Time to increase gap in raid loot?

[Aggrophobic]

I'm sorry, but yes the argument is perfectly valid. No one person can ever truly speak for everyone they believe they can. Just because people tell you something doesn't always mean that is what they believe. As some people tend to tell others what they want to hear as to not upset them, get into an argument ever. Trying to have a civial conversation and saying "I speak for ALL" doesn't help it much to start with. You need to present only your ideas because that is the only person you are able to truly represent.



No one is denying there are multiple types of people playing this game. I see the other side presented by others, but the problem is all of their "problems" are more on their need to feel better than others and make others know it type mentality. Not everyone is like that, but every "argument" presented against it points that way.



Legendaries has absolutely zero to do with Titanforging and you can't relate the two as you did. Legendaries are an entirely different issue. Trying to use them in an argument about Titanforging doesn't help any because the two are correlated with how they work.

You also sound like you are upset that there are incentives to always do Mythic+, Invasion Points, previous raids, rare elites, etc. That is the exact point of why they did Titanforging. No piece of content during the time of it's expansion should feel so completely unrewarding that it's a waste of time. Emerald Nightmare doesn't drop the greatest loot, but if you were to run it you have a chance. The odds of getting Emerald Nightmare gear to titanforge to Tomb of Sargeras levels is so rare that if it did happen I'd wonder if I got hit with lightning next or win the lottery.

Titanforging gives you a reason to go do these activities, whether on your alt, helping out friends or just going for transmog gear.



Again, no you don't speak for everyone. Admit it and be plain and simple you speak only for yourself, there is nothing wrong with it. Don't attempt to hide behind "we" statement as it doesn't help with getting your point across.

Did I miss somewhere on how you weren't able to get Cutting Edge? It's still in the game and you are still able to complete all these tasks. Titanforging has nothing to do with that. Your issues here, again, seem to be about something else instead of Titanforging.



Blizzard didn't create that environment. The playerbase did. You can't blame the actuals of the entire playerbase on a company. Unless someone has some kind of proof of Blizzard talking to these people and asking them to do these things and at that point I'd admit I was wrong.

The "hostile" environment you speak of has always existed and has nothing to do with Legion only. People always ridiculed others because they were only at X level and they were Y level. This is nothing new.



If you have farmed truly as much as you said you did then you would have it by now. Mages only have 23 legendaries there are people with even more on other classes. But I digress this issue is something completely different and doesn't involve Titanforging, which the conversation is about.



Nothing has changed you are still on a similar gear level as others doing the content you are doing. Stop pretending everyone has +20-40 iLvLs over your entire group while this isn't the case.



Again STOP bringing up Legendaries as to why you think Titanforging is bad. The two systems are completely different and have nothing to do with each other. It's not helping you present your side.



While I know this is about legendaries again, it kind of goes with titanforging somewhat. People have always been upset you can invest more time and not get rewarded for it. Now you claim "everyone" is upset that you want to spend less time and get the same rewards? Yeah, no.



Yes, you can. Stop blaming Legendaries for Titanforging. It has NOTHING to do with this conversation.



Legendaries does not equate to Titanforging.



So you supposebly speak for "everyone" and say you don't care when randoms get high ilvl loot, but clearly others say they do. Now which is it? That's right, because you nor they can speak for everyone and goes back to the very first quote I did on you about it.



This is because your argument is nothing about Titanforging, but about Legendaries. The two aren't the same.



No you do not. STOP equating Legendaries to Titanforging.



Except Titanforging doesn't affect this. You are once again not separating the two and adding Legendaries to your argument because you help feel it pushes it to the forefront, it doesn't. It just makes it so you can't preset your idea in the way it needs to be so most people will only look at that aspect.

If you aren't able to clear Mythic raids with 940 loot and need Titanforge / Netherlight / etc then yes that means you aren't "skilled". Skilled in this case means being able to move out of things, not get killed, etc. Getting more power is nice, but you shouldn't rely on getting more power to "brute force" your way through something.

If you feel like having all 940 gear with ~50-60 concordance traits aren't possible on Kil'jaeden then you need to look at the actual fight and contents. Is it overtuned? Perhaps some things need tweaking, etc. If you rely on strict power upgrades to overcome the challenge then you aren't doing the actual challenge itself, you are rely on artificial upgrades to carry you. This is the equivalent of say 101 twinks. They aren't able to clear dungeons on their own and rely on others, but with twink gear they are able to clear the entire dungeon. Was it tuned properly for them to start with? Yes. Having that extra power though gave them the ability to blitz through it to negate the challenges.

There are mythic guilds who proved you don't need 940 gear, netherlight, etc to clear the encounters. So if you are having a hard time doing so as well then that leaves one thing apparent. Your guild isn't as skilled as it thought it was and relied strictly on power upgrades. Which is fine and there's nothing wrong with it. Using it to blame why something is bad though doesn't help.



These are all personal choices you made. There are plenty of people who have geared out toons that are raid ready at various levels of the game. Some people have multiple alts fully geared with Heroic Tomb of Sargeras loot (from the raid). Others don't. You want to place personal perception on why you can't do things and there is nothing there to stop you.

Having Blizzard hand hold us from making bad decisions isn't what the game needs. Players need to hold themselves accoutable for their action. If you feel like you need to do X, Y, and Z to be competitve then fine, but don't expect Blizzard to hold your hand and say no. That's why the whole mentality of "nerf LFR Mythic raiders don't like running it". No one forced you too, that was your choice and you could've stopped at any point. We saw Blizzard revert it after WoD because they agreed that wasn't the system to go with and it was so minor of an issue that the ones who complained about it made it seem worse than it was.



Except they aren't rants, but feel free to see it as that. That just shows that for some reason you aren't able to counter it with something, that is if it was easily a rant and didn't make sense.

If you don't want to continue the discussion that's fine, but at least back it up on why and not just "herp derp I'm done with them so I'm gonna say they make no sense so I sound amazing and I win" type mentality (no that's not to say that's exactly what you are saying, just the jist of the idea).

You can't agrue with someone who makes up their own facts and keeps repeating the same bullshit over and over. Thats why.
Hope that helps.

[Lucetia]

You can't agrue with someone who makes up their own facts and keeps repeating the same bullshit over and over. Thats why.
Hope that helps.

Well if that was the case you could easily dispute it with your own facts and everything.

the very first kill on mythic avatar had a higher average ilvl than the loot he drops, and if we just go down to top 20-30 then it's way higher
and dont forget that his hp literally had to be hotfixed to be less in the first week because he was unkillable in gear he supposedly drops

Do you by chance have a source on that (not saying you are wrong, just that I couldn't find any on google just now) as I'd be interested in seeing it.

As for being hotfixed that shows it was indeed overtuned at the start. No one disputes things like that, but things that have to be hotfixed, especially during World First kills doesn't affect Titanforge as it's a different issue.

[Aggrophobic]

Well if that was the case you could easily dispute it with your own facts and everything.



Do you by chance have a source on that (not saying you are wrong, just that I couldn't find any on google just now) as I'd be interested in seeing it.

As for being hotfixed that shows it was indeed overtuned at the start. No one disputes things like that, but things that have to be hotfixed, especially during World First kills doesn't affect Titanforge as it's a different issue.

Or you just show us where Blizzard stated that the most diffucult content is just there for the challenge and that it was never intended to reward better loot as you say?
Oh, thats right. They never said anything of the sort.

[Atherions]

The problem has never been LFR raiders/world quest casuals getting really lucky and getting a 930+ item from that content. Its the massive difference in difficulty between heroic and mythic raids and how small the difference in rewards is. By the time a regular mythic raider kills a boss on mythic he is very likely to have items from that boss within 5 ilvls. Its really uninteresting to spend a month on a boss only to get items you already have. I know some non mythic raiders think mythic should only be for the prestige and not for the gear. But this game is an RPG, if something does not progress your character it just feels lame to do. Heroic is just too easy to give only 15 ilvls below mythic. What i would like to see is that mythic bosses have gradually higher ilvl rewards, much the same way it was done in HFC, except only on mythic. In tomb that would mean that the first 3 would give 930 just like now, the next two would give 935, mistress and maiden would give 940 and the last two would give 945. That way as the weeks progress you are much less likely to have heroic gear that is better than the gear from the current mythic boss you are progressing on.

[Teri]

Itemlevels need to be squished, not stretched, 30 itemlevels between tier is already exponentially huge with the way stats increase like 30-40%.

DPS/Healers will easily reach 7 million health with access to 985 TF gear and 1000 legendaries.

Difference between a 955 and 985 item is still huge.

Right now highest person I could find on WoW progress is 953 and has 5.7 mill health as a hunter, surely another 1.3 million health from 20-30 itemlevels isn't out of reach.

I do hope next expansion gear becomes more linear from 1-110 at least. But it'd require a full re-tuning of mob health and such, but that still doesn't seem impossible if they want to add more scaling to things.

Also LFR Tomb raiders won't get 955 in their lifetime, even if they could raid it 1 year in a row, the chance for a 885 to go 955 is astronomically small. Let alone full set of BIS gear on the SAME character.

Even if you had 1 item per raid go 955 guaranteed, it'd be random and not for 1 and the same person...

I have gotten a 945 shoulder from a pvp world quest, 890 base, so that's a +55 itemlevel, doesn't mean it makes my full character 945 or even that it's best in slot. Also that's the only time I've seen a TF that high in thousands of items.

[Raiju]

Oh, so you mean exactly what people were doing in all the past expansions. Except instead of additional alt runs they can siphon into mythic+. So what people are doing now has always been there.

The only the high end raiders don't like is that they feel forced to do the split/alt runs to stay competitive. This is a choice they make however and no one is forcing them. There really is no ideal solution to cut off alt runs. The issue with alt runs and getting gear and titanforging are two different things.

People are so bent up with lumping Titanforging into everything and trying to make an issue out of nothing because it ruins their perception of anything or even their "prestige" level.

No. People do far more this expansion and the result is they walk into bosses often with higher ilvl than it drops the first time they see it on mythic. This is new to this expansion.

[shaunika123]

Do you by chance have a source on that (not saying you are wrong, just that I couldn't find any on google just now) as I'd be interested in seeing it.

As for being hotfixed that shows it was indeed overtuned at the start. No one disputes things like that, but things that have to be hotfixed, especially during World First kills doesn't affect Titanforge as it's a different issue.

https://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/tarren-mill/Method

928.39 ilvl

and if we go to number #9
then it's already 932

and it does matter, because after the fiasco that was emerald nightmare
blizzard basically started balancing dps checks around the fact that people will be in gear equal or higher than the loot drops, it's very clear if you compare dps checks in EN and NH/ToS (the only exception being maiden who was for some reason really undertuned)

[Miatog]

-this means that we cannot cheese endbosses with optimal class-setups

This mentally right here is an issue IMO, and it's one Blizzard has been actively working to remove for a while now. It's why they did stuff like giving lust to more classes, giving battle rez to more classes, even removing the hour long buffs. Now will they completely get rid of it? I doubt it. But less and less do I hear guilds saying they need X class or spec, they need X role filled in their raid team, and that's a great thing. Players are being brought in more than classes.

Now, as for the rest of your letter. I remind you of the Method player who rolled up a new character the day 7.2 hit, and was still Mythic raid ready when the time came. Obviously luck plays a part in it, and it sucks you haven't gotten your desired legendary, and Ion has said that the current system isn't perfect, improvements will be made in the next expansion.

I'm not a mythic raider, work makes it hard for me to raid at all this expansion. Even if I had the time I realized that I'm not fit for that level of raiding anyways. But to be honest, most of the problems you and your friends have and those like you feel self imposed. The odds of you getting that TF piece from lower end raiding that will help you is astronomical. Based on what I can find it takes far less effort than you're putting in to get all of your legendaries, but again this goes to one of the issues Ion has said they need to work on.

[Lucetia]

https://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/tarren-mill/Method

928.39 ilvl

and if we go to number #9
then it's already 932

That's barely much higher than. If they were in full 940 gear + 2 legendaries at 970 that would place their average iLvL at 944 so being about 1-1.5 iLvL's higher isn't much. For their ilvl to be that high they would need 6 pieces at 945, 8 at 940, 2 at 970. Granted that's just at basic levels and with titanforging could have several 920's etc. So that's about right and even with titanforging being at a +15 cap like some want that would still happen. At a +15 cap (and assumed it was 100% for math) that's 2 955 pieces, 12 940 and 2 970's.

No. People do far more this expansion and the result is they walk into bosses often with higher ilvl than it drops the first time they see it on mythic. This is new to this expansion.

People do it far more this expansion because they feel they are being better rewarded for it because there's always that chance. In the past it was got it, done. They also have other incentives to go back. AP / Legendaries, etc. You can't pull out just Titanforging and say that's the issue when there are plenty of reasons why people do older material.

Or you just show us where Blizzard stated that the most diffucult content is just there for the challenge and that it was never intended to reward better loot as you say?
Oh, thats right. They never said anything of the sort.

While I didn't put much effort into it you can find various sites that state that Mythic mode was created so it could allow them to "focus on delivering the best possible experience for competitive hardcore raiders". Best experience does not always equate into loot. Other places mention that Mythic difficulty for raids is designed to be the most challenging instance available. Which is satisfies. It also offers highest item level gear (which it does, it's the highest base gear you can get in the game), exclusive achievements (Cutting Edge / Mythic achievements), mounts (sometimes, not always) and other rewards (different cosmetics on gear).

[DreamSlaveOne]

I have a feeling that it's more optimal to gear farming 3-4x30 heroics splits then progress in mythic. Though, no one in my guild want to test it

[Kaesebrezen]

https://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/tarren-mill/Method

928.39 ilvl

and if we go to number #9
then it's already 932

You are aware, that if their equipped itemlvl is 928.X, that they in fact hardly wearing any 930 gear. If you substract out the 2 * 40 itemlvl over 930 that legendaries give, their average is 923.

So with a ton of splitfarming, and titanforging, their itemlvl went from the "915 without titanforging" to "923 with titanforging".

Or you just show us where Blizzard stated that the most diffucult content is just there for the challenge and that it was never intended to reward better loot as you say?

People would stop at mythic+10 by your logic, as anything past that wouldn't give you any reward.

Yet suprisingly people do go for clearing the highest possible mythic+, for nothing but a high rank on some site.

[shaunika123]

You are aware, that if their equipped itemlvl is 928.X, that they in fact hardly wearing any 930 gear. If you substract out the 2 * 40 itemlvl over 930 that legendaries give, their average is 923.

So with a ton of splitfarming, and titanforging, their itemlvl went from the "915 without titanforging" to "923 with titanforging".

yes, in a week and a half

as i said, look up guilds that didnt kill the boss in a state where noone else managed to

and they're gonna be 7-10 ilvls higher than 925

[Kaesebrezen]

yes, in a week and a half

as i said, look up guilds that didnt kill the boss in a state where noone else managed to

and they're gonna be 7-10 ilvls higher than 925

So what? That just means they weren't good enough to kill the boss, and required the gear to clear it.

[shaunika123]

So what? That just means they weren't good enough to kill the boss, and required the gear to clear it.

so only method is good enough in the entire world.

then that's some overtuned shit right there

[Kaesebrezen]

so only method is good enough in the entire world.

then that's some overtuned shit right there

We're getting there!

With better tuning, much more guilds would've been able to kill the bosses with signficantly lower itemlvl, and in consequence, all bosses would've dropped gear upgrades long before titanforging or anything else overgeared them.

[Deleted]

The entire idea behind Mythic Raiding is stupid and really an average job by blizzard.


There is really no "challenge" in myth raiding rather than :

• 1 Massive Spam of tries, see method or other top guild aiming for WF
• 2. Farm other source of drops for TF just to overgear the fight, see how now a lot of guilds stalling at Maiden or Avatar HAVE HIGHER ITM LVL than the actual boss drop, only KJ drops actually better.
• 3. No really challenge beside "this spell in myth deals 3 times the hc dmg, wow amazing challenge that can be just cheese with more gear or now NLC or there are fight not tuned see KJ done by method after the nerf.

During Vanilla or TBC there were no HC nor Myth raiding and yet the raiding difficulty gap was 100 times better than now and people could yet pug some raid.

The peak of "challenge raiding" was only in WOTLK during Ulduar with the -hard modes-

[Tradu]

I can't speak for any guild that has been clearing it as no one knows the internals but them, but if a vast majority are only able to clear it with a high ilvl then that means a few different things. None of these things are related to what level loot drops. If they were only able to clear it after all the nerfs (ie needing crucible, etc) then it might be more towards the group isn't as experienced as they thought they were. It also could mean, and a big possibility, that the content is overtuned for it's intended ilvl. If you are struggling to clear the end boss and need to go over his ilvl that generally points more to an overtunement or guild not as good as it is. Neither of these are affected by what ilvl drops. From what I hear about it being Tomb of Soakness it's probably more the encounter and a topic for another day.



No, what this means and pointed out above is that something isn't tuned appropriately here. Either the gear in all the difficulties need to be bumped up to match the difficulty or things need to be tuned (brought down) to be more in line with what is given to required ratio.



Mythic has always given the best gear because that's what people cried out needed to happen. High end guilds want challenge. Blizzard wanted to present them the challenge of Mythic mode. People believe that no one will do it because there is no incentive so they gave higher gear. Now you still have higher gear and need less luck to have it titanforge and get a higher level. Lower difficulties need a lot of luck to get it to titanforge that high to start with.

The main issue I keep seeing though is that Mythic is extremely challenging and the gear it gives isn't rewarding enough. That alone tells us that it's perhaps too hard for most people and need to be undertuned some after a bit of time being out. It could also be the reality that most are finally realizing that their guild isn't as great as they thought they were and relied on other nerfs in the past (nerfs seem to go out less this expansion than past ones)



Except that removes the incentive to do those things. Why do normal mode when all you can get is heroic loot? Might as well do heroic. Why continue to clear normal mode with your raid to gear them up so you can do heroic when you have no loot to look forward to? You can make up an excuse why not to be there. Why do world quests if they give crap for rewards. You remove titanforging and then you start to remove reasons why you should do content. Raiding has been in a decline for awhile in past expansions. This expansion actually gives reasons to go back and do content.

People argue that raids like LFR Emerald Nightmare shouldn't give ToS level loot. The odds of titanforging a 835 to 930 loot is pretty outstanding. People look at the few outliers and consider it the norm and that it's bad for everything. Certain streamers also voice their opinion on it because it shatters their reality/snowflakeness/etc so everyone takes what they say as gospel.

There shouldn't be an incentive to keep farming normal if you raid heroic, or normal+heroic if you raid mythic. You've outgrown the content, it should no longer give upgrades/relevant gear for you. If you want to help some friends with easy content, you don't also need to get upgrades from it.

This obsession with keeping every single bit of content relevant for every single player is insane. It just means the better you get, the more "content" you should be doing, rather than just harder content.

[Deleted]

The entire idea behind Mythic Raiding is stupid and really an average job by blizzard.


There is really no "challenge" in myth raiding rather than :

• 1 Massive Spam of tries, see method or other top guild aiming for WF
• 2. Farm other source of drops for TF just to overgear the fight, see how now a lot of guilds stalling at Maiden or Avatar HAVE HIGHER ITM LVL than the actual boss drop, only KJ drops actually better.
• 3. No really challenge beside "this spell in myth deals 3 times the hc dmg, wow amazing challenge that can be just cheese with more gear or now NLC or there are fight not tuned see KJ done by method after the nerf.

During Vanilla or TBC there were no HC nor Myth raiding and yet the raiding difficulty gap was 100 times better than now and people could yet pug some raid.

The peak of "challenge raiding" was during WOTLK -> Ulduar with the usual "hard mode" for extra gear.

[Lucetia]

There shouldn't be an incentive to keep farming normal if you raid heroic, or normal+heroic if you raid mythic. You've outgrown the content, it should no longer give upgrades/relevant gear for you. If you want to help some friends with easy content, you don't also need to get upgrades from it.

The incentive is to actually help others out. A lot of people will refuse to help friends and stuff because they feel it's pointless unless they have an alt to take in there. Now if they take their main they could get lucky. While most people would think to help their friends, randoms, etc they will see "What's in it for me" first. No, not everyone is like this, but a lot are.

[Emerald Archer]

4. 935 -> 955 (Mythic)

I'd like to see it so that the lower difficulty couldn't reach the ilvl of the one above it. So 935-945. 10 warforges, not 15.