The Brexit aftermath thread

[Gorsameth]

No, that is not true, the were multiple negotiators from the EU involved and it's simply not possible they were all retarded. They knew full well what was being agreed wasn't possible, they agreed to it anyway because they knew it wouldn't be their problem when it didn't work.

The big problem at the moment, is that everyone on the EU side seems entirely focused on blaming the UK politicians for their part in creating this unworkable mess, while ignoring their own role in creating it. This won't be resolved until both sides stop flinging poo at each other and sit down to negotiate a new/revised agreement that it's actually possible to implement.

What the UK offered is entirely possible, please explain how it is not.
Why should the EU have thought that the UK had no intention of putting a border in the Irish Sea and why would that somehow be completely unworkable?

And what is the EU role in creating this mess? The EU didn't make the UK leave the EU. Nor did the EU force the UK to leave the single market. The EU has always been entirely clear in how the freedom of goods works and how that is tied to the other freedoms, including free movement of people. There was never a solution to the UK leaving the single market that does not involve a border somewhere between the UK and the EU. And since the EU are not the ones who initiated this mess they obviously have no interest in putting a border between Ireland and the rest of the EU.

Its a problem the UK had to solve, and they never did. May tried it with the backstop that the UK wouldn't accept and Boris sold out NI to do it.

[Thrundi]

when in reality both sides are to blame and the mess can only be fixed by the sides coming together to find a viable solution

Except no. "but both sides" relativism is complete bullshit.

irish sea border is a viable solution. It sucks. Anyone with a brain knew it would suck. But it's viable.

[Huehuecoyotl]

I missed this particular bit of Brexit inspired stupidity, but did anyone see that the Ukraine deal that we signed in October last year had to be reopened this week, because a large amount of the text had been cut and pasted, and it effectively tied us into EU rules!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1884518.html

Incompetent and clueless. The Brexiteers ride again!

[Veggie50]

This pretty much sums up the whole debacle right now, everyone (especially politicians) seems obsessed with blaming the other side for the mess while absolving their own side of blame, when in reality both sides are to blame and the mess can only be fixed by the sides coming together to find a viable solution

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During the Brexit campaign our current PM said that leaving the EU didn't mean leaving the single market, as that would be foolish. Kinda shows how trustworthy he is xD

Imagine we’re faring across the ocean on a boat together. One day I decide the boat would look nicer with holes in the bottom and I start drilling.

Now the boat is rapidly taking on water and I call for your help in dealing with those holes. We partly succeed, but it’s not entirely water tight. I then say it’s your fault for not fixing the boat properly.

Now theres 3 options:

1) you accept the blame.
2) we share the blame.
3) you slap me like the retard I am and blame me.

I know which option I’d call fairest.

[caervek]

Imagine we’re faring across the ocean on a boat together. One day I decide the boat would look nicer with holes in the bottom and I start drilling.

Now the boat is rapidly taking on water and I call for your help in dealing with those holes. We partly succeed, but it’s not entirely water tight. I then say it’s your fault for not fixing the boat properly.

That analogy doesn't really work, a more accurate one would be:

Imagine we’re faring across the ocean on a boat together. One day I decide the boat would look nicer with holes in the bottom and explain my plan to you, I know full well this will sink the boat but hopefully I won't be on it by then and right now I just want the kudos for doing something to "improve" the boat. You immediately realise my plan will sink the boat, but hopefully you won't be on it by then and right now you just want the kudos for doing something to "improve" the boat so you agree and we drill the holes.

When the boat starts sinking we each blame each other, while refusing to do anything to fix the damn holes.

Politicians /sigh >.>

[caervek]

What the UK offered is entirely possible, please explain how it is not.
Why should the EU have thought that the UK had no intention of putting a border in the Irish Sea and why would that somehow be completely unworkable?

It's a complicated issue but to put it as simply as possible, the whole of the British Isles operates a Schengen Style area called the CTA (it's pretty much what Schengen was inspired by) and putting a border in the Irish Sea or in-between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland (without imminent military threat) wouldn't be permissible under the CTA. The EU knew this long before Brexit because it was the entire reason the UK and the RoI had to join the EU as a pair, because having a country join the Customs Union who had an open border policy with another country would be disastrous.

So yeah, the Brexiteers who negotiated it were lying through their teeth just to get the thing signed, as were the EU politicians who agreed to what they knew was impossible to enforce

[jonnysensible]

EU politicians who agreed to what they knew was impossible to enforce

how is it impossible to enforce? the enforcement arrangements are in the agreement.

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yea. if they break an international agreement it will result in penalties from the EU (and US + CPTPP will die), as the agreement says and NI will moody as fuck.

[Gorsameth]

It's a complicated issue but to put it as simply as possible, the whole of the British Isles operates a Schengen Style area called the CTA (it's pretty much what Schengen was inspired by) and putting a border in the Irish Sea or in-between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland (without imminent military threat) wouldn't be permissible under the CTA. The EU knew this long before Brexit because it was the entire reason the UK and the RoI had to join the EU as a pair, because having a country join the Customs Union who had an open border policy with another country would be disastrous.

So yeah, the Brexiteers who negotiated it were lying through their teeth just to get the thing signed, as were the EU politicians who agreed to what they knew was impossible to enforce

checking the CTA on wikipedia the 3e sentence is

Based on agreements that are not legally binding,[6] the internal borders of the CTA are subject to minimal controls

So I don't see why the EU would be worried about a non legal binding agreement made internally in the UK.

Besides if the WA was not legal because of the CTA I would have expected it to be challenged in UK courts. Is the WA currently being challenged in UK courts based on its supposed violation of the CTA?

[Veggie50]

That analogy doesn't really work, a more accurate one would be:

Imagine we’re faring across the ocean on a boat together. One day I decide the boat would look nicer with holes in the bottom and explain my plan to you, I know full well this will sink the boat but hopefully I won't be on it by then and right now I just want the kudos for doing something to "improve" the boat. You immediately realise my plan will sink the boat, but hopefully you won't be on it by then and right now you just want the kudos for doing something to "improve" the boat so you agree and we drill the holes.

When the boat starts sinking we each blame each other, while refusing to do anything to fix the damn holes.

Politicians /sigh >.>

I agree with most of your modifications, except that the EU had no say in the UK triggering article 50 (drilling the holes), and was only conscripted into creating a new situation (fixing the boat).

[Huehuecoyotl]

Ignore the burner spouting nonsense. They will be gone shortly.

[Thrundi]

So, you're discovering that every country has rules dictating trade ?

This is not unusual, or new ...

Everyone can trade with the EU, if they meet the requirements. Same goes for every country on earth. They accept imports provided you meet their requirements. Including the UK ...

So ... what ? EU bad, because MUKGA ?

This whole shitshow was decided by the UK, and the rest of the world can only compose as best they can to ensure they are not impacted too much ...

[Gorsameth]

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This agreement took a long time and only came into existence because Boris offered to exclude NI from the UK.

There is no new agreement that can be negotiated that does not put a border somewhere in the UK without the UK agreeing to rejoin the single market without any say in the rules of said market.

And yes the EU has self imposed rules. They are called safety and quality standards. Shockingly most countries have some form of them and since the EU is a single open area anything that comes in has to meet the EU wide requirements because it can then be transported throughout the entire EU with minimal fuss.

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or some sort of NI deal with ROI on agri-products 'risk'. If they can make agreements that products wont be sold on waivers could be implemented in NI/ROI.

This is actually part of the WA. There is a bunch of paperwork for items that go to NI to assure they won't move into the EU. These 'waivers' are for a large part what the current discussions are about because UK companies are upset they have to do a whole bunch of bureaucracy to move items within the UK (but across the Irish Sea).

This is exactly the 'in the UK but not really' situation that we all warned was happening with this WA by Boris.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Stop biting with the burner troll. Report and move on.

[Demolitia]

Stop biting with the burner troll. Report and move on.

Sir yes sir!

[jonnysensible]

1464 pages in and we have discovered the single market. the unstoppable march of human progress.

[Demolitia]

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Thanks. I really had a good laugh. This is really not how it works though.

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1464 pages in and we have discovered the single market. the unstoppable march of human progress.

Turn around guys ... we fucked up ...

[Twdft]

I've watched documentaries on the paperwork the EU is requesting.

They are asking for HUNDREDS of pages of documentation for ONE order. (Which equates to millions of printed pages per day).

Purposely blockading trade SIMPLY BECAUSE.

Only an obtuse mindset would blame the UK for these EU requests.

So the same as any other third country.

Why are you surprised to be treated like a third country after you voted to leave and be a third country?

ps: Ahh, it's the resident burner. I wonder if it's even the same or if he just gets stupider every time he makes a new account.

[Elegiac]

I think its almost cute that people are finally discovering the effects of what they voted for, years after many people told them about those effects.

Something something leopard's eating people's faces party.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

I think its almost cute that people are finally discovering the effects of what they voted for, years after many people told them about those effects.

But that was just Project FEAR, right? Right?

/sigh

[Elegiac]

you are the only one who keeps mentioning rejoining its almost 5 years and you still havent moved on from the conversation.

its about what the relationship with the EU and UK is now and moving forward.

Will the UK keep its integrity by applying the same rules that are now applied to NI across the whole UK, or will it completely move away from the single market and customs union and have to deal with the NI border problem. Thats what the talk is about.

Don't forget Irish reunification, we're also talking about that.

(Also 72 county Ireland)