8.0 Paladin Hopes, Fantasies, Guesses?

[Morally Grey Storm]

I was short a couple essence last week for a legendary so did the random BG 3 days in a row. Top damage each day, 1 total death across all 3 days, I don't even know how many KBs. I haven't tried arena but so far, nothing has sucked about PVP for me, in BGs at least.

Oh well then.
I guess a few unrated BGs are a surefire proof that REt is ok in PvP, then.
Sure as sure.

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If it can generate more HoPo than CS per minute you’re going to be using the ranged ability especially if it’s a short cast timer and spammable.

Casting means no autoattacks
no autoattacks means no BoWrath procs
no BoWrath procs means no BoJ cd resets
No BoJ cd resets means less HoPo and a slower rotation

What an awesome synergy, right?

[Swampmoose]

Oh well then.
I guess a few unrated BGs are a surefire proof that REt is ok in PvP, then.
Sure as sure.

Certainly proof enough for myself that your statement below is just more tears.

That's the trick, though: everything about Ret sucks in PvP this expansion.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Certainly proof enough for myself that your statement below is just more tears.

No.

These are ten characters alright.

[Kalisandra]

He is right tho, paladins aren't suppose to jump around and run like crazy, with that being said paladins really need more movement especially in pvp. Pony for instance solves this problem even tho its kinda stupid, probably something like antorus teleportation heroic leap would work too, like it doesn't break the class fantasy and its a gap closer.

Well, in PvP the problem was having slow movement outside the horsey, having to use two GCDs to get movement speed (one to HoF to remove snares, one to use the horsey), having an awful snare that forced us into a single specific talent/PvP talent to get a (bad) autosnare, and having slow damage build up while in contact. The result was that Rets waddled after someone, finally made contact, got in a swing or two, and then lost contact again, probably never getting it back. The only things I could catch as Ret were healers that had to hard cast, the odd caster who had to hard cast (i.e. a badly talented Elemental), and DKs (and they have basically the same problem anyway). I'm a bad paladin healer, but did better as a healadin in arenas than as Ret. If you saw a Frost Mage when you entered an arena as Ret it was worth considering just quitting out - the loss was less frustrating that way.

[Taeldorian]

Oh well then.
I guess a few unrated BGs are a surefire proof that REt is ok in PvP, then.
Sure as sure.

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Casting means no autoattacks
no autoattacks means no BoWrath procs
no BoWrath procs means no BoJ cd resets
No BoJ cd resets means less HoPo and a slower rotation

What an awesome synergy, right?

For a fight where you’re out of range a lot of the time the auto attacks won’t matter much. We might not even be picking the BoJ talent in BfA but either way on bosses like Portal keeper M you can have literally no downtime with the cast.

It’s not hard to figure out. On fights where there’s heavy movement (Agramar M, portal keeper M, etc) that basically force you out of range, this talent will shine since you will be able to build HoPo and keep uptime even out of range.

The cast time is also very very short. You’d miss about 1-2 auto attacks from the cast which is very worth it. Not only that but if you’re out of range there’s no auto attacking to begin with. It’s clear that this talent can be a huge benefit for fights with heavy movement or mechanics that force you out of range.

[Deleted]

For a fight where you’re out of range a lot of the time the auto attacks won’t matter much. We might not even be picking the BoJ talent in BfA but either way on bosses like Portal keeper M you can have literally no downtime with the cast.

It’s not hard to figure out. On fights where there’s heavy movement (Agramar M, portal keeper M, etc) that basically force you out of range, this talent will shine since you will be able to build HoPo and keep uptime even out of range.

The cast time is also very very short. You’d miss about 1-2 auto attacks from the cast which is very worth it. Not only that but if you’re out of range there’s no auto attacking to begin with. It’s clear that this talent can be a huge benefit for fights with heavy movement or mechanics that force you out of range.

Iwonder if the casting talent will bring back swingtimers and a playstyle similar to the old vanilla arms warior slam builds were you would use the cast isntantly after an autoattak got off to avoid interupting your autos as much as possible.

guess it remians to be seen how viable the talent is and if atoattak camage will be alrge enough to varrant delaying a cast for.

[Eurytos]

Warlock is moving up the reroll list real quick for me. Fury has moved down the list. Think I'm gonna spend some time on my DK this weekend, see if I enjoy that like I once did.

*grumble grumble*

[Swampmoose]

For a fight where you’re out of range a lot of the time the auto attacks won’t matter much. We might not even be picking the BoJ talent in BfA but either way on bosses like Portal keeper M you can have literally no downtime with the cast.

It’s not hard to figure out. On fights where there’s heavy movement (Agramar M, portal keeper M, etc) that basically force you out of range, this talent will shine since you will be able to build HoPo and keep uptime even out of range.

The cast time is also very very short. You’d miss about 1-2 auto attacks from the cast which is very worth it. Not only that but if you’re out of range there’s no auto attacking to begin with. It’s clear that this talent can be a huge benefit for fights with heavy movement or mechanics that force you out of range.

I think you're exaggerating these "huge benefits" a bit. The time's you are talking about being forced out of range last seconds. Agrammar for example, when running away from him (or toward for that matter), you can still get in BoW, and Judgement. You would have time to cast maybe 1 of these before moving back in. You would have to be standing around for a significant amount of time with nothing to do except cast this ability for it to generate more HP than CS with a cast time.

Either way, it's hard to put much thought into stuff like this that is just dug up/datamined, without making an official appearance somewhere. Who knows, maybe they were toying with bringing holy power back to holy. A cast time on a CS replacement for Ret just seems very out of place.

No.

These are ten characters alright.

Wasn't a question.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Of course it was not.
Our dear Swampy never engages himself in actual discussion, much less when he’s expected to provide actual arguments.

[Taeldorian]

I think you're exaggerating these "huge benefits" a bit. The time's you are talking about being forced out of range last seconds. Agrammar for example, when running away from him (or toward for that matter), you can still get in BoW, and Judgement. You would have time to cast maybe 1 of these before moving back in. You would have to be standing around for a significant amount of time with nothing to do except cast this ability for it to generate more HP than CS with a cast time.

Either way, it's hard to put much thought into stuff like this that is just dug up/datamined, without making an official appearance somewhere. Who knows, maybe they were toying with bringing holy power back to holy. A cast time on a CS replacement for Ret just seems very out of place.




Wasn't a question.

Has nothing to do with holy. They’re not going to bring back HP after seeing how well Holy works without it. They also said no major changes to anyone but a select few classes and that would be a very very major change. It’s for ret and it isn’t really that weird.

The cast time is 1.5 seconds. You can get in at least 2-3 when you run out for collapsing world on portal keeper, or when you run out from aggramars aoe you can get around the same maybe a bit more. Considering these things happen more than once it’d be a decent benefit. It will be lower than 1.5 withhaste im assuming as well which would make it a really fast cast timer.

However there’s still a lot we haven’t seen and not being able to test it out makes everything just guesswork. We’d really have to see how it works before deciding what’s best and what isn’t. It could be castable while moving but we wouldn’t know. So, need to see it first. Might not even make it to the live alpha build.

[Reith]

Why DID we lose Seals and Auras in the first place? Two mechanics that made our class unique and helped bring out the Paladin fantasy.

While other classes had their unique identities strengthened, we lost ours. Does the class dev team just hate Paladins or are they completely clueless on them?

Probably spent too much time on other classes and specs. They don't have as many people as they used to, unfortunately, which leads to some specs being underdeveloped (demonology, ret, probably others).

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He is right tho, paladins aren't suppose to jump around and run like crazy, with that being said paladins really need more movement especially in pvp. Pony for instance solves this problem even tho its kinda stupid, probably something like antorus teleportation heroic leap would work too, like it doesn't break the class fantasy and its a gap closer.

He is not right tho, paladins can have whatever the gameplay requires them to have to be comparable to others. They don't have to be the same, they just have to have something unique to them that is useful more often than not so they can compete. Even more so with stupid class auras because they're also competing with two other popular specs that blizzard gives more development time to (holy and prot). Long Arm of the Law was fine, Pursuit of Justice was fine, Speed of Light was objectively better than Divine Steed in almost every situation.

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Well, in the new build, Judgement goes from 12s CD to 10s CD (debuff still lasting 8s).
It's not exactly a revolution, but if the mastery stays this way, this is a good thing. Only needing around 20% haste.

Actually you'd need at least 25%.

[Nefarious Tea]

Has nothing to do with holy. They’re not going to bring back HP after seeing how well Holy works without it. They also said no major changes to anyone but a select few classes and that would be a very very major change. It’s for ret and it isn’t really that weird.

The cast time is 1.5 seconds. You can get in at least 2-3 when you run out for collapsing world on portal keeper, or when you run out from aggramars aoe you can get around the same maybe a bit more. Considering these things happen more than once it’d be a decent benefit. It will be lower than 1.5 withhaste im assuming as well which would make it a really fast cast timer.

However there’s still a lot we haven’t seen and not being able to test it out makes everything just guesswork. We’d really have to see how it works before deciding what’s best and what isn’t. It could be castable while moving but we wouldn’t know. So, need to see it first. Might not even make it to the live alpha build.

Except it's not castable while moving, so no you won't. Which was precisely the point I made yesterday but apparently you didn't understand.

EDIT: How do I know? Every ability with a cast time that is castable while moving has that written in its tooltip. On melee classes such as DH Eye Beam doesn't say it, and can't be used while moving.

[Swampmoose]

Has nothing to do with holy. They’re not going to bring back HP after seeing how well Holy works without it. They also said no major changes to anyone but a select few classes and that would be a very very major change. It’s for ret and it isn’t really that weird.

The cast time is 1.5 seconds. You can get in at least 2-3 when you run out for collapsing world on portal keeper, or when you run out from aggramars aoe you can get around the same maybe a bit more. Considering these things happen more than once it’d be a decent benefit. It will be lower than 1.5 withhaste im assuming as well which would make it a really fast cast timer.

However there’s still a lot we haven’t seen and not being able to test it out makes everything just guesswork. We’d really have to see how it works before deciding what’s best and what isn’t. It could be castable while moving but we wouldn’t know. So, need to see it first. Might not even make it to the live alpha build.

The point about toying with holy was just to say, it's not official so who knows why this even exists. It may have just been an idea on the drawing board and will never make it past that. It wasn't a comment about predictions on holy.

Anyways, back to these hypothetical uses. Collapsing world doesn't deal damage until it explodes. Melee her on the way out. On Agrammar, I built 254 holy power on a quick normal clear yesterday. 99 were from Crusader Strike (110 from Blade, 45 from wake). I time it pretty well to get out of the aoe with only about a second or a little more left. I certainly wouldn't be casting 3, maybe 2 at most if timing is shitty. So even if I had to run out 10 times and cast 2 of them each time, you're talking about less than a 1 percent increase in Holy Power generation at the cost of putting a cast timer on one of your two primary HP generators. On this example, if your cast time was 1 second with haste, you would have added quite a bit of cast time to a melee rotation in exchange for building 20 holy power. CS is also one of the weakest hitting abilities. It was 8.xx% of damage for that fight. Added cast time is just time taken away from your hard hitters. The only way it would ever be feasible is if the damage was buffed drastically to make up for the loss elsewhere.

I really don't see this making it anywhere, although until there's something official posted, it doesn't even exist to me. Interesting enough to discuss though.

[Kithelle]

My fantasy would be rolling back to WoD Ret...but I know that wont happen.

[Taeldorian]

Except it's not castable while moving, so no you won't. Which was precisely the point I made yesterday but apparently you didn't understand.

EDIT: How do I know? Every ability with a cast time that is castable while moving has that written in its tooltip. On melee classes such as DH Eye Beam doesn't say it, and can't be used while moving.

You do realize it’s not even in a live build yet right? We know literally nothing about how this ability works. You can assume either way until we actually get to test it out until then it’s up for grabs. Same with the cast time, it could be 2.5 seconds instead of 1.5 but we have no idea.

If you’re going to get aggressive about something that we know nothing about then why’re you talking about it? We’re hypothesizing, nothing is certain until we get our hands on it. Relax, I could be very wrong or I could be right and it’ll be useful. That’s also what feedback is for. If you wanna discuss shit that’s fine but don’t get aggressive because I’m guessing that this ability will have its uses and it could potentially work differently than a tooltip that’s 1 build behind (check the changelog).

Also, you’ll be able to cast it when you get out of collapsing world. Within the 3-4 seconds it takes you’ll get 2 or so casts off. It depends on how much damage it deals. We know nothing about it yet. I didn’t mean casting it while running out I meant casting it while waiting for it to expire.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Tael, you do realize that besides times you are out of melee , there are also times when you are in melee?
And the latter times are guaranteed to be much, much longer on any given fight ever.
And castable CS suddenly is not that appealing under such circumstances for a number of reasons.

Why would you justify an obviously bad ability?
Because “at least they are trying different stuff”?
Because you want Ret to have ranged moves once more?
Or is it because you are trying to be Devil’s Advocate for bzzd?
Please tell me you didn’t stoop as low as Thete.

[Deleted]

i HOPE THEY would not change anything from current state just add something and i want seals.

[GreenJesus]

If you are "fine" with ret, try not to fall asleep while DPS'ing heroic varimathras.. Our rotation is so bland. I don't get why Blizzard can't implement combos like FF14 does. Where you have to handle multiple different combos and weave in off-GCD abilities. Ret is just Builder builder modifier spender.

[Deleted]

Zandalari templar im hoping since im 16 and playing BE paladin for 10 years its about time to get troll paladin at the horde EPIC'

[Matrlx]

so i assume there is no 120 Talent tree?