Let's talk about vanish (subtlety)

[elfporn]

I was gonna bring up the niche of the whole thing and yea, the fact that rogues don't really need another cheese ability but I figured that was a given.
Currently it is a big dps loss to not use vanish with the legendary shoulders. Regardless, I will continue to find it odd that a utility CD has been made into a dps CD.

You seem to be ignoring what I said with the possibility of Blizz adding in a CD to replace vanish as a dps CD because why not.

it's not "just" a utility ability, vanish has niche uses that change depending on the situation - if we lost the shoulders effect, one of those niche uses would be gone.

it makes for interesting decision based gameplay as it is currently.

[Leetbeartank]

Why are all of you terrible rogues saying that vanish's main utility is saving gold during wipes? That's not it at all. You can cheese mechanics in a lot of different situations using vanish.

[RobertoCarlos]

Why are all of you terrible rogues saying that vanish's main utility is saving gold during wipes? That's not it at all. You can cheese mechanics in a lot of different situations using vanish.

Really? Tell us more. What is this cheese you speak of

[shaunika123]

Why are all of you terrible rogues saying that vanish's main utility is saving gold during wipes? That's not it at all. You can cheese mechanics in a lot of different situations using vanish.

like what?

[Leetbeartank]

Here's an easy one... You can stop Fenryr's Ravenous Leap early if you vanish it mid jump. There are more you can figure out once you learn your class.

[shaunika123]

that sure sounds like something i'd want to lose a dps cd over

[Varolyn]

Using vanish to cancel fixates is a bad idea. Dps loss would be too big and those mechanics are usually easy to deal with anyway.

[elfporn]

Using vanish to cancel fixates is a bad idea. Dps loss would be too big and those mechanics are usually easy to deal with anyway.

not to mention doing so usually causes them to re-fixate on someone less able to handle the mechanic and it usually doesn't notify said person.

The example given is horrible too - you should always evasion that.

[RobertoCarlos]

Here's an easy one... You can stop Fenryr's Ravenous Leap early if you vanish it mid jump. There are more you can figure out once you learn your class.

Ah so one example from a M+ where speed is incentivized you hold one of your biggest dps cooldowns, destroying your opening dps delaying the boss fight longer where you are more likely to get more leaps.

Evasion does the trick for fenryr no need to waste dps cooldowns.

Got any more rogue expert?

[Leetbeartank]

LOL that's the wrong ability dudes. You're all clueless, World Quest Heroes.

[Deleted]

LOL that's the wrong ability dudes. You're all clueless, World Quest Heroes.

Still not worth wasting vanish. Your healer should be able to handle that mechanic no problem.

[elfporn]

LOL that's the wrong ability dudes. You're all clueless, World Quest Heroes.

LOL you're talking about the leap? Wow. Let me put it this way - We did a +15 HoV with no healer this week. Ravenous leap is a joke of a mechanic. You should NEVER use vanish to drop target on it.

Dropping target for fixates is a bad idea in any situation these days - they've made it so that fixate mechnics re-aquire targets, and warnings do not go out for them. Rogues are also extremely capable of handle almost any fixate type mechanic better than anyone else.

[Leetbeartank]

Wow elf porn... You're doing year old content without a healer? You must be the best rogue ever. You're missing the point... You CAN use vanish effectively as a utility ability. And at ilvl 850 trying to push a 15 key, that was helpful.

Same with vanishing Xavius's spells, which could one shot you at the beginning of Legion. Surviving in M+ is more important than dps... But your dps shouldn't suffer because much because you used vanish to live or help others live. They added shadow dance so you could use vanish as utility... Let's hope they keep it that way in the next expansion.

[Deleted]

Wow elf porn... You're doing year old content without a healer? You must be the best rogue ever. You're missing the point... You CAN use vanish effectively as a utility ability. And at ilvl 850 trying to push a 15 key, that was helpful.

Same with vanishing Xavius's spells, which could one shot you at the beginning of Legion. Surviving in M+ is more important than dps... But your dps shouldn't suffer because much because you used vanish to live or help others live. They added shadow dance so you could use vanish as utility... Let's hope they keep it that way in the next expansion.

what the fuck are you even on about.

[elfporn]

what the fuck are you even on about.

Yea i'm not sure either, we've already explained that target dropping fixates in group content is a horrible idea.

Vanish is not useful in group content except as a dps cooldown, or wipe survival. Target dropping mechanics is bad because blizzard has largely fixed that sort of exploit with target re-aquisition mechanics. You definitely used to be able to break the game that way.

They did not add shadow dance so that vanish could be used as utility. They added shadow dance to support the Find Weakness debuff and the playstyle that went with it. Shadow dance continues to be supported because the sub theme is a strike from the shadows archetype.

Even in 850ilvl gear at the start of the expansion, it was better for you to feint or cloak or evasion than to vanish a fixate mechanic - you (as a rogue) are better able to survive than the (surprised) player the mechanic is then used on.

[Leetbeartank]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ravenous+%20leap
LOL @ fixate
Blizzard has not fixed this "exploit." It still works with any spell if you time it correctly. Get practicing scrubs.

[elfporn]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ravenous+%20leap
LOL @ fixate
Blizzard has not fixed this "exploit." It still works with any spell if you time it correctly. Get practicing scrubs.

Youre an idiot. Ravenous leap is a multi-target ability. Not specifically a fixate. Fine maybe it works for it, or maybe fenryr picks another target. Did you check? As we mentioned earlier, youre dumb for using vanish on this ability or any other mechanic in group content for the purpose of target dropping.

Any raider will tell you that fixate abilities reaquire upon target loss. With no warning to the new target. Its proven fact.

[Leetbeartank]

It stops the ability completely... Like I said long ago. As in nobody gets hit at all. Vanish does have utility when you're a good player and understand game mechanics. Good players will find a way to use it as one. Which is why I said in the first place... Using this ability as a major dps cool down (which it is now) sucks. There are much better and fun ways to use it, letting us use real dps cool downs to dps.

[shaunika123]

It stops the ability completely... Like I said long ago. As in nobody gets hit at all. Vanish does have utility when you're a good player and understand game mechanics. Good players will find a way to use it as one. Which is why I said in the first place... Using this ability as a major dps cool down (which it is now) sucks. There are much better and fun ways to use it, letting us use real dps cool downs to dps.

we understand it, but it doesnt matter, it's not a threatening mechanic, even in high M+
and again, even if we add every single mechanic like that in legion, the total tally will be less than 10 encounters.
do we really need to sacrifice a great dps cd just so sometimes, occasionally vanish will have some minor utility benefits

because here's the thing, vanish doesnt stop having utility just because it's a dps cooldown.

if the gain is big enough you still have the option of trading off dps for utility, which actually IS ABOUT SKILL

unlike using the ability for just the one thing it's good for.

if vanish was nothing but a target drop ability, we'd have no decisions to make.
yeah for a few weeks (maybe months) into the expansion it'd matter until we figure all this shit out, but after that it's basically a common thing.

not to mention, that just because you use it for target dropping doesnt mean it cant be used for dps after still
you know the timers of the boss, you can even hold off on dance/symbols for a few seconds, and have your cake and eat it too.

all you're suggesting, is removing choice and versatility


Y

ea i'm not sure either, we've already explained that target dropping fixates in group content is a horrible idea.

Vanish is not useful in group content except as a dps cooldown, or wipe survival. Target dropping mechanics is bad because blizzard has largely fixed that sort of exploit with target re-aquisition mechanics. You definitely used to be able to break the game that way.

They did not add shadow dance so that vanish could be used as utility. They added shadow dance to support the Find Weakness debuff and the playstyle that went with it. Shadow dance continues to be supported because the sub theme is a strike from the shadows archetype.

Even in 850ilvl gear at the start of the expansion, it was better for you to feint or cloak or evasion than to vanish a fixate mechanic - you (as a rogue) are better able to survive than the (surprised) player the mechanic is then used on.

to be fair, it works on focused dreadflame on KJ too, he wont reaquire a new target.

[elfporn]

I freely admit that i've never actually gotten focused dreadflame and...it's dealt with anyways