise!
    So you want me to link evidence of no response from you?

    I, uhm, I don't, how?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  5. #9865
    The lack of will to point out the benefits of EU membership and maybe spin a narrative of hope and opportunity rather than fear and doom seems to have been the bane of the Remain campaign.

    I recall seeing an interview with - I think it was Blair's EU minister or something - where it was pointed out that UK politicians generally spoke warmly of the EU when they were outside the UK, but didn't dare to inside the the country for fear of offending the voters. He even mentioned having written an EU positive article only to have it instantly spiked by Campbell.

  6. #9866
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    It's nearly two and half years since the referendum surely the argument should have moved on from you guys are stupid?
    It would... but the political leader you decided to implement keeps surprising us every day with her silliness. In other words, if you do something stupid, I'd be quite the arse for dangling it over your head 2 years later. But if you keep on doing stupid things, saying stupid things and basically acting like a fool... that's on you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sefrimutro View Post
    In the same environment that produced the earlier accusation of concern-trolling-appearances, I implied that some people are saying things that they should really not. I share your frustration, but venting about it is also useless noise.
    Face it, banter across borders is a prominent (though not exclusive) feature of European cultures. I prefer to report what I feel crosses the line of acceptability rather than engage it.
    I mean... the obvious elephant in the room... British going on and on about WW2. @Pann, let's make a deal, you make your guys stop dissing Germany for WW2, and we'll stop having a laugh at your expensive over this silliness. Deal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    And as I have pointed out wishing people from the UK become victims of Irish terrorism or that they are made to suffer as a consequence of Brexit goes far beyond what is reasonable.

    I have no problem with banter but it's been two years and it's really tedious still reading that Brexit vote was stupid - we know! - let's move on and have an actual discussion about what is happening now.
    I've yet to read anyone wishing people from the UK becoming victims of Northern Irish terrorism. I personally hope Dribbles gets to live his personal dream, preferably in the gutter, where he belongs... but that's really just him on a personal level. As for everyone else? If you've not read the countless people from mainland Europe that have expressed sympathies, compassion and regret at this decision, you clearly haven't read carefully enough. We're about as ticked off about this thing as you are. Our problem, however, is that we can't do anything about it.

    Imagine a car driving towards a cliff at 30kph and us standing next to it yelling you to get the hell out and you're going "Yeah, I know it was a bad idea to drive into this direction, but really, what can you do?"

    Well, you could stop the car. Just as a thought. That's why we keep yelling at you. Just end it. No harm done. EU member states have all but explicitely said they'd bury this matter, all you have to do is revoke Art 50 and we'll forget about it. See, this is why making sure that people understand the silliness is actually important. You can still revert this. You have 4 months and change left to just... do it. Ignore anything that happened until then in the negotiations. You could turn this embarassment around and the worst we can say is "Oh yeah, those Brits... fucking attention whores got us again, well played."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Is anyone watching The Mash Report? I think Geoff Norcott (a leave supporter) has come up with a really good point regarding the remain campaign; he said that remain should drop the project fear rhetoric that we will all be poorer by leaving and concentrate on the message that we will richer for remaining. Such a simple but brilliant suggestion.
    Neatly implying still that leave is really just a hysterical bunch of fearmongers. Yes, let's pretend you will be reacher by remaining. Suddenly we're talking about potentials and people asking "How much richer?" and you coming up with silly numbers that you make up on the spot.

    Unlike the current tactic, you know... spreading the truth about what is actually happening right the fuck now, nevermind in 4 months. Please, let's not discuss that, it's way too negative and depressing. Because that'll avert the problems.

    Jaguar's electric vehicles? Not being built in the UK. The Mini electric vehicles? Not built in the UK. Those are direct consequences of Brexit. How can you come into this thread and complain about nation bashing when you bash the Remainers with "project fear" propaganda? You're really no better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gibblewink View Post
    The lack of will to point out the benefits of EU membership and maybe spin a narrative of hope and opportunity rather than fear and doom seems to have been the bane of the Remain campaign.

    I recall seeing an interview with - I think it was Blair's EU minister or something - where it was pointed out that UK politicians generally spoke warmly of the EU when they were outside the UK, but didn't dare to inside the the country for fear of offending the voters. He even mentioned having written an EU positive article only to have it instantly spiked by Campbell.
    And this pisses me off. @Pann this tiptoeing around your sensible emotions is bullshit. Oh no, the poor British soul can't bear it when faced with harsh realities. Let's pretend everything's fine and unicorns are farting rainbows that glitter. Hold your politicians accountable for lying to you. Otherwise you might have the harshest of wake up calls when the dream of "everything will be alright" crumbles.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  7. #9867
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Is anyone watching The Mash Report? I think Geoff Norcott (a leave supporter) has come up with a really good point regarding the remain campaign; he said that remain should drop the project fear rhetoric that we will all be poorer by leaving and concentrate on the message that we will richer for remaining. Such a simple but brilliant suggestion.
    Kinda difficult when every argument about Brexit inevitably devolves into an argument about immigration, which has nothing to do with the EU.

  8. #9868
    I think undoing decades of conditioning of the British people by the yellow press is a tall order. While I always favor hope in political messaging, there was no receptive crowd to listen to it.
    And sadly I doubt a rational confrontational style, taking the inane suggestions of Leave and dissecting them or continuously exposing the lies against the EU and how all the things people blame the EU for are largely the fault of their local government and to a lesser extent their MEPs would work; people are immune to facts.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  9. #9869
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Is anyone watching The Mash Report? I think Geoff Norcott (a leave supporter) has come up with a really good point regarding the remain campaign; he said that remain should drop the project fear rhetoric that we will all be poorer by leaving and concentrate on the message that we will richer for remaining. Such a simple but brilliant suggestion.
    As it pertains to this thread you'll be hard pressed to find posters thinking the remain campaign was well developed. And not just in the so called "project fear", but on their failure to capitalize on the key concessions that Cameron negotiated.
    This reeks of Trumpism, and their insistence to bring up Clinton at every opportunity they get. It's very transparent whataboutism.
    Last edited by mmoc003aca7d8e; 2018-11-24 at 08:31 AM.

  10. #9870
    Quote Originally Posted by Helden View Post
    Kinda difficult when every argument about Brexit inevitably devolves into an argument about immigration, which has nothing to do with the EU.
    I think you're right that immigration was a driver or at least an important reason for many people who voted leave but I must say that is not my experience that every argument about Brexit devolves into an argument about immigration and I have found that when it does it is possible to make a positive argument for immigration.

  11. #9871
    Quote Originally Posted by sefrimutro View Post
    but on their failure to capitalize on the key concessions that Cameron negotiated.
    Honestly the only one who could have effectively done that was Cameron himself
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  12. #9872
    Deleted
    Rep farming in wow made me miss this yesterday:
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Minister of Spain
    After my conversation with Theresa May, our positions remain far away. My Government will always defend the interests of Spain. If there are no changes, we will veto Brexit.
    This is the issue of Gibraltar, which was raised a few days ago

    https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/11/22...09_242575.html
    Quote Originally Posted by El País
    This week both the Spanish prime minister, Pedro Sánchez, and the country’s foreign minister, Josep Borrell, made clear they would not sign off on the UK’s draft withdrawal agreement on Sunday if Article 184 within the text was not modified to make clear that negotiations on the future of the EU-UK relationship would not include Gibraltar. Instead, Madrid wants separate, bilateral negotiations on Gibraltar after Brexit, covering issues such as the price of tobacco products, the fate of cross-border workers, environmental concerns and cooperation on police and border control issues. Madrid and London this week reached preliminary agreements on these points, set out in four memorandums of understanding (MoUs) and a tax deal.

    European Commission sources said on Thursday that the issue of Gibraltar, as well as others that have been raised by EU member states, would be resolved with resolutions appended to the main document. For now, the Political Declaration has also eliminated any direct reference to Article 184.
    Note that the agreement on withdrawal only requires qualified majority. So this is more of an affront to tomorrow's summit, which could be cancelled should this not be solved.
    I suspect not much will come out of this: it's a question of guaranteeing the EU will meet Spanish demands on separating the Rock from any future trade agreement, all the while not triggering any question of sovereignty, which the UK is, obviously, prepared to rebuke.

    So... diplomacy should have it covered. But I think this minor annoyance exemplifies how these processes are hugely complex. The insistence that a future trade agreement is easy peasy, and straightforward falls flat when a simple territorial dispute (which abound in Europe) can make or break it so easily.

  13. #9873
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by sefrimutro View Post
    This forum is an outlet for propaganda of every nature. It's, generally, not about seducing the other, but about rallying your brethren.
    You are indeed right. The only thing that I would truly love to know is, who are your brethren?

  14. #9874
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Prabog View Post
    You are indeed right. The only thing that I would truly love to know is, who are your brethren?
    I would like to know that too. Allegiances are expensive to maintain.

  15. #9875
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by sefrimutro View Post
    Allegiances are expensive to maintain.
    If you can not ride two horses at once, you should not be in the circus.

  16. #9876
    Quote Originally Posted by Prabog View Post
    If you can not ride two horses at once, you should not be in the circus.
    That's clever and I will steal it.

  17. #9877
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Mekh View Post
    That's clever and I will steal it.
    It is a known phrase.

  18. #9878
    Quote Originally Posted by Prabog View Post
    It is a known phrase.
    Google has a bunch of hits, but all I can find on the first number of pages is about the same song's lyrics.

  19. #9879
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Mekh View Post
    Google has a bunch of hits, but all I can find on the first number of pages is about the same song's lyrics.
    It was originally used in politics.

  20. #9880
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    That makes no sense whatsoever. Whatever Dribbles posts is solely Dribbles' responsibility and nothing to do with me or anyone else in this thread.
    Then why is anyone "bashing" the UK your responsibility in any sense unless you yourself do the bashing.
    Take your own advice, hypocrite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Why is complaining about the poor quality in this thread useless noise? We are all participants and as such we should be able to raise our game.
    Because the way you do it lowers the quality of posts in this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prabog View Post
    It was originally used in politics.
    In which language and by whom?
    Last edited by Noradin; 2018-11-24 at 12:26 PM. Reason: spelling

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