The Brexit aftermath thread

[Dizzeeyooo]

Meanwhile back in the real world with talk of a German led European army and its tanks prepared to rumble through the streets of Barcelona to quell the uprising

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41683390
the voices in your head don't count as the real world, unfortunately

[Kiri]

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme That's Erasmus, or Erasmus+ as it's known today. It grants you free access and supports you financially if you want to study abroad. Even more, it ensures that the semester you spend abroad is given credit for at your home university and absolutely counts towards your Bachelor/Masters degree.

Try that in the US. Or Japan. Try going to a college in Massachusetts and then go to a German uni telling them you'd like credit for the semester you did in the US. Chances are you'll have to fight and apply and convince for that semester to count for anything.

Actually, it is not that hard. Most universities have established channels and procedures for that, at least with their partner unis. It is easier with Erasmus, yes, but as long as you stick to partner unis, it usually works. I got every course I did in Japan accredited, though I made sure to pick suitable ones. If it doesn't work, it is usually due to the Uni or student being negligent.

[Noradin]

You sure you're still in the majority?

He, himself , and his voices are a majority all on their own (in his mind).

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Actually, it is not that hard. Most universities have established channels and procedures for that, at least with their partner unis. It is easier with Erasmus, yes, but as long as you stick to partner unis, it usually works. I got every course I did in Japan accredited, though I made sure to pick suitable ones. If it doesn't work, it is usually due to the Uni or student being negligent.

"Established channels and procedures" means there are professors on both universities who personally vouch for each other's teachings.

[Deleted]

After reading 22 pages the only thing that I keep thinking is why are words like "remoaners" not on the banned list?
Anyone saying stupid shit like that can't be taken seriously.
Same shit as "trumpists" or any of the other shit they came up with.

Holy shit I hate stupid words like that.

[Acidbaron]

Another day of talks and another day where nothing gets done because the UK cannot give a clear answer to crucial matters, May is desperately trying to make this sound positive, while it isn't and attempting to move this to the trade part of the exit strategy what really is not going to happen.

[dribbles]

You sure you're still in the majority?

Obviously you missed a word out there but for the avoidance of doubt I am sure I am still within the ever increasing massive majority.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/869...ind-staying-EU

Is there anyone left that isn't?

[Mafic]

1. Scientist collaboration is never diminished, as scientific discourse either happens on a personal basis (hi internet) or through scientific journals. Actual collaboration, as in experimental science where physical presence is important, happens on the continent. CERN being the most prominent example on why UK scientists should really like to have free access to the continent to do their work here. One big advantage the UK has are the scientific publishers, like Oxford, Wiley, Taylor and Francis that are UK based. But continental publishers are consolidating like mad, and Springer Nature, Elsevier, Wolterskluwer are already easily on par with the ones based just in the UK. And they are just getting started with their expansions.

As another person pointed out funding can be impacted but I agree that it can never truly be diminished given science isn't in the business of kicking around a political football.

2. Loss of easier access to work? That's a bit of an understatement. Right now, a UK citizen has to do one thing to be able to work in Germany. He has to show up for work. That's it. The Turkish dude? He's got to apply for a residence permit. Then for a work permit. And failing that, he's already committing illegal action. Something a regular UK citizen is really not known for. Breaking the rules and just ignoring law and order. But if you want to believe that suddenly 1.5 million British citizens on the continent will just go criminal, I guess you're right.

The Turks in Germany flaunt openly that they are there illegally. Legal migrants that put in their papers and were denied are still in Europe. But obtaining a work visa from Germany is way easier process than other parts of the world. If a Brit wants to work in Germany it is pretty straightforward and easy legal process. It is not like Japan for example or South Korea where you really have to put in a great effort to just to work for three months.

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme That's Erasmus, or Erasmus+ as it's known today. It grants you free access and supports you financially if you want to study abroad. Even more, it ensures that the semester you spend abroad is given credit for at your home university and absolutely counts towards your Bachelor/Masters degree.-

As an American it is far more cost effective to study in Germany than the United States. And scholarships and study abroad programs are constantly being offered by European nations to non EU nations. Again a non issue if we examine this realistically.

Try that in the US. Or Japan. Try going to a college in Massachusetts and then go to a German uni telling them you'd like credit for the semester you did in the US. Chances are you'll have to fight and apply and convince for that semester to count for anything.

This is a non issue. You have to fight for credits often at US universities when you transfer from one university to another which happens to be down the street or in the same state (U.S.). When you study abroad the credits are honored at Japanese and US universities because they are from accredited universities. The U.S. is unique in that not all universities are accredited. Perhaps that is the case over seas but not likely.

Economic reasons? Currency. Customs. Customs is actually a big thing. Just recently talked to a business partner in the UK about this. Sure, they'll sound optimistic on the camera for BBC, but when you speak to them 1:1, they really do not like the idea of us having to pay customs for anything here. And when I tell them they might lose us as a customer, because we really do not fancy paying customs, they'll get this sad twang in their voice. It's one thing to go "Bah, fuck the continent, who needs them." But it's another when a customer that easily brings you 6 digits per year that they might take their business somewhere else based on the cold hard fact that money rules the world, they realize just how much a Brexit could cost them.

EU is not interested in a trade war because they are hurting right now because US is pressuring EU to uphold Russian sanctions. Russian sanctions are hurting Russia but they are also hitting EU hard. So, EU isn't interested in a trade war at the moment due to Brexit and if they try that then they are fools. Also, the Chinese have great interest in the Balkan region and a trade war wouldn't sit well with them either.

So yes, fucking economic reasons. Politicians have the luxury of pushing billions of Euros here and there and talk all big and mighty about it. But at the end of the day it's the simple salesman in his lonely office that has to scramble for every customer that's going to say "Well, fuck..." everytime he hears "Yeah, you're all nice and such.. but if we buy this from the Netherlands, we'll save X on customs and they're just as good."

That is how global competition works and that is unavoidable. Did Argentina have to join EU to realize that global pressures from world markets can have on their economy? Did Argentina survive after multiple failed attempts to "launch" their economy? Yeah. Again a non issue. What do the Brits have to fear? They are not Argentina or Greece? And if you think about it why is Greece still in the EU if their economy keeps shrinking due to austerity imposed by EU?

Meanwhile... the reverse situation, and I know, this is unfair... but here's a fun irony hidden in all of this. The UK absolutely banks on the German car industry to pressure Merkel into a softer stance. It's almost like they hedged all their bets on it. So far, the entire car and metal industry in Germany hasn't piped up a bit about Brexit. They've been suspiciously quiet. The rumour mill in the media quietly speculates that they don't have a big interest in doing this favour for the UK. There could be many reasons for that: 1. They think the UK will eventually cave and call it off, 2. They don't want to deal with the image loss of "defending the UK" when the general population is rather strongly against the Brexit to begin with and clearly puts the blame, all of it, in the lap of the UK, 3. What's the English customer going to do? Buy English cars? Which ones? There's not a brand left in England that is worth taking serious. The ones that are, are owned by German auto companies!

Buy Japanese, Korean or American cars. The reason Germany car companies has been competitive for a while is, because their niche in global markets has been quality. But the quality of other car makers has elevated to the point that Germany can't bank on repeat customers coming back.

So, yes. There are a shitton of economic reasons not to do this. But they are ignored. Because once more a politician babbled on about billions and millions of Euros, shifting them around and making wild promises. And once more the simple voter got deceived into thinking "Yes, this time they mean it. THIS TIME I will actually get more money in my pocket when all's said and done."

Best case scenario? Of all the money the UK thinks it's saving (hint: it isn't any), if all of it were true and if all imagined numbers that Johnsson invented were true, the average citizen of the UK might have an extra 50 quid in his pocket. Per year. Totally worth having to pay that extra 10% surcharge on automobiles.

The incentive to stay? Simple. First off, you're not risking your economy. Always a plus. Second, if you do risk your economy, you have a body with 25 other countries that would all work together to save your ass. Third, when the US think they are 10 times bigger than you and that translates into 10 times more profit for them and 10 times worse deals for you, the EU can even out the equation. Suddenly the US isn't 10 times bigger. Suddenly the EU market is vital for US companies. Suddenly the EU (and thus the UK) has fucking leverage to manhandle the US into a position where two equals actually hammer out something resembling an actual compromise for both sides. Instead of one side throwing away peanuts to get at the flesh of the UK market. Suddenly Russia takes you seriosuly when you go "Meh, we might not change your mind, but we can hurt you."

Who's going to pay for the EU army? Who's paying for the British Armed Forces now? What do you think who's going to pay for the EU army. The Brasilian Government? The average taxpayer in the EU won't pay more for an EU army, as the logical step is to consolidate existing budgets. The British armed forces will stay the British armed forces. And they'll get paid by the British people. But they won't have to pay for logistics, because the Dutch have excellent ships doing the heavy load hauling while the Germans have excellent air lift capabilities. And so on and so forth. If the EU army becomes a thing, you'll notice how suddenly having a bigger army means you pay less. Or in other words, since tax cuts are a fantasy... every pound you pay, feeds more "army" than before.

The EU has never been stronger than it is now. You can witness that when Russia is hurting big time from our sanctions and Iran starts to try and use us against the US. Make no mistake, he's only doing that because the EU initially rejected the US stance and Iran thinks the EU can be easily manipulated. But here's the thing, Iran wouldn't give much of a fuck what Austria thinks about Iran. Now it does, albeit Austria's part in the EU is what concerns him. That's a net increase in influence for Austria. Believe it or not.

The UK leaving would diminish EU's position somewhat. But not enough to warrant throwing the idea away. And now that you've poked the bear, the EU is actually looking into doing all the shiny things the UK always blocked. I really hope you are sure about your decision to leave. Because if you ever want to reapply, it won't be the EU that you know today.

Throwing its way around arrogantly is the whole point of the EU. We're sick and tired of Russia and the US thinking Europe is their sandbox. It's not. We're our own sandbox. And it's time everyone else learned that.

Not all Europeans feel the same way! Many French and Polish citizens identify as French and Polish first and EU citizens second. Maybe that is true in some of the Scandinavian countries and Germany but not all of Europe is behind a EU superpower.

So, in conclucion, Brexit is about local nationalism and patriotism vs EU nationalistic pride. The vote showed that the voters do NOT identity with the idea of a EU super power or governing body.

[Slant]

@Mafic:

Turks in Germany usually do not flaunt that they are here illegally. Extreme cases aside, naturally. Also, not many are here illegally to begin with.

Erasmus+ isn't about getting shit credited at all. It's about it being your bloody right to be credited, without hassle. Give it up if you like. It only adds to your burden, which is the point that we're making. Sure, you can do it, but why go the hard way?

Do we offer scholarships to non-EU members? Yes, sure. Do they have a right to it? No. EU students do. This is an issue, you ignoring the increased difficulty in obtaining spots in the EU doesn't make it less important for the general population.

The EU isn't hurting anymore. Keep up to speed with current events. The US isn't pressuring the EU to uphold sanctions, it's fucking Trump that wants to get rid of them to help his friend Putin. Keep the facts straight, will you?

Those sanctions aren't really a big problem. The German economy, the largest trade partner of Russia, doesn't even register a dip. So no, the EU isn't hurting. The EU is flexing muscles and not even breaking a sweat. Do you honestly still believe the Brexit propaganda telling you the EU will break apart literally tomorrow?

Nobody here speaks about a trade war, btw. That's just you talking. The EU is strongly opposed to trade wars. Please, do watch the news, I have better things to do than repeat public knowledge for you. Greece's economy is growing... ffs, I should just stop commenting at this point...

Go ahead, buy American cars. They're known to be on par with European cars. Totally. Good luck with your Lexus.

So in conclusion, you're a half informed parrot repeating the same old boring slogans they spoonfed you during the media campaign for the Brexit. Your cluelessness serves your belief and so you won't look into anything I said so far. And thus, your one way street is finished and nothing I could ever say will change your mind.

[Kiri]

Obviously you missed a word out there but for the avoidance of doubt I am sure I am still within the ever increasing massive majority.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/869...ind-staying-EU

Is there anyone left that isn't?

According to the very poll you linked, a bit under a thousand people at the very least. Well, you did not link a poll, actually. You linked some page talking about a think tank's poll with no link to said poll.

[Kallisto]

Obviously you missed a word out there but for the avoidance of doubt I am sure I am still within the ever increasing massive majority.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/869...ind-staying-EU

Is there anyone left that isn't?

I'm surprised any remainers even agreed to talk to Express which pretty much has been insulting anyone not extreme far right since its founding. Again if you wished to be taken seriously actually pick more centrist sources.

[Gref]

if all else fails i can move to france because my partner and i have a home there.

but i do think voting leave was 100% the right thing to do

I fucking applaud you standing, hats off sir,

Today we hit a level of "idiocy + hypocrisy" that was not even possible to imagine to mankind.

The courage this man has, blatantly saying he would flee to France which is fucking EU is a world first.

I have read thousands of posts here (these 23 pages included) but this one post one short post is simply easily the most brilliant.

Don't have any kids please.

[Mormolyce]

I fucking applaud you standing, hats off sir,

Today we hit a level of "idiocy + hypocrisy" that was not even possible to imagine to mankind.

The courage this man has, blatantly saying he would flee to France which is fucking EU is a world first.

I have read thousands of posts here (these 23 pages included) but this one post one short post is simply easily the most brilliant.

Don't have any kids please.

I feel like we could devote 10 more pages to appreciating the irony of that post and still not fully do it justice.

[Slant]

Just to spice it up a bit: The German FAZ (one of the major papers in Germany) just ran a story describing how May was acting desperate at a dinner with Juncker. "Begging" was among the terms used. They cited no sources, and I haven't been able to tell where they got the story from.

Juncker and his press chief later made public statements that they did not leak anything and the situation was completely misrepresented. So I'd say this story is a bit incredible and far fetched.

How much of it did arrive in the English press? Do we think it's worth discussing? Just how bad is May's situation domestically? Are we looking at a change of PM by now?

[dribbles]

Just to spice it up a bit: The German FAZ (one of the major papers in Germany) just ran a story describing how May was acting desperate at a dinner with Juncker. "Begging" was among the terms used. They cited no sources, and I haven't been able to tell where they got the story from.

Juncker and his press chief later made public statements that they did not leak anything and the situation was completely misrepresented. So I'd say this story is a bit incredible and far fetched.

How much of it did arrive in the English press? Do we think it's worth discussing? Just how bad is May's situation domestically? Are we looking at a change of PM by now?

Serious you don't know who of the six people present leaked it, 3 on each side and wouldn't have come from the British 3? Martin Selymayr. Most people are laughing at incompetent Juncker because of it, blaming the leak on him and his chief of staff drinking too much as usual. Don't they have alcoholics anonymous in Europe?

The EU better hope May doesn't go, not to say she won't, but only a brexiteer will replace her. Nice.

[Vankrys]

Serious you don't know who of the six people present leaked it, 3 on each side and wouldn't have come from the British 3? Martin Selymayr. Most people are laughing at incompetent Juncker because of it, blaming the leak on him and his chief of staff drinking too much as usual. Don't they have alcoholics anonymous in Europe?

The EU better hope May doesn't go, not to say she won't, but only a brexiteer will replace her. Nice.

The EU doesn't give a flying f... about wether May stay or not.
The British will have to understand at some point how desperate they are.
Without a deal, the UK is doomed. The EU will easily recover, seeking other markets, but the UK desperatly need the european market. The UK exports machinery, vehicles, pharmaceuticals, aircraft and raw materials to the EU, without that market, millions will lose their jobs.

oops, reality

[Slant]

Serious you don't know who of the six people present leaked it, 3 on each side and wouldn't have come from the British 3? Martin Selymayr. Most people are laughing at incompetent Juncker because of it, blaming the leak on him and his chief of staff drinking too much as usual. Don't they have alcoholics anonymous in Europe?

The EU better hope May doesn't go, not to say she won't, but only a brexiteer will replace her. Nice.

I'm not even sure if it happened as the leak suggested, to be fair. I think someone's trying to paint May in an undeservedly bad light and fed some misinformation to FAZ. They aren't known for running odd stories, but the lack of mention of a source is all kinds of suspicious, if you ask me.

I'll call this a hoax. Or at least hoax-ish.

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The EU doesn't give a flying f... about wether May stay or not.
The British will have to understand at some point how desperate they are.
Without a deal, the UK is doomed. The EU will easily recover, seeking other markets, but the UK desperatly need the european market. The UK exports machinery, vehicles, pharmaceuticals, aircraft and raw materials to the EU, without that market, millions will lose their jobs.

oops, reality

Well, he's right, though. The EU doesn't want to have to deal with lunatics like Johnsson directly. They might as well call it quits and go home, because with Johnsson a deal will never come to pass. And despite current propaganda, the EU very much would like a deal for England, as the consequences would be dire for that island if there was no deal. This isn't even about the EU, which has/has had enough time to insulate itself against damages. The main reason we're at a standstill seems to be the ominous "brexit bill", which Germany and France will have to come up with if England doesn't pay. Make no mistake, we can afford it. Easily. It's just that we don't want to.

[Deleted]

I fucking applaud you standing, hats off sir,

Today we hit a level of "idiocy + hypocrisy" that was not even possible to imagine to mankind.

The courage this man has, blatantly saying he would flee to France which is fucking EU is a world first.

I have read thousands of posts here (these 23 pages included) but this one post one short post is simply easily the most brilliant.

Don't have any kids please.

He he, this was a nice response.

On another note, nice admission of the poster to consider failure of Brexit talks. As in - this might actually have dire consequences for Britain, a scenario, this very special kind of the voting base refused to deal with.

[Floopa]

Britain will 100% end up with no deal because we aren't giving a penny to eu

that's a good thing though. tax payers and parliament would never approve anything north of 20bil (which is our legal duty to EU).

we'll consider 20 bil for a trade deal and that's it, anything else is just the media lying because Britain would never accept it.

no deal it is.

even donald tusk said today eu faces a Brexit defeat. the tables are turning, Britain's resilience is shining through

[dribbles]

I'm not even sure if it happened as the leak suggested, to be fair. I think someone's trying to paint May in an undeservedly bad light and fed some misinformation to FAZ. They aren't known for running odd stories, but the lack of mention of a source is all kinds of suspicious, if you ask me.

I'll call this a hoax. Or at least hoax-ish.

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Well, he's right, though. The EU doesn't want to have to deal with lunatics like Johnsson directly. They might as well call it quits and go home, because with Johnsson a deal will never come to pass. And despite current propaganda, the EU very much would like a deal for England, as the consequences would be dire for that island if there was no deal. This isn't even about the EU, which has/has had enough time to insulate itself against damages. The main reason we're at a standstill seems to be the ominous "brexit bill", which Germany and France will have to come up with if England doesn't pay. Make no mistake, we can afford it. Easily. It's just that we don't want to.

Not everyone in the UK wants a deal with the EU, not everyone in the EU wants a deal with the UK. Imagine how you would feel if Britain had sentenced your Grandfather to 15 years for war crimes then suddenly you were given the opportunity to try and punish the UK during the Brexit negotiations?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...in-Brexit.html

That's how it is being reported today. Any EU negotiator, even drunken Juncker himself, with perhaps the motivation for a no deal for whatever reason, is working on the side of the no deal Brexiteers. They might prefer to deal with Johnson, they get their no deal, brexiteers get their no deal, win win for all.

[Kiri]

Britain will 100% end up with no deal because we aren't giving a penny to eu

that's a good thing though. tax payers and parliament would never approve anything north of 20bil (which is our legal duty to EU).

we'll consider 20 bil for a trade deal and that's it, anything else is just the media lying because Britain would never accept it.

no deal it is.

even donald tusk said today eu faces a Brexit defeat. the tables are turning, Britain's resilience is shining through

What he said was

“We have managed to build and maintain unity among the 27 but ahead of us is still the toughest stress test. If we fail it the negotiations will end in our defeat,” Tusk said. “We must keep our unity regardless of the direction of the talks. The EU will be able to rise to every scenario as long as we are not divided.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...urges-eu-unity

That is him saying that if the EU cannot stay unified in the negotiations, the latter will fail. He does not say that negotiations are bound or even likely to fail. But of course you would not spin that for your own narrative, definitely not.

Edit:

Not everyone in the UK wants a deal with the EU, not everyone in the EU wants a deal with the UK. Imagine how you would feel if Britain had sentenced your Grandfather to 15 years for war crimes then suddenly you were given the opportunity to try and punish the UK during the Brexit negotiations?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...in-Brexit.html

That's how it is being reported today. Any EU negotiator, even drunken Juncker himself, with perhaps the motivation for a no deal for whatever reason, is working on the side of the no deal Brexiteers. They might prefer to deal with Johnson, they get their no deal, brexiteers get their no deal, win win for all.

That is not news being reported, that is an opinion piece....
But I guess since it gives you an evil German boogeyman to project on, you will take every single word written down there as a complete fact.

Selmayr is a jerk and full of himself though, that much is clear. But I haven't really seen him behead any people yet, so I don't exactly know how he would match an acolyte of Robespierre during the reign of terror. It is perfectly possible that he can be professional about this and not be motivated by 'revenge' or whatever.

I mean my own grandfather actually spent 10 years in a Soviet prison camp and I wouldn't want to punish modern day Russians for that. Not everyone is a cartoon villain.