The Brexit aftermath thread

[Slant]

You people are the most illiberal liberals in human history.

And you need to stop using buzzwords if you don't know what they mean. Especially when you think they're an insult, but they're really not. Like, really the fuck not.

[Skroe]

Theresa May, aka Dollar Store Margret Thatcher, should do the right thing and just call off the entire shit show on the basis of it being a really dumb fucking idea that was never legally binding in the first place.

But then again, British Parliament is basically the WWE. And just like how Roman Reigns will never be more than a faint echo of Stone Cold Steve Austin or the Rock, Theresa May will never be more than a faint echo of Maggie.

That's my insightful read of Brexit: it's the dumbest WWE plotline to ever escape into real-life that can't end soon enough because everyone hates how it started, how it's going and how its going to end.

Now that we've covered that, I''d also really like to see some Labour backbenchers heel turn during PMQs and hit Jeremy Corbyn with a folding chair when he's asking May a question, and then deliver the people's elbow for good measure.

[Shalcker]

Go and read the regs again, all your answers are in it. wtf? stop trolling.

Sorry, i did (re-read it again just now to be sure i haven't missed it), and it's not there.

Maybe some language there references some obvious concept that would explain it?

But no direct explanation to my question. No mention of how non-compliance is handled, nor how different classes are handled in practice.

the classifications are for buyers so they know what they are getting as standard. You could stick the bananas up your arse and call yourself mary queen of scots for usage.

Assuming it can get to me, that is.

if it doesnt fit the minimum requirements its clearly not fit for human consumption or just waste so cant enter the market (because no one wants to buy it or it can be used for industrial purposes)

Are you saying that if something doesn't fit for Class II by any part of marketing standard (like having "abnormal curvature"), it is banned from appearing on EU markets?
Can you suggest me keywords i should use to get it in language of EU regulations rather then your guesswork?

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On another note, how does it get "not fit for human consumption" (and then becomes "Class II" when "we just want to protect EU farmers in difficult conditions") just by being shorter? :/

14cm or longer is necessary minimum requirement in document separate from "broadly looking like being fit for human consumption" part; plus, marketing guidelines aren't supposed to define "fit for human consumption", that is part of health/safety/phitosanitary rules.

Is there something i don't get that makes 10cm Cyprus bananas inherently inferior?

[Slant]

Sorry, i did (re-read it again just now to be sure i haven't missed it), and it's not there.

Maybe some language there references some obvious concept that would explain it?

But no direct explanation to my question. No mention of how non-compliance is handled, nor how different classes are handled in practice.

Assuming it can get to me, that is.

Are you saying that if something doesn't fit for Class II by any part of marketing standard (like having "abnormal curvature"), it is banned from appearing on EU markets?
Can you suggest me keywords i should use to get it in language of EU regulations rather then your guesswork?

------

On another note, how does it get "not fit for human consumption" (and then becomes "Class II" when "we just want to protect EU farmers in difficult conditions") just by being shorter? :/

14cm or longer is necessary minimum requirement in document separate from "broadly looking like being fit for human consumption" part; plus, marketing guidelines aren't supposed to define "fit for human consumption", that is part of health/safety/phitosanitary rules.

Is there something i don't get that makes 10cm Cyprus bananas inherently inferior?

It's not that hard, Shalcker. An imbecile could understand it. If you want a label "Type I Banana" on the banana, you meet those requirements. If you don't meet those requirements, you don't get a label. That's all there is to it. This isn't about what is or is not allowed on the market. If your food is not edible, that'll be when it gets banned. So, good luck with your fucked up mutant banana that doesn't meet any requirements. You can still try to sell it, but chances are people are going to grab those Type I-III bananas they know and love.

[Demolitia]

Sorry, i did (re-read it again just now to be sure i haven't missed it), and it's not there.

Maybe some language there references some obvious concept that would explain it?

But no direct explanation to my question. No mention of how non-compliance is handled, nor how different classes are handled in practice.

Assuming it can get to me, that is.

Are you saying that if something doesn't fit for Class II by any part of marketing standard (like having "abnormal curvature"), it is banned from appearing on EU markets?
Can you suggest me keywords i should use to get it in language of EU regulations rather then your guesswork?

------

On another note, how does it get "not fit for human consumption" (and then becomes "Class II" when "we just want to protect EU farmers in difficult conditions") just by being shorter? :/

14cm or longer is necessary minimum requirement in document separate from "broadly looking like being fit for human consumption" part; plus, marketing guidelines aren't supposed to define "fit for human consumption", that is part of health/safety/phitosanitary rules.

Is there something i don't get that makes 10cm Cyprus bananas inherently inferior?

It just defines different classes so that everyone know what they are buying. Typically for retail supermarkets will buy the highest class, which is what most people will buy. Other classes will be used for different purposes, but there is nothing barring you from trying to sell class II veggies and fruits in your shop. People generally won't buy them. So you have the highest class for retail as is, and when you go down in class you will typically see those products undergo more processing. Class I and I extra are the ones sold to shops, restaurant and companies making fruit salads and smoothie booths. Class 2, the ugly looking and slightly damaged one will go to the factory to be turned into apple-banana sauce and banana bread, since once retailed nobody will know what it looked like in the first place.

edit: Slant beat me to it, but basically it's just there so there is a legal background allowing you to return or refuse delivery of produce that do not fit what you ordered.

- - - Updated - - -

snip.

Welcome back!

[Shalcker]

It's not that hard, Shalcker. An imbecile could understand it. If you want a label "Type I Banana" on the banana, you meet those requirements. If you don't meet those requirements, you don't get a label. That's all there is to it. This isn't about what is or is not allowed on the market. If your food is not edible, that'll be when it gets banned. So, good luck with your fucked up mutant banana that doesn't meet any requirements. You can still try to sell it, but chances are people are going to grab those Type I-III bananas they know and love.

Okay, so, which specific regulation stops me from, for example, selling unmarked bananas? Is there none?

What is the process of banning something and how is it distinct from "not meeting minimal requirements"?

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It just defines different classes so that everyone know what they are buying. Typically for retail supermarkets will buy the highest class, which is what most people will buy. Other classes will be used for different purposes, but there is nothing barring you from trying to sell class II veggies and fruits in your shop. People generally won't buy them. So you have the highest class for retail as is, and when you go down in class you will typically see those products undergo more processing. Class I and I extra are the ones sold to shops, restaurant and companies making fruit salads and smoothie booths. Class 2, the ugly looking and slightly damaged one will go to the factory to be turned into apple-banana sauce and banana bread, since once retailed nobody will know what it looked like in the first place.

Is that traditional arrangement or is that actually codified in any specific EU documents? What about produce that doesn't fit some "minimal" requirements?

I see language about allowing using national standard rather then EU for anything already grown locally (at stages past unripened).

edit: Slant beat me to it, but basically it's just there so there is a legal background allowing you to return or refuse delivery of produce that do not fit what you ordered.

Oh, there is specific return/refuse delivery policy attached too? Can i get link to that as well?

Or is that also tradition rather then law?

[Twdft]

Argueing about bananas for pages risks some moderator coming in and closing "thread has run its course.

stop feeding Shackler already.

[Shalcker]

Okay, so this seems to be regulation i asked for - or at least something similar enough - "COMMISSION IMPLEMENTING REGULATION (EU) No 543/2011 of 7 June 2011 laying down detailed rules for the application of Council Regulation (EC) No 1234/2007 in respect of the fruit and vegetables and processed fruit and vegetables sectors"

Apparently all enforcement is down to national level.

1. By way of derogation from Article 113a(3) of Regulation (EC) No 1234/2007, the following products shall not be required to conform to the marketing standards:

(a) provided they are clearly marked with the words ‘intended for processing’ or ‘for animal feed’ or any other equivalent wording, products:
(i) intended for industrial processing, or
(ii) intended for animal feed or other non-food use;
(b) products transferred by the producer on his holding to consumers for their personal use;
(c) products recognised in a Commission Decision taken at the request of a Member State in accordance with the procedure referred to in Article 195(2) of Regulation (EC) No 1234/2007 as products of a given region which are sold by the retail trade of the region for well established traditional local consumption;
(d) products having undergone a trimming or cutting making them ‘ready to eat’ or ‘kitchen ready’.
(e) products marketed as edible sprouts, following germination of seeds of plants classified as fruit and vegetables under Article 1(1)(i) and Part IX of Annex I to Regulation (EC) No 1234/2007.

2. By way of derogation from Article 113a(3) of Regulation (EC) No 1234/2007, the following products shall not be required to conform to the marketing standards within a given production area:
(a) products sold or delivered by the grower to preparation and packaging stations or storage facilities, or shipped from his holding to such stations; and
(b) products shipped from storage facilities to preparation and packaging stations.

3. By way of derogation from Article 113a(3) of Regulation (EC) No 1234/2007, Member States may exempt from the specific marketing standards products presented for retail sale to consumers for their personal use and labelled ‘product intended for processing’ or with any other equivalent wording and intended for processing other than those referred to in paragraph 1(a)(i) of this Article.

4. By way of derogation from Article 113a(3) of Regulation (EC) No 1234/2007, Member States may exempt from the marketing standards products directly sold by the producer to the final consumer for personal use on markets reserved only for producers within a given production area defined by Member States.

5. By way of derogation from Article 113a(3) of Regulation (EC) No 1234/2007 as regards the specific marketing standards, fruit and vegetables other than the ‘Extra’ Class, at stages following dispatch, may show a slight lack of freshness and turgidity and slight deterioration due to their development and their tendency to perish.

6. By way of derogation from Article 113a(3) of Regulation (EC) No 1234/2007, the following products shall not be required to conform to the general marketing standard:
-snip-

7. Evidence shall be supplied to the competent authority of the Member State that the products covered by paragraphs 1(a) and 2 fulfil the conditions laid down, in particular with regard to their intended use.

And of course after finding it i can see it referenced in banana standards linked before...

[dribbles]

Argueing about bananas for pages risks some moderator coming in and closing "thread has run its course.

The EU are very very fussy about Bananas, they have to be just so or are deemed inedible. Every few years committee after committee made up of dozens of EU elites on 6 figure salaries paid for by UK, among others, tax payers assemble pages and pages of legislation and directives about bananas. It is the classic example of how UK money is flushed down the drain by the EU for no good reason. Of course many EU supporters and EU funded bananologists think such things are a good use of EU resources and for many it might be the only reason and "benefit" of being in the EU - that perfect banana. So no sireee, don't underestimate the importance or mess with EU bananas. We couldn't have had brexit without them, but the legislation and compliance involved has probably cost billions. They could have bought an army instead, or fed the starving in Africa but oh no...

And then not content with the perfect musa sapientum fixa, they start on legislating such things as light bulbs, hoovers, weedkiller, toilet flushes and so on on and so on. All at my and your expense eurochums.

Not for much longer for us though tick tock...

[Demolitia]

Is that traditional arrangement or is that actually codified in any specific EU documents? What about produce that doesn't fit some "minimal" requirements?

I see language about allowing using national standard rather then EU for anything already grown locally (at stages past unripened).

It simply gets shipped back, or refused at delivery on the grounds of it not meeting the standards.
Well that's the thing. It's a regulation that is obscure ti the general public but it's really quite simple and flexible. If a member state has stricter rules, they can enforce them. All EU regulation is just bare minimum stuff. Each country is free to go deeper if they wish to.

[Fuiking]

The EU are very very fussy about Bananas, they have to be just so or are deemed inedible. Every few years committee after committee made up of dozens of EU elites on 6 figure salaries paid for by UK, among others, tax payers assemble pages and pages of legislation and directives about bananas. It is the classic example of how UK money is flushed down the drain by the EU for no good reason. Of course many EU supporters and EU funded bananologists think such things are a good use of EU resources and for many it might be the only reason and "benefit" of being in the EU - that perfect banana. So no sireee, don't underestimate the importance or mess with EU bananas. We couldn't have had brexit without them, but the legislation and compliance involved has probably cost billions. They could have bought an army instead, or fed the starving in Africa but oh no...

And then not content with the perfect musa sapientum fixa, they start on legislating such things as light bulbs, hoovers, weedkiller, toilet flushes and so on on and so on. All at my and your expense eurochums.

Not for much longer for us though tick tock...

Feeding the starving... my grandmother who was born in 1925 had to collect silverpaper for the poor and starving children in Africa.... And still we are sending money to them.

[Northern Goblin]

The banana thing, good lord. You realise that they merely categorise the quality of bananas so that when stores buy stock, they know exactly what they're getting.

As someone who, many moons ago, did part of his school work experience in supermarket retail, I spent a full day in the banana cage and I learned two things.

1. We buy a ridiculous number of bananas every day.

2. There are a stupid number of people who get fussy as hell when it comes to size/shape and number of bananas, often trying to flip the fucking cage panels while you're restocking one side, thus trapping your arm in the process.


Quality control doesn't ban bananas, it just protects retail from getting ones they may not sell. It's much like that other law that regulates cucumbers.

Oh wait, that was a law the British made themselves in the 60s, way before joining the EU.

[twothmothe]

I spent a full day in the banana cage

That sounds like a metaphor for your intellect.

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Argueing about bananas for pages risks some moderator coming in and closing "thread has run its course.

What you really need is a complete absence of any competing viewpoints on a discussion forum.

[Veggie50]

Okay, so, which specific regulation stops me from, for example, selling unmarked bananas? Is there none?

What is the process of banning something and how is it distinct from "not meeting minimal requirements"?

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Is that traditional arrangement or is that actually codified in any specific EU documents? What about produce that doesn't fit some "minimal" requirements?

I see language about allowing using national standard rather then EU for anything already grown locally (at stages past unripened).

Oh, there is specific return/refuse delivery policy attached too? Can i get link to that as well?

Or is that also tradition rather then law?

The difference between banning, and not getting a label is simple.

If it’s banned, you cannot import it.
If it doesn’t get a category I to III label, you can import it, but there won’t be many buyers.

Those standards are defined because parties don’t buy “bananas”. They buy “category I bananas”. With those standards, the buyer can define what that actually means. So if he gets “ugly” bananas, theres a breach of contract.

How is that handled in practice? Lawyers, unpaid invoices, ugliness. All the law states is that the buyer doesn’t need to accept them, and therefore doesn’t pay. How the bananas get back is the sellers problem.

[Shalcker]

It simply gets shipped back, or refused at delivery on the grounds of it not meeting the standards.
Well that's the thing. It's a regulation that is obscure ti the general public but it's really quite simple and flexible. If a member state has stricter rules, they can enforce them. All EU regulation is just bare minimum stuff. Each country is free to go deeper if they wish to.

And in practice it means that anything not meeting minimal requirements (including "bananas being too bent" or "bananas being too small") is banned (from sale under any designation other then feed or processing) under threat of prosecution. Making original claim true.

"Banning" isn't in original EU document, but that is the only way it actually gets enforced.

Here is specific UK legislation on that end:
These Regulations provide for the enforcement in England and Wales of EU marketing standards for bananas set out in Commission Implementing Regulation (EU) No 1333/2011 laying down marketing standards for bananas, rules on the verification of compliance with those marketing standards and requirements for notifications in the banana sector (OJ No L 336, 20.12.2011, p 23).
...
Under regulation 4, it is an offence to fail to comply with Article 7 of the Commission Regulation, a written undertaking, a movement control notice or a warning notice. It is also an offence under that regulation to intentionally obstruct an authorised officer or to fail to give information or to give false information to an authorised officer. Regulation 5 sets out the maximum penalty for an offence under the Regulations.

(penalties there are limited to Level 5 fine - 5000 pounds)

Of course it is sensible policy - in most cases. In fact it codified previously existing sensible market policies.

Which in itself could be a problem. Sensible market policies can change rapidly; laws - much less so.

For example, i see no argument as to why size reduction with all other characteristics being fine is worthy of being relegated to feed/processing or no higher then Class II as an exception.

[LeGin Tufnel]

on topic

May won’t budge

Something NEEDS to shift next week.

If I were an EU 27, I’d just want to chuck the U.K. out now. There are good reasons for them not to offer us an extension.

Last couple of months have really changed my opinion on this. U.K. is a disgrace. Our politicians are completely incompetent.

No-one gives a fuck about bananas, other than the stupid Sun / Express / Mail-readers who bought into this shit in the first place.

[Slant]

on topic

May won’t budge

Something NEEDS to shift next week.

If I were an EU 27, I’d just want to chuck the U.K. out now. There are good reasons for them not to offer us an extension.

Last couple of months have really changed my opinion on this. U.K. is a disgrace. Our politicians are completely incompetent.

No-one gives a fuck about bananas, other than the stupid Sun / Express / Mail-readers who bought into this shit in the first place.

The fun bit is... The UK keeps talking about if they want to take an extension or not. As if it's their decision.... like they always do.

The EU have said MONTHS ago already that an extension would only be granted if the UK had another referendum or if the UK had another GE. The UK won't get an extension because they ask nicely. And the extension would only be up until May, so basically... A MONTH. :P

[Slant]

The EU could give them a longer extension, but they would have to have EU MEP elections

The EU really, really doesn't like that idea from what I've heard. And there's nothing happening in UK politics that would even hint at the promise of any kind of constructive political solution helping anyone even with an extension.

So.. I'll ask here what I've asked Youtube a dozen times by now (albeit, my monitor doesn't seem to understand me):

What would this extension be for? What is the actual "thing" UK MPs intend to do with the extra month(s)? The only thing I've come up with is... "have the catastrophe a bit later". If I was in Brussels, I'd use the bandaid method of just ripping it off now rather than later. Get on with it, as the British like to say. If you have to fuck everyone's day up, don't take your sweet fucking time doing it...

[ranzino]

any guess what will happen next week ?
if the Letwin-Cooper amendment passes, May would be obliged to ask for delay in 2 weeks after, means ides of march (oh, i like the irony) aka fri march 15 as last possible day.

"Et tu, Brute ?"

[Slant]

any guess what will happen next week ?
if the Letwin-Cooper amendment passes, May would be obliged to ask for delay in 2 weeks after, means ides of march (oh, i like the irony) aka fri march 15 as last possible day.

"Et tu, Brute ?"

She can certainly ask... do the British MPs know there's a precondition they have to meet before getting an extension? Wtf, why am I even asking... of course they don't. It'll be amusing either way, have them pass the amendment with lots of circus in the House of Commons only to get it rejected by the EU within 5 minutes of being in Barnier's office.