The Brexit aftermath thread

[Forogil]

Oh boy here we go comparing the total amount of sick pay, holiday days, maternity leave, of the UK - with the minimum required in the EU, of which a lot of countries are way above the UK. Because it differs a lot among European countries, but it shouldn't be under the minimum set by the EU - shocking, I know.

And even those numbers are lies.

He claims that EU has 4 weeks and the uk has 5 weeks of holiday pay.

What he fails to mention is that EU as a minimum has 4 weeks of 7 days giving 28 days.
The uk has 5 (actually 5.6) weeks of 5 days giving 28 days.

You can check that the calculator at https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitleme...pay-the-basics gives that as result.

[Crispin]

No, it's not. Dribbles' post specifically said "...the UK has far higher standards than the EU for workers rights in most areas it's good that the level playing field will mean the EU has to raise its game to match ours." to which you replied "Are you serious lol? You’ll play by EU rules kid, be happy for it."

There is absolutely no mention of goods in that or the subsequent posts until I replied to you. If you had meant something about goods - which no-one mentioned - then why only mention them when you've been caught out?

No-one has claimed otherwise.

The only person here moving goal posts is you but as I said there's no need to worry as long as your post is vaguely anti-UK and/or insulting Dribbles then no-one cares so there's no need to get all defensive and lie about your nonsense.

Dribbles implied that the EU had to adjust to UK standards, which they do not, since they are matched or higher in most countries. The goods were the easier way to explain it to him and you, since he didnt get the actual point the first time around, and neither did you.

Get it now?

And anti-dribbles stupidity =/= anti uk

[LeGin Tufnel]

I think their point was that the UK is for all intents and purposes now ruled by the EU and thus out of the clutches of the current batch of fucktards that we keep voting in.

Obviously I've not read it, no one is offering a detailed TLDR atm but it's looking like a marketable BINO deal. The EU took our lunch money but it's letting BoJo say that we chose to donate it to the EU or we left it at home or the dog ate it or whatever the fuck they can sell to Express readers.

I was responding to multiple posts of theirs without quoting them all. Specifically, one about the centre left not wanting to “ratify” / “accept” the result of the ref. I didn’t make it clear.

My opinion is that, no, this isn’t BINO. Barriers to trade and the free movement of people? Erection of borders? Withdrawal from EU institutions? As a remainer, I see little to celebrate. Burner does because he’s a command economy Bennite. Fair enough. But if burner and Dribs are both happy. Where does that leave the rest of us?

[Pann]

Dribbles implied that the EU had to adjust to UK standards, which they do not, since they are matched or higher in most countries. The goods were the easier way to explain it to him and you, since he didnt get the actual point the first time around, and neither did you.

Get it now?

And anti-dribbles stupidity =/= anti uk

You've changed your argument again.

The rebalancing clause(s) work both ways so if EU standards were judged to give the EU an unfair competitive advantage then the EU would either face tariffs or have to raise their standards and vice versa.

Goods had nothing to do with what was being talked about and does not fit in what you claimed. Seriously you are trying to say that you were correct despite being blatantly wrong all because you decided to talk about something completely different and not tell anyone else what you were talking about. Have a think about absolutely ridiculous that is!

But to go back to your claim - that you're now trying to walk back - in order to sell goods into the EU market any nation will have to meet EU standards related to those goods this does not mean - as you seem to think - that the EU is in charge of that nation's regulations. As evidenced by many companies selling goods into the EU market despite taking advantage of cheap labour in countries where labour rules fall far short of those in place within the EU.

When in a hole it is advisable to stop digging not get out the JCB.

I didn't say that it did.

[Mayhem]

And even those numbers are lies.

He claims that EU has 4 weeks and the uk has 5 weeks of holiday pay.

What he fails to mention is that EU as a minimum has 4 weeks of 7 days giving 28 days.
The uk has 5 (actually 5.6) weeks of 5 days giving 28 days.

You can check that the calculator at https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitleme...pay-the-basics gives that as result.

Austria stands at a minimum of 38 days. 25 from work plus 13 paid public holidays.

[Crispin]

You've changed your argument again.

The rebalancing clause(s) work both ways so if EU standards were judged to give the EU an unfair competitive advantage then the EU would either face tariffs or have to raise their standards and vice versa.

Goods had nothing to do with what was being talked about and does not fit in what you claimed. Seriously you are trying to say that you were correct despite being blatantly wrong all because you decided to talk about something completely different and not tell anyone else what you were talking about. Have a think about absolutely ridiculous that is!

But to go back to your claim - that you're now trying to walk back - in order to sell goods into the EU market any nation will have to meet EU standards related to those goods this does not mean - as you seem to think - that the EU is in charge of that nation's regulations. As evidenced by many companies selling goods into the EU market despite taking advantage of cheap labour in countries where labour rules fall far short of those in place within the EU.

When in a hole it is advisable to stop digging not get out the JCB.

I didn't say that it did.

It’s cute that you somehow think that you need to tell me what my point was. Dissapointed to see that you still argue with no one, since you always follow the path that Acidbaron also pointed out.

Forgive me, if I’m not getting going to bother with you misunderstanding, or telling me what they really meant, so you can argue against a point never made.

And quite frankly it’s still not hard to understand my point, but I realise that it exposes your “brexit hell yeah!” vision. Tough titty

[Pann]

It’s cute that you somehow think that you need to tell me what my point was. Dissapointed to see that you still argue with no one, since you always follow the path that Acidbaron also pointed out.

Forgive me, if I’m not getting going to bother with you misunderstanding, or telling me what they really meant, so you can argue against a point never made.

And quite frankly it’s still not hard to understand my point, but I realise that it exposes your “brexit hell yeah!” vision. Tough titty

I don't need to tell you or anyone anything - it's there for all to see, you even repeated it in case anyone missed it the first time. Oh, c'mon don't put yourself down like that...

I understood your point - it was and still is nonsense. I also understand that for some bizarre reason you keep trying to claim that you said something else... just let it go. The more you deny saying what you said the more you draw attention it and the more foolish you look.

But just so we're clear you realise that you were wrong when you wrote "You’ll play by EU rules kid, be happy for it."?

My "Brexit hell yeah"? Well ok then... I forgot that if you disagree with the xenophobic bollocks posted in this thread that means that you must support Brexit.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

The full text of the agreement plus anciliary texts (civil nuclear strategy, information security, joint declarations) have been published on the EC website: https://ec.europa.eu/info/european-u...t-agreement_en

[dribbles]

I was responding to multiple posts of theirs without quoting them all. Specifically, one about the centre left not wanting to “ratify” / “accept” the result of the ref. I didn’t make it clear.

My opinion is that, no, this isn’t BINO. Barriers to trade and the free movement of people? Erection of borders? Withdrawal from EU institutions? As a remainer, I see little to celebrate. Burner does because he’s a command economy Bennite. Fair enough. But if burner and Dribs are both happy. Where does that leave the rest of us?

Moderate caring Conservatives like me are content wih it. Burner and the Bennite Corbynistas, Sir loadsamoney Keir and the Labour center will support it and now the Tory ERG are onboard...

Hardline Brexiteers on brink of BACKING EU trade deal as Boris ‘achieved the unachievable’ A senior source in the powerful ERG said that while the deal is not perfect it is still “pretty good” and should get the group’s backing.

The only place you can find those rare lesser spotted remainers who don't like the deal appear to be on this forum. Remember when as a moderate I called them out on their project fear "It can't be done" doom and gloom nonsense? Well it has been done, bring on the brexit sunny uplands.

Well done Boris.

[jonnysensible]

guess it was inevitable, the best way to do a deal was just to give the EU everything that they wanted and they did!

[sircaw]

I hate to say it Pann but when will you ever learn, so many people on here are not here for honest debate. Their agenda is to make sure Britain looks bad no matter what the deal outcome was.

If Britain doesn't get a deal they will be ruined.
If Britain gets a deal, err they are ruined, it's not the correct type of deal.
There were compromises on both sides, err the EU came out 5000% better, the UK is ruined.

there is always something here, when do you ever hear anything negative discussed about the Eu, this place is a one-way negative wrecking ball, with very few people actually trying to be honest.

I left these forums like six _ months ago, came back the other night, pretty happy after seeing we finally got a deal, and guess what it's the same shit with the same usual suspects hating on.

I won't even respond to them anymore it's pointless.

Bla bla bla.

[Forogil]

Austria stands at a minimum of 38 days. 25 from work plus 13 paid public holidays.

Yes, many (or most) EU-countries have more than the minimum; and in some countries it also depend on your age.

The EU-minimum is 28 days, same as in the uk, and there might be a few EU-countries in addition to the uk having that.

However, apart from that blatant lie about uk being above the EU-minimum; there's also a complete misunderstanding of what a level playfield means.

Just using the chapter heading give a clear description: Non-regression from levels of protection for Labor and social standards; it's not about having the same rules in the future in these areas, but about not sliding back - and actually implementing the current rules (as previously noted the uk has sometimes failed to do that).

[farsas]

IDD with the sentiment but I think you're probably wrong. This administration will test to the limits the patience of the EU and no doubt we'll be in conflict in perpetuity.

Your other stuff about centre left folk disliking this because it "ratifies the Brexit result" or whatever it was.


Positives:

- NI remains in the single market, customs union and subject to ECJ so as to avoid bloodshed. There’s something to worry about here? Do I give a fuck about Arlene Foster and her band of merry fucktards? No. Best possible outcome. Why are you so bothered by NI and Gibraltar now? Historically (if you go back beyond 1713) there is zero reason for the UK to have any sort of valid territorial claim to Gibraltar. WTF are you talking about? When the Sun dies in 5 bn years time do you think a single fuck will be given about Gibraltar? Or the people who died fighting for it? The Vandals, Visigoths, Berbers, Moors, Nasrids, Marinids, etc. You’re suddenly a unionist? Where the fuck did that come from?

I'm not a unionist I lived for four years in Northern Ireland and joined the SDLP.

The point was that from a conservative perspective all this stuff is totemic. I'm very happy personally NI has achieved de facto independence from the UK, that was always something the far left wanted. I know/care less about Gibraltar except that tories will hate losing it.

Level playing field. As above: the Tories will stretch or break the rules to suit their funders' goals

Probably, but that is much better than them having total control of the rules.

This is a much better deal than remainers could possibly have hoped for at this stage. Unless of course they retain the fantasy that the conservative party acts in the interest of the British people. Celebrate! Be Happy! This could have been an economic apocalypse. The UK government's incompetence and stupidity will have MUCH less impact on ordinary people.

[farsas]

IDD with the sentiment but I think you're probably wrong. This administration will test to the limits the patience of the EU and no doubt we'll be in conflict in perpetuity.

Your other stuff about centre left folk disliking this because it "ratifies the Brexit result" or whatever it was.


Positives:

- NI remains in the single market, customs union and subject to ECJ so as to avoid bloodshed. There’s something to worry about here? Do I give a fuck about Arlene Foster and her band of merry fucktards? No. Best possible outcome. Why are you so bothered by NI and Gibraltar now? Historically (if you go back beyond 1713) there is zero reason for the UK to have any sort of valid territorial claim to Gibraltar. WTF are you talking about? When the Sun dies in 5 bn years time do you think a single fuck will be given about Gibraltar? Or the people who died fighting for it? The Vandals, Visigoths, Berbers, Moors, Nasrids, Marinids, etc. You’re suddenly a unionist? Where the fuck did that come from?

I'm not a unionist I lived for four years in Northern Ireland and joined the SDLP.

The point was that from a conservative perspective all this stuff is totemic. I'm very happy personally NI has achieved de facto independence from the UK, that was always something the far left wanted. I know/care less about Gibraltar except that tories will hate losing it.

Level playing field. As above: the Tories will stretch or break the rules to suit their funders' goals

Probably, but that is much better than them having total control of the rules.

This is a much better deal than remainers could possibly have hoped for at this stage. Unless of course they retain the fantasy that the conservative party acts in the interest of the British people. Celebrate! Be Happy! This could have been an economic apocalypse. The UK government's incompetence and stupidity will have MUCH less impact on ordinary people.

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- Services. Have been utterly screwed. I share your distaste for elements of the banking sector, but who the fuck do you think is going to pay taxes to fund our public services? The fucking fishermen? We’re going to reopen the coal mines? Where the fuck is this income of yours coming from? Will we not need it any more?

.

Financial services aren't part of this agreement. No idea what will happen but if banking gets dismantled-great. Banking is a ponzi scheme, it doesn't contribute any net value to the country when you add up all the bailouts and other subsidies (there are a lot of those the public isn't aware of). You don't lose real value to the economy by getting rid of it. Moreover it makes it impossible to sell anything since banking keeps the pound artificially high.

From my perspective the country was fucked when Johnson got in. The country has no vision, no leadership and crucially no understanding of the importance of ai, gene splicing, automation generally etc....nothing which actually matters and is going to hit us like a train in the next decade. Membership of the EU is tangential next to that.

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The rebalancing clause(s) work both ways so if EU standards were judged to give the EU an unfair competitive advantage then the EU would either face tariffs or have to raise their standards and vice versa.

The dog wags the tail, the tail does not wag the dog.

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I hate to say it Pann but when will you ever learn, so many people on here are not here for honest debate. Their agenda is to make sure Britain looks bad no matter what the deal outcome was.

If Britain doesn't get a deal they will be ruined.
If Britain gets a deal, err they are ruined, it's not the correct type of deal.

I'm not really supportive of your little Englander crap, but I think you have the germ of a legitimate point here.

This is soft Brexit at most, remainers should be delighted. Yes it would have been better if the whole thing had never happened, but last week it looked like the nation was going off a fucking cliff in the midst of a global pandemic. I'm positively jubilant.

[LeGin Tufnel]

Moderate caring Conservatives like me are content wih it.

“Moderate”. Pfft. You booted them all out. That’s the whole point.

I won't even respond to them anymore it's pointless.

Of course you won’t. Because at best you have nothing constructive to add to the debate or at worst you’re just trolling / baiting. As I said, one thing you cannot accuse Huehue of is being disingenuous. He’s made his opinions crystal clear from the start.

This is a much better deal than remainers could possibly have hoped for at this stage. Unless of course they retain the fantasy that the conservative party acts in the interest of the British people. Celebrate! Be Happy! This could have been an economic apocalypse. The UK government's incompetence and stupidity will have MUCH less impact on ordinary people.

This is soft Brexit at most, remainers should be delighted. Yes it would have been better if the whole thing had never happened, but last week it looked like the nation was going off a fucking cliff in the midst of a global pandemic. I'm positively jubilant.

Sure. I agree in so much as crashing out on Jan 1st would have been worse than the situation we’ve ended up with. But from my understanding this is far from a BINO. I’m not going to celebrate either the circumstances that brought us to this point or the end result.

Separately: I agree focus should shift from e.g., financial services and would be happy if massive investment was made in the sectors you mentioned, also renewables. I’m sceptical that this will happen, moreso having left the EU. Putting up barriers and ending collaboration is not going to help. Ask the scientific community about their feelings with regard to ending the free movement of people. UK-based companies will not be allowed to compete for financing in the European Innovation Council’s accelerator fund. We will still have access to e.g., Horizon Europe & JRC but with but no voting rights. The list goes on. These advancements we both agree are important won’t be made in isolation.

[dribbles]

“Moderate”. Pfft. You booted them all out. That’s the whole point.

More than just me kicked them out Nigel, but the whole electorate did. You asked earlier where does the deal leave people like you? I forgot to answer, my bad...

But the political mood of the commons reflects that of the people, it has to or MP's won't get elected. You will find out where you are on Dec 30th when MP's vote on this. If 90% of MP's support Boris and vote for the deal then I would say you and people with those remain views are on the very fringes of political opinion. Certainly its not any longer a popular mainstream opinion to remain in the EU, and I would say headed for the extreme. Can I see the EU designated as a proscribed organisation one day? Maybe, I wouldn't be surprised.

I think a year from now it would perhaps be best for remainers to keep quiet about how they voted in the original Brexit referendum to avoid the inevitable shame as the promised sunny uplands arrive in the UK burying "project fear" for good.

Keep it as your dirty little secret perhaps? Join with me and the rest of the nation in celebration behind our great unifier Boris as he gets Brexit done..

4 sleeps to go.

[farsas]

I think a year from now it would perhaps be best for remainers to keep quiet about how they voted in the original Brexit referendum to avoid the inevitable shame as the promised sunny uplands arrive in the UK burying "project fear" for good.

From what I see on social media it seems that a majority of Brexiteers view this as a sell-out to Remainers Dribbles. But I'm happy to have you come around.

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“Moderate”

Separately: I agree focus should shift from e.g., financial services and would be happy if massive investment was made in the sectors you mentioned, also renewables. I’m sceptical that this will happen, moreso having left the EU. Putting up barriers and ending collaboration is not going to help. Ask the scientific community about their feelings with regard to ending the free movement of people. UK-based companies will not be allowed to compete for financing in the European Innovation Council’s accelerator fund. We will still have access to e.g., Horizon Europe & JRC but with but no voting rights. The list goes on. These advancements we both agree are important won’t be made in isolation.

Well freedom of movement does cut both ways to some extent. It did become very hard to get into the UK from outside the EU, even from the commonwealth, and I am reasonably confident that will change since business and academia will be lobbying hard for it-and I don't think the right will care that much about that stuff-we already have the same numbers of immigrants as we did before all this and they don't seem to notice. Universities and businesses have vacancies to fill and they will fill them.

But yeah I'm not crazy about that side of things, I think we have the same view it was just expecting this to go so much worse it was very easy to exceed my expectations.

[dribbles]

From what I see on social media it seems that a majority of Brexiteers view this as a sell-out to Remainers Dribbles. But I'm happy to have you come around.

Well Richard Tice, chair of the Brexit party, sums up the mood of most Brexiteers rather than social media gossip in that the deal is something we can live with for now.

Brexit compromise: elements neither side will like. Subj to detail we appear free politically, free of ECJ, foreign policy & defence but more linked than I wanted on level playing field, state aid & fishing.

We will have to find ways to deal with this in future. But it’s done.

https://twitter.com/TiceRichard/stat...45587731427336

No parliament can bind the hand of the next remember? The electorate will speak again, and Labour stand no chance if they stand on a ticket of rejoining the EU. The next election will be all about who promises to take us further away from the sphere of EU influence. Will there even be a Lib Dem left standing?

[Pann]

No parliament can bind the hand of the next remember? The electorate will speak again, and Labour stand no chance if they stand on a ticket of rejoining the EU. The next election will be all about who promises to take us further away from the sphere of EU influence. Will there even be a Lib Dem left standing?

There will be minor clashes and gnashing of teeth in the coming years over aspects of the UK/EU deal and their relationship but I can't see either of the big parties wanting to open up the Brexit debate again for at least the next decade.

The Lib Dems might stand in 2024 - assuming they're off of furlough by then - on the ticket of rejoining the EU and Farage and Brexit party - or whatever they'll be know as by then - could well be agitating but I don't see the Lib Dems making any headway or the BXP being more successful than UKIP in its heyday (probably less so) as I feel that voters have had enough of Brexit now and I don't see that changing in the future.

I predict that Lab will focus on attacking levelling up in the red wall seats so as far as I can see the Brexit debate is pretty much over.

[Huehuecoyotl]

There will be minor clashes and gnashing of teeth in the coming years over aspects of the UK/EU deal and their relationship but I can't see either of the big parties wanting to open up the Brexit debate again for at least the next decade.

The Lib Dems might stand in 2024 - assuming they're off of furlough by then - on the ticket of rejoining the EU and Farage and Brexit party - or whatever they'll be know as by then - could well be agitating but I don't see the Lib Dems making any headway or the BXP being more successful than UKIP in its heyday (probably less so) as I feel that voters have had enough of Brexit now and I don't see that changing in the future.

I predict that Lab will focus on attacking levelling up in the red wall seats so as far as I can see the Brexit debate is pretty much over.

Pretty much an impossible comment to make, at this stage. What happens next in the EU debate is going to depend on two main things; what the deal actually is (if it's too close to a BINO, then the Brexit crew will come to the fore again) and what happens to the country when the deal starts to make impacts (if it turns out to be detrimental, the pro Europe side gets energised).

We won't be able to make predictions about the politial future of this country until things start to shake out. Maybe by the time we get to the summer things will be clearer; but it may even take longer because of Covid. As long as they can mask the damage that Brexit has done, people might not sit up and take notice too much. Once it's clear that the rest of the EU are coming out of the slump quicker than us, the debate may start to shift back onto the question of why that is. And suddenly Brexit becomes relevant again.

Don't think that those of us that didn't want this are suddenly going to go quiet because the Brexit crew "won". This is the point where we hold their feet to the fire and make them grow up and take responsibility for the damage they have caused and are going to cause.