The Brexit aftermath thread

[Mayhem]

I mean your Chancellor for the Exchequer said the exact same thing earlier this year. This is not a threat, it's a fact. I guess Brexit means Brexit is a threat to the UK then, because this is one of the many facts of a hard Brexit.
Stop threatening yourself dribbles

Brexiteers still surprised about the fact that actions have consequences.

[Pann]

There is a difference between "they started it" and "it was their choice". The UK chose to go ahead with Brexit knowing all of this. The GFA is not exactly some obscure agreement no one ever heard of. This whole conundrum was well known and readily available, yet a majority of Brits decided to leave anyway, figuring that this issue was either secondary or would be resolved by the EU backing down. And the UK government decided to go start the process without such a technology existing.

As such, I believe that it should be the UK that has to come up with a solution for this other than 'we get all we want, the EU compromises its core values'.

And? No-one is denying that it was the UK's choice.

The UK has come up with a solution it is now up to the EU to decide whether or not this is acceptable to them or if not whether there are ways to make it acceptable. If no way can be found then the UK and EU must ensure that Ireland suffers minimal disruption and that all efforts are made to preserve the peace.

[Deleted]

http://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-t...37889-Jul2018/

The only ones interpreting it in this manner seem to be the Express, Sun, Mirror and Breitbart. Oh and the Daily Mail how could I forget that paragon of journalism.

Some official: If you do X, obviously Y will happen.
Propaganda press: The EU threatens with Y.
dribbs: it's habbening
flops: the EU must fix this, for it is their fault
this thread: this is idiocy
pann: how dare you blame us!?
nigel: >laments the state of affairs
slant: toldyouso


how many times have we gone through this cycle?.

[dribbles]

Brexiteers still surprised about the fact that actions have consequences.

Don't you feel sorry for the Irish? The only place they will be able to go on holiday is Lanzarote.

[Pann]

Breaking the commitment to incorporate the ECHR into law, since the ECHR is a living document and thus continues to be updated and interpreted to this day.
It endangers the UK's commitment to avoid security installations.

That doesn't answer my question but we both know you can't. The ECHR has been incorporated into Northern Ireland law and it is totally separate from the EU.

[Mayhem]

Don't you feel sorry for the Irish? The only place they will be able to go on holiday is Lanzarote.

I do, I do feel sorry that they are the ones that are hit the hardest by the shit you're producing. I'm sure that the 26 will help ROI in every way possible to cope with the nonsense you're putting them through.

[Pann]

How will both governments have failed to honour their commitments when one is trying to hold the other hostage over it?

UK: We're going to do something that will break the GFA.

Also UK: Let's come to an agreement that honours the GFA somehow still.

Everyone else: wtf how?!

Both governments signed up to the Belfast Accord, both are equally responsible for upholding it.

Brexit does not break the GFA.

[dribbles]

You know what the Irish should do? They should have a referendum! I mean the UK is all about those right?

Why limit it to just Ireland?

[Mayhem]

Both governments signed up to the Belfast Accord, both are equally responsible for upholding it.

Brexit does not break the GFA.

The Brexit we're talking about now does.

[Pann]

The Brexit we're talking about now does.

The Brexit we're talking about now is subject to negotiation between the EU and the UK both parties have it within their power to reach an agreement where the GFA remains intact. If the GFA is broken then it will as a result of the failure of these negotiations.

[Gibblewink]

Any version of Brexit put forward so far by the Tories does in fact break GFA. They've then cooked up some madmans brew that would only require the EU to break its core systems in oreder to fix a problem that is entirely the UKs making. The EU altering its stance might have had a tiny point of merit if it wasn't for the little detail that the UK can just bloody well fix their own mess and stay in the CU. We're not responsible for making good on the Leave campaigns insane promises.

[Mayhem]

The Brexit we're talking about now is subject to negotiation between the EU and the UK both parties have it within their power to reach an agreement where the GFA remains intact. If the GFA is broken then it will as a result of the failure of these negotiations.

So you agree that it does? Well, that's a start.

The Brexit we're talking about now is breaking the GFA and somehow the other side is equally responsible for breaking it? That's not negotiating, that's extortion.

[Pann]

The EU never entered the GFA, it's not party to it. Ireland is. Ireland CAN veto any agreement that would break the GFA but it cannot FORCE an agreement that would uphold it; it's not within its power. Effectively you are demanding that Ireland exits the EU so they can honor an agreement they made with the UK later than their accession to the EU.

This kind of strawman is getting really tedious! The EU and the UK have the power to broker a deal that keeps the GFA intact as it stands there are issues which both sides see as important that stand in the way. It may well be that these issues are insurmountable and other solutions need to be found.

I nor the UK are demanding that Eire leave the EU please take this bollocks elsewhere!

[dribbles]

Oh you want one for Scotland too?
The thing is, NI can join the RoI at any moment if they both have referendums and decide so. It wouldn't likely happen now, but a few years down the line, after a hard Brexit, borders between the countries and the UK as typical ignoring NI economically, who knows. And unlike Scotland that would have to join the EU as a new member if they split from the UK, NI would be joining automatically as part of the RoI if that was to ever happen.

Mind you I do not think this is ideal and would most likely cause violence. But if things go bad financially for both places when they are apart, why should they not join together again?

Actually I was thinking of Sweden who go to the polls in a couple of weeks with their election. You know that most liberal country everyone thinks of as so laid back almost laissez faire in their attitude to everything. I'm wondering if the EU will take any blame for their probable election result and whether a Swexit post election results in the next domino of the failing EU.

But that's drifting off topic...

[Pann]

So you agree that it does? Well, that's a start.

The Brexit we're talking about now is breaking the GFA and somehow the other side is equally responsible for breaking it? That's not negotiating, that's extortion.

I agree that what does what? Your first line is utter nonsense! Why do you bother?

Yes, this is not (or at least it shouldn't be) a difficult concept to grasp, I've already explained it to you simple terms the post you replied to.

[Mayhem]

I agree that what does what? Your first line is utter nonsense! Why do you bother?

Yes, this is not (or at least it shouldn't be) a difficult concept to grasp, I've already explained it to you simple terms the post you replied to.

That the current Brexit that is proposed is breaking the GFA. (Hard Brexit, if you can't follow)

So you agree that it is extortion? We're making great progress here.

I'm still not sure how you can view this as both sides are equally responsible but that's probably because I'm not much of a nationalist.

[Pann]

That the current Brexit that is proposed is breaking the GFA. (Hard Brexit, if you can't follow)

So you agree that it is extortion? We're making great progress here.

I'm still not sure how you can view this as both sides are equally responsible but that's probably because I'm not much of a nationalist.

A hard Brexit is not being proposed, both sides are trying to avoid a hard Brexit. How can you post so much in a thread and know so little about what is going on?

No, I don't! This has to be act.

Well you seem to believe that I've agreed with your idiotic conclusion about extortion so that really does not come as a surprise.

[Slant]

Whilst the cause of the problem is 100% of UK making how it is resolved, or not, is of joint UK and EU responsibility. Pointing the finger and moaning he started it is the argument of five year olds not leaders of nations.

The EU did not offer a working solution to the Irish border problem, it offered a solution that protected its interests (which is fair enough) however that solution did not respect the sovereignty of the UK (which given the important that sovereignty played in the Brexit vote was never going to be acceptable to the UK) nor did the EU solution guarantee that there would not be a return to violence on the island of Ireland.

The fact of the matter is that the EU's border needs cannot be met whilst keeping the Good Friday Agreement intact. It is up to both the UK and EU to decide whether exceptions can be made in order to preserve the GFA or if they cannot accept that the Belfast Accord can no longer be honoured and work towards ensuring the safety of British and EU citizens.

The finger pointing originated in the UK, mind you. I do not see you starting to claim the EU is pointing fingers at the EU in response to the UK pointing fingers a valid argument or defense. We won't be having this blackmail, I hope. And in the end, the EU is more than happy to accomodate any solution that prevents a hard border. This is in fact a core issue the EU would like to resolve sensibly. That is the whole reason why you lot are even still in the negotiations instead of being frozen out for a lack of a proper negotiation position or a plan.

The EU did offer working solutions: Stay in the EU, accept the Norway model... any variation of those. The EU saw this problem as soon as the referendum happened, perhaps even earlier. They warned you about this. I myself have also pointed this out fairly early in the process. The general response was either "It's no problem" or "You fix it!" or, amusingly, "We'll get what we want, and we'll make you pay for it, too!"

You have summarized it correctly, the integrity of the EU border, protecting the interests of close to 200 million citizens, cannot be met if you want to keep GFA intact, protecting the interests of 1.2 million or so people in Northern Ireland and a bit shy of 5 million in RoI.

You tell me now which one the EU is going to adhere to. The EU won't redefine centuries of understanding on how nations and borders work just because the UK threw a tantrum. And that's what this is. An irrational, emotional and above all, unconsidered tantrum. continental Europe has not been affected by the Troubles. So, no... this isn't about European security. This is exclusively a British problem. And I support the EU if they decide to accept the hit and let the UK learn the hard way about consequences and rules.

There is no "solution" that the EU can work out. There just isn't. No, legal trickery and the UK claiming unicorns will solve this is not good enough. No, we do not trust the UK to do our customs for us. No, we do not trust them to be honest. That's not how nations work. A bullshit dream of "mechanisms" isn't going to solve this either. The time for lofty and vague obfuscation is over. We need practical solutions with detailed and practical guidelines on how the people at the border are supposed to actually handle the situation. Not "mechanisms" that May introduced, having no clue what those mechanisms are going to be.

- - - Updated - - -

the UK has put forth ideas consistently, all shot down because they break - in 1 way or several - the eu core values. that's completely understandable, if UK gets preferential treatment it will probably lead to the downfall of the eu. now however the eu has explicitly told ireland that they are protected from a hard border, and so we, the UK, are using this as leverage to get what we want. no deal is a disaster economically for both the UK and eu, and yes it's more of a disaster for the UK i accept that.

basically the eu has a question to answer now: does it put it's economy and the question of ireland ahead of protecting the eu's core values or not. if the eu wants to protect it's core values (and they're certainly allowed to do that) the result will be no deal, a hard brexit, where ireland suffers the consequences of a hard border and both the UK*/eu face economic peril. considering ireland has a veto, i could forsee ireland being very angry at the eu for 'betraying' them, and veto-ing so many of the important legislation the eu hopes to pass/enact without the UK stopping it.

*the UK is worse off compared to the eu in the event of no deal.

A lot of blabla and no new ideas.

[Mayhem]

A hard Brexit is not being proposed, both sides are trying to avoid a hard Brexit.

If we're not talking about a hard Brexit right now then all this talk is useless because there will be no border.

[Pann]

Until those imaginary technical solutions are created, May's white paper would require, at least during the period of transition, a hard border in Ireland.

Not necessarily but that is for the EU and UK to decide.