Mega-Thread: Mueller investigation

[Felya]

Lol! That is a good one cubby. Thanks for the chuckle.

He won’t be able to use “executive privilege” to hide documents, nor will his personal attorney be the AG.

[Dontrike]

Lol! That is a good one cubby. Thanks for the chuckle.

Jail or not he has a couple dozen investigations just waiting for him the moment he stops being president.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Lol! That is a good one cubby. Thanks for the chuckle.

The Mueller report didnt lay out that there was no collusion. It specifically said the Trump campaign did willingly accept a meeting from Russians for dirt on Hillary... which is illegal. The only lack of sticking points laid out in Mueller's own words, was that Trump didnt "know" it was illegal so they couldn't stick and indictment on that point.

Well guess what Trump knows is illegal now. Not gonna say I'm gonna "wait" on him being caught on trump tower 2.0 simply because we KNOW its gonna happen now, lul.

[Ghostpanther]

The Mueller report didnt lay out that there was no collusion. It specifically said the Trump campaign did willingly accept a meeting from Russians for dirt on Hillary... which is illegal. The only lack of sticking points laid out in Mueller's own words, was that Trump didnt "know" it was illegal so they couldn't stick and indictment on that point.

Well guess what Trump knows is illegal now. Not gonna say I'm gonna "wait" on him being caught on trump tower 2.0 simply because we KNOW its gonna happen now, lul.

Well, as the old saying goes, time proves all things. I do remember some on here saying shortly after Trump was elected, he would not last a year in office. But I do find it interesting ( entertaining also ), some are buying into Pelosi's political wrangling comments to keep her base patient.

[cubby]

So, quasi-legal question for you, is there a consensus view on whether a sitting president can pardon himself? If not, and Trump loses the election, he has no choice but to resign and let Pence pardon him, right?

Edit - I'm assuming we'd be in agreement on a new AG indicting him.

There is a general, but entirely untested, consensus that a sitting President cannot pardon himself. That statement, even as general as I put it, however, comes with a huge caveat. We are in seriously uncharted waters here with President Individual-1, and no one can really know where he will send us next.

So yeah, if he's smart, he'll resign after losing the 2020 election and have Pence pardon him. However, one major problem exist, even with those events transpiring (and not including the fact that he's not smart). While a Pardon prevents federal charges, it's understood, at least now, that state charges are exempt. So he would still be up against those (there is a double jeopardy issue coming down the SCOTUS pipeline as well - FUN!).

[Flarelaine]

There is a general, but entirely untested, consensus that a sitting President cannot pardon himself. That statement, even as general as I put it, however, comes with a huge caveat. We are in seriously uncharted waters here with President Individual-1, and no one can really know where he will send us next.

There was consensus on a LOT of things presidents could not do and he went and did them anyway.

[Orbitus]

So, quasi-legal question for you, is there a consensus view on whether a sitting president can pardon himself? If not, and Trump loses the election, he has no choice but to resign and let Pence pardon him, right?

Edit - I'm assuming we'd be in agreement on a new AG indicting him.

I don't think you can, because you cannot be your own judge, I think there is a law about that. Which is why, most ethical officials, congresspeople, and judges will recuse themselves if they are part of the investigation. You know, like Sessions did.

Just going to put this from LawfareBlog: https://www.lawfareblog.com/self-par...e-think-he-can

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Lol! That is a good one cubby. Thanks for the chuckle.

You think it is a joke? We already know he is an un-indicted co-conspirator in Michael Cohen's case.

[cubby]

Lol! That is a good one cubby. Thanks for the chuckle.

He'll be indicted on Obstruction charges the moment he's a private citizen. Even the SOL won't matter because of extenuating circumstances. Plus, and I do love how Trumpkins memories are so pliable, he is still under investigation for 10+ other matters.

Remember - Trump lies with almost every breath he takes. At some point you'll realize this.

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There was consensus on a LOT of things presidents could not do and he went and did them anyway.

Good point. What a sad state of affairs the U.S. has become thanks to that Crime Family Boss. Hopefully 2020 will prevail and we can begin to set things right.

[Shadowferal]

Impeachment time!

Well, after "a few" people at congress grow a spine.

Democrats just won't do anything anyway.

This staunch refusal to do something anything is amazing.

[Felya]

Democrats just won't do anything anyway.

This staunch refusal to do something anything is amazing.

Oh you’ll get used to it... after Obama’s refusal to investigate Bush’s war, it made it pretty clear that Democrats lack the intestinal fortitude. I thought it was to mend fences and bring ‘both sides’ together, but we got 8 years of birth certificate and Benghazi, followed by Trump. It didn’t stop the ‘Democrats are just partisan’ bullshit and yet, dnc is still refusing to confront the bullshit. I might be jaded, but DNC and guts are mutually exclusive. Am still voting for who ever they put up, but that’s a testament to our system, not Democrats.

[cubby]

Democrats just won't do anything anyway.

This staunch refusal to do something anything is amazing.

I disagree. The calculus for moving forward with Articles is dramatic. Pelosi and the Dems have to do this just right or it could backfire. Not doing it at all is also a choice, obviously.

Right now the various House Committees are doing their investigations, which is precisely what they should be doing. The pace of all this kills me inside, but it has to be done both correctly from a procedure standpoint, and timely from a political standpoint.

[Felya]

I disagree. The calculus for moving forward with Articles is dramatic. Pelosi and the Dems have to do this just right or it could backfire. Not doing it at all is also a choice, obviously.

Right now the various House Committees are doing their investigations, which is precisely what they should be doing. The pace of all this kills me inside, but it has to be done both correctly from a procedure standpoint, and timely from a political standpoint.

But, how much of it actually matters? Barr won’t let anything touch Trump.

[Shadowferal]

I disagree. The calculus for moving forward with Articles is dramatic. Pelosi and the Dems have to do this just right or it could backfire. Not doing it at all is also a choice, obviously.

Right now the various House Committees are doing their investigations, which is precisely what they should be doing. The pace of all this kills me inside, but it has to be done both correctly from a procedure standpoint, and timely from a political standpoint.

I'm almost willing to wager that they will drag their collective feet until the election is over next year.

[Felya]

I'm almost willing to wager that they will drag their collective feet until the election is over next year.

I don’t think they have a choice...

[Bodakane]

I disagree. The calculus for moving forward with Articles is dramatic. Pelosi and the Dems have to do this just right or it could backfire. Not doing it at all is also a choice, obviously.

Right now the various House Committees are doing their investigations, which is precisely what they should be doing. The pace of all this kills me inside, but it has to be done both correctly from a procedure standpoint, and timely from a political standpoint.

I disagree.

Impeachment doesn't have too succeed. It won't. But it wont;t because of Senate Repubs. Which is why the this is the second most opportune time to do it (the first being if the dems had control of everything). If they try and fail, the Dems can stand on the fact that they tried to uphold the law and the Repubs hate the law and the country.

Everyone forgets, all these elections are nothing more than a battle to convince moderates who to vote for.

[cubby]

But, how much of it actually matters? Barr won’t let anything touch Trump.

IMO it matters for drawing up Articles of Impeachment. I agree that Barr has made it clear that nothing legal will touch Trump while he is office, effectively and practically making Trump above the law, in any matter. Which is disturbing in and of itself.

I think what we are doing (we being those of us still sane) is two-fold. One, laying a case for Impeachment, if we go there; and two, getting ready to defeat Trump in 2020 so we can indict and convict him. IMO those should be our only two goals. The only thing that matters is getting him out of office so we can begin to repair and heal this country.

[Beazy]

I don’t think they have a choice...

And it all hinges on Biden winning vs Trump. . . . I have a bad feeling Trump can/will beat Biden.

If he stays, he will keep Barr, no doubt about that.... and then we can all forget about justice for another four more years.

[cubby]

I'm almost willing to wager that they will drag their collective feet until the election is over next year.

It's very possible they will - if the leadership decide not to impeach, then they will flesh out their investigations until the election, keeping Trump on the ropes as much as that's possible. We're in such dangerous uncharted ground with President Individual-1. I've said it before, one of the only reasons he might be running in 2020 is to keep from going to jail.

If he wins in 2020 we might be truly lost as a country.

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I disagree.

Impeachment doesn't have too succeed. It won't. But it wont;t because of Senate Repubs. Which is why the this is the second most opportune time to do it (the first being if the dems had control of everything). If they try and fail, the Dems can stand on the fact that they tried to uphold the law and the Repubs hate the law and the country.

Everyone forgets, all these elections are nothing more than a battle to convince moderates who to vote for.

Ok, that is a very good point. And I believe procedurally, McConnell has to bring the Articles up for a vote on Conviction. I have gone back and forth on whether I think it's a good idea to invoke Articles. You're right, he won't be convicted - there isn't even close to 2/3rds vote in the Senate (maybe not even a majority).

It would be nice to have done the right thing on moral grounds though. If they do invoke Articles, I think they should make the entire process as brief as possible. Lay out the charges and the evidence, and vote.

[Beazy]

If they do invoke Articles, I think they should make the entire process as brief as possible. Lay out the charges and the evidence, and vote.

Thats a dangerous game to play. You dont want to head into "election season" with an Impeachment attempt smacked down by Rs in the Senate. You hand the Rs a pretty big free win. Trump will never stop talking about how the corrupt dems failed to impeach him "CUZ NO COLLUSION".

[cubby]

Thats a dangerous game to play. You dont want to head into "election season" with an Impeachment attempt smacked down by Rs in the Senate. You hand the Rs a pretty big free win. Trump will never stop talking about how the corrupt dems failed to impeach him "CUZ NO COLLUSION".

I would argue that the reverse would be true. The Dems would have impeached him, and the Repubs would have failed to convict. The Dems would be on the right side of law and morality going into an election where independent votes matter.

I do agree, however, that the entire situation is a very dangerous game.